[nfbcs] The Mac Beckens

Christopher Chaltain chaltain at gmail.com
Wed Jan 20 04:22:36 UTC 2016 

You're absolutely right. I think intelligent discussions on the relative 
merits of different solutions is fantastic. What I have little patience 
for though is those people who think their solution is the only solution 
for everyone else. I also don't get the people who seem to delight in 
knocking down other solutions, such as the iPhone user who revels in the 
article talking about a new Android virus or the Android user who enjoys 
the bad press Apple gets over a particular bug. There's also those 
people who don't let facts get in the way of their opinions. I agree 
though, this discussion hasn't devolved to that level.

On 19/01/16 08:25, John G Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>
> Discussing the comparative benefits of Windows and Macs is a useful and
> important topic.  There's nothing wrong with that. I am guessing you
> meant that  you don't understand why it seems to always devolve into a
> religious war.  That is indeed hard to understand.  I've been so
> impressed with the quality of this particular discussion that I've been
> telling my friends about it. We should all give ourselves a little pat
> on the back.
>
>
>
> On 01/18/2016 02:57 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
>> I'm not sure this anecdotal evidence tells us much. I've used Windows
>> PC's for almost 20 years now, and I've never had a virus. I had a few
>> that were caught as an attachment to an email before I ever tried to
>> open them and some that were caught after downloading, but like I
>> said, my systems were never affected. Obviously, that doesn't mean
>> there aren't viruses out there attacking Windows systems.
>>
>> For my part I agree with you. Choice is good. I don't understand these
>> Windows versus Mac debates. I don't cheer for the success of one
>> system over the other. I want them all to be accessible. When I had to
>> leave behind the Nokia phones I loved, I was glad there was an
>> accessible iPhone to move to. I've never had an employer that used
>> Macs, but I sure want Macs to be accessible so I'll have that option
>> in the future.
>>
>> On 18/01/16 11:18, Bryan Duarte via nfbcs wrote:
>>> I have to say two things in response to the security issues topic. I
>>> have been using a Mac for about 10 years now and not 1 single time
>>> have I ever encountered a spyware, adware, or virus which I could not
>>> very easily remove by myself. I cannot tell you how many Dell
>>> harddrives I went through due to failed hardware or viruses killing
>>> my machine. Now I will admit I was much younger back then and I did
>>> not understand security as I do now but I did pay for and use Norton
>>> anti virus and the hundred other anti virus softwares available to
>>> try to protect my machine to no avail. On my Mac I have complete
>>> access to view and remove a virus and /or spyware in a very easy
>>> manor. Applications go in the Applications folder, Downloads go in
>>> the Downloads folder, and if I ever wanted to check the resources a
>>> process is using the activity manager will show me what applications
>>> are running and I can easily find that application and remove it...
>>> There is little to no process on my Mac that I cannot
>> t
>> rack down especially with the power of the Unix bash shell.
>>>
>>> The truth is I felt like Dell was selling me a device warranty, and
>>> Apple was selling me a device. This is a very different investment
>>> for a person who relies so much on their machines preformance. If you
>>> think about it a Mac is not all that much more than a Dell or any
>>> other Windows machine when you take in consideration the cost of the
>>> machine, the warranty, a screen reader such as jaws, and the down
>>> time when that machine goes down. I know there are free screen
>>> readers available for the Windows OS but the majority of Windows
>>> users still use Jaws for Windows so it has to be considered. This is
>>> completely my opinion and in no way meant to be an attack on anyones
>>> preference or opinion. I think it is great that we are having a
>>> discussion on different operating systems because it was not too long
>>> ago that we even had access to more than one operating system. This
>>> is a good issue to have that we are becoming more and more diverse in
>>> the technology we are learning to use and able to
>> use
>> .
>>>
>>> Go Devils!
>>>
>>> Bryan Duarte
>>> ASU Software Engineering Graduate Student
>>> QwikEyes CEO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jan 18, 2016, at 9:16 AM, Jim Barbour via nfbcs
>>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One big reason that IT organizations for large companies prefer
>>>> Windows over the Mac is the amount of policy control they can have
>>>> over their Windows machines.
>>>>
>>>> Once windows machines participate in their IT eco-system (attach to
>>>> their AD domain, consume mail from their exchange servers, etc.) the
>>>> more policy objects are installed on the computer.  This means that
>>>> your computer can be scanned for mail-ware, you can be forbidden
>>>> from directly opening, receiving or sending certain types of email
>>>> attachments, have a list of web sites that you either must visit
>>>> (white listed) or cannot visit (black listed), and many other things.
>>>>
>>>> While much of this is possible on the Mac, it is much harder to
>>>> enforce on the Mac.
>>>>
>>>> When people say that Windows machines tend to get more security
>>>> problems than Macs do, they're generally talking about unmanaged or
>>>> poorly managed machines like what most of us run at home, not
>>>> rigorously managed machines like most large companies hand out to
>>>> their employees.
>>>>
>>>> Having said all that, most of my IT colleagues will bring in their
>>>> own Apple, or sometimes Linux, machines and make them work within
>>>> the enterprise anyway, so these windows policy solutions aren't
>>>> perfect. however, most non-techies won't know how to do this, so the
>>>> tyranny of the default often still wins.
>>>>
>>>> Take Care,
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 07:53:45AM -0800, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>     Well, apparently, at the current time, that has not happened, and,
>>>>> although I agree that it is inevitable, companies seem to be
>>>>> relying on it
>>>>> currently. Also, from what I have heard, Windows tends to get security
>>>>> problems more often than Macs.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Christopher Chaltain [mailto:chaltain at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:chaltain at gmail.com>]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 5:05 AM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: Nicole Torcolini; 'Steve Jacobson'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure that's true, and obviously companies and individuals can
>>>>> choose to
>>>>> run their business with whatever operating system they want to, but
>>>>> the Mac
>>>>> also has viruses and security vulnerabilities, and these will only be
>>>>> exploited more as Apple gains more market share and becomes more
>>>>> appealing
>>>>> to hackers.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 17/01/16 23:36, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> Agreed. However, there are some companies who will use Macs whenever
>>>>>> possible because they do not trust the security on Windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>> Jacobson via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:13 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter and others,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One problem not really addressed is that Windows still has a solid
>>>>>> hold within corporations.  I'm not saying that Apple doesn't exist,
>>>>>> nor am I saying that it might not increase its share, but right now,
>>>>>> Windows is pretty strong there.  Some tasks that are done with
>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>> on the job can be done on Apple products, but to try to do everything
>>>>>> with an Apple computer that is being done by others with a Windows
>>>>>> computer is an uphill battle within the workplace.  For now, we can't
>>>>>> wish Windows away any more than Microsoft can wish Apple away.  We
>>>>>> have to take both platforms seriously where accessibility is
>>>>>> concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>>>> Donahue via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 8:09 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good evening everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     For some the extra money is worth it to have your device come
>>>>>> with
>>>>> an
>>>>>> accessibility solution already built in and ready to go and not have
>>>>>> to hassle with the issues related to using Windows and associated
>>>>>> screen access systems. It's a case of convenience over cost. If one
>>>>>> can perform all computing tasks they did in Windows in the Apple
>>>>>> environment convenience will win out any day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Christopher
>>>>>> Chaltain via nfbcs
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 5:15 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True, but with PC's you get more options when it comes to price and
>>>>>> with NVDA, JAWS home license, Window-Eyes and Linux, you can get a
>>>>>> cheaper system, including screen reader, then you can with Apple.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17/01/16 14:27, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> I think one of the mainreasons people like voiceover so much is that
>>>>>>> it is included on every Apple device for no additional cost. That is
>>>>>>> non-trivial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 01/17/2016 01:55 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>>                   Here is my opinion. I will use a Mac when hell
>>>>>>>> freezes over.
>>>>>>>> What the devil is so much better about VoiceOver?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                   Stop making empty claims without supporting them.
>>>>>>>> Stop cherry picking the information that you want and ignoring the
>>>>>>>> rest. As this article
>>>>>>>> <http://qz.com/588126/theres-a-good-reason-americans-are-horrible-at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> />  says, stops using facts "much like a drunk uses a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> lamppost: for support, not illumination."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                   VoiceOver has just as many, if not more, problems
>>>>>>>> as other screen readers. I know because many of my coworkers use
>>>>>>>> Macs, and Apple is introducing more bugs than they are fixing when
>>>>>>>> it comes to internet use.
>>>>>>>> And they have no pressure to fix the bugs because, on the Mac,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is no competition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                   Microsoft has a screen reader; it is called
>>>>>>>> Narrator.
>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>> heard that it is better on newer versions of Windows, which I have
>>>>>>>> not tried, but, from my experience, it does not work worth a
>>>>>>>> damn. I
>>>>>>>> know that Microsoft has some kind of deal with Windows Eyes, but it
>>>>>>>> does not work well with complex websites. Also, if Microsoft will
>>>>>>>> not even consider accessibility when making their products, and do
>>>>>>>> stuff like put the ribbon everywhere, why would they be interested
>>>>>>>> in maintaining a screen reader?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>>>>>> Donahue via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>>>> Cc: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                   If Microsoft would do with its Windows screen
>>>>>>>> reader what Apple has done with the MAC and its iDevices perhaps we
>>>>>>>> would have fewer issues with compatibility and accessibility tools
>>>>>>>> could be kept up-to-date more easily and with little to no cost.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps some MAC and iOS users could weigh in on this issue with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> petition and share their experiences with accessing it under iOS
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> oSX. Perhaps in another few years we'll be 100% Mac and iOS
>>>>>>>> users in
>>>>>>>> this house-hold.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [ <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain
>>>>>>>> via nfbcs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:35 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA and JAWS [was "Re: Petition Asking
>>>>>>>> President Obama To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA
>>>>>>>> Internet Regulations"]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The idea that anything that's three years old is antiquated is
>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure quite a few people on this list are using Office2013 or
>>>>>>>> Office 2010 if not something older. Microsoft and many companies
>>>>>>>> support products for more than three years. People used Windows XP
>>>>>>>> for ten years and beyond.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I never saw anything on this list that the problem accessing this
>>>>>>>> petition has to do with the version of JAWS being used. I get the
>>>>>>>> impression that people using more recent versions of JAWS are
>>>>>>>> experiencing the same problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, I didn't see anything in this thread that JAWS 13
>>>>>>>> can't do the job and can't be used affectively for all sorts of
>>>>>>>> tasks. It seems to me that people are just jumping to conclusions
>>>>>>>> and using this message to make a point rather than help a JAWS user
>>>>>>>> solve their problem and submit this petition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously, I can't tell people what words they can and cannot use,
>>>>>>>> but I think information can be provided in a more sympathetic tone.
>>>>>>>> I'm sure most people running JAWS 13 would like to upgrade, and
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> don't need to have their faces rubbed in the fact that they can't
>>>>>>>> afford an update.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No one may have intended to make anyone feel bad but communication
>>>>>>>> is a two way street, and people need to take into account not just
>>>>>>>> how their words are intended but how they may be received.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 16/01/16 22:08, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The unfortunate reality is that you simply *can't* do everything
>>>>>>>>> with one
>>>>>>>> screen reader. There's certainly no reason not to have more than
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> if you can afford one, because NVDA is free software. Both
>>>>>>>> definitions of free.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Window-Eyes is even no cost if you have Office 2010 or newer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The other unfortunate reality is that Jaws 13.0 *is* antiquated,
>>>>>>>>> and that
>>>>>>>> isn't meant to make anyone feel bad, it's just a fact. You really
>>>>>>>> can't use a three year old version of anything and expect it to
>>>>>>>> behave correctly with something that's newer. It just isn't
>>>>>>>> realistic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>>>>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>>>>>>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>>>>>>>> Email:  <mailto:buddy at brannan.name> buddy at brannan.name
>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 10:55 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree that it's good to have NVDA in your tool box
>>>>>>>>>> regardless of
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> version of JAWS you're running, but it isn't always possible for
>>>>>>>> people to keep up with a product like JAWS, and using two different
>>>>>>>> screen readers can be frustrating. I think it's OK to suggest JAWS,
>>>>>>>> but there's no need to make anyone feel bad by calling the tools
>>>>>>>> they can afford to use "antiquated".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 16/01/16 15:18, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> This is why when jaws users know they're not going to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>> update jaws it's a good idea to have installed nvda to do the
>>>>>>>>>>> jobs their antiquated version of jaws can no longer do.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:03:52
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Mike Freeman via nfbcs < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Mike Freeman < <mailto:k7uij at panix.com> k7uij at panix.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To
>>>>>>>>>>>> Direct the
>>>>>>>>>>>>       JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>>>>>>> excess
>>>>>>>>>>>> ability does not imply backward compatibility. Your version of
>>>>>>>>>>>> jaws is several versions out of date. I suspect it may be part
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:52, Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> submit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the num pad, nothing happens.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jen
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To:  <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blind launched a petition (the link to which is provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>> below)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling on the Obama administration promptly to release the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> long-awaited ADA internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Americans with Disabilities Act (way back in 2010),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> President Obama said that he would issue regulations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementing the requirement for accessible websites, noting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they would be "the most important updates to the ADA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>> original enactment."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> President Obama now says that the regulations will not be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> released until 2018, after he leaves office.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online
>>>>>>>>>>>>> courses, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's expressed commitment to civil rights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are), point your browser to this link.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> jus>
>>>>>>>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tice-promp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users running Internet Explorer have reported a problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>> "sign"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> button when attempting to add their name. Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> solutions to help mitigate that problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.            Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minus), and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pressing  the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> button will be selected.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.            Alternatively, you can sign the petition
>>>>>>>>>>>>> using the
>>>>>>>> Mozilla
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Firefox browser.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as the iPad or iPhone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Curtis Chong, President
>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
>>>>> software.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>> .na>
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.n
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> .co>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gmail.c
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> si.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40waveca
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ble.co
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gmail.co
>>>>>>
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com
>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/bjduarte%40asu.edu <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/bjduarte%40asu.edu>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gmail.com

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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