[nfbcs] Help for older students

Wed Jul 20 20:04:07 UTC 2016

Hi,

Too many years have passed to be concerned about young toes and the jobs
list rarely if ever sends positions in mo.
Bryan

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cricket Bidleman
via nfbcs
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 2:39 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Cricket Bidleman
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students

A couple of things. Firstly, good points. However, do be careful what
you say. There are young people on this list. I'm not offended, but
others invariably are or will be when they read some of the things
that some people have said. Second, this is becoming less and less
about computer science as the thread continues. There is an NFB Jobs
list, and the people on that list might be able to provide you with
even more insight. Thanks.

Best,
Cricket Bidleman

On 7/20/16, Andy B. via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> A large part of older people's problems are the values some companies put
> into their job positions. For example, what person wants to go to school
> for
> 6 years, build up a $90,000 student loan debt to be told they are good for
> nothing but a 4 year undergrad degree and $10/hr without benefits? Some
> younger people might fall for the trick, but seriously? If the student
> succeeds well at school, they are worth more than a part time help desk
job
> for $10/hr. Either the workforce needs reform or the educational field
> does.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 2:20 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: [nfbcs] Help for older students
>
> Hi Brian S.
> I understand your frustration.  I think it's very difficult for an older
> person to find any kind of tech job.  Companies figure an older person
> won't
> be up on the latest whatever, and they'd rather pay some young person
> peanuts and work them 20-hour days.  Me, I have other things to do than
> work, and I have expenses, and need health insurance.
> I think what people are discussing would help anyone trying to learn a new
> language, or make a career change, but I think there are other systemic
> social problems hitting older people looking for something better than
> unskilled work.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:55 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Bryan Schulz
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division
>
> Hi,
>
> I would like info and thoughts of how older people can get into cs/help
> desk
> jobs and am so sick of the nfb only being interested in young students.
> The situation of someone going down the technical college road and only
> ending up with an associates degree isn't fun and gaining certs hasn't
> helped at all.
> Bryan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Webster
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:20 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Kathryn Webster; 'Jim Barbour'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division
>
> Debee and all,
>
> 	I would be exceedingly interested in contributing to this. I'd like
> to echo Jim's suggestion of a wiki as that would be easy to maintain,
edit,
> and expand.
> In terms of publicity, I'm eager to take the lead on marketing any new
> intiatives to help blind students through our master database and website.
> Collaboration amongst divisions is a significant goal of mine, and I see
> the
> CS Division as an ideal place to continue that effort. Our student
division
> leaders, particularly Bryan Duarte and myself, are both very in touch with
> CS and student issues, so there is some place for us to start.
> If our CS Division leadership chooses to move forward with this idea,
count
> me in on all accounts. I am more than happy to help with whatever is
> necessary in kickstarting this effort.
>
> What a fabulous idea!
>
> Best,
> Kathryn
>
> Kathryn Webster
> President | National Association of Blind Students
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:07 PM
> To: Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
> Cc: Jim Barbour
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division
>
> I think Debee has a great idea.  I actually think it's a very good
> application for a wiki.
>
> One person won't know everything about what is accessible and what isn't,
> even in the developer and IT focused worlds.
>
> If we agree, I'd be happy to work with Curtis W on setting up a wiki and
> start populating it.  I'd like to hear from folks that we think this is
> worth collaborating on.
>
> Jim
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 04:54:45PM +0000, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
> wrote:
>> >I'm interested in hearing from folks on this list about things they'd
> like to see the NFB in Computer Science do in the future
>> I'm changing the subject line so people won't skip over it.
>>
>> I think one of the most crucial things is to put together an online
>> paper,
> that is updated regularly, that spells out what one needs to know to get
> started in any computer science related field. This would be different
from
> what sighted people need to know; it would focus on which current tools
are
> accessible, which aren't, and include the resources such as books or
online
> training that were discussed over in the other thread.
>>
>> I work at a college, and I know new blind students get stymied by the
> simplest things because they lack experience and so do their sighted
> helpers. For example, I heard of a student who dropped a Linux class which
> was all command-line based, because the rest of the class was using telnet
> built in to Windows to log in to the class server. Not sure why they used
> anything this insecure, but I wasn't administering that system and heard
> about it third-hand. And JAWS was not accurately reading what appeared
> onscreen, nor was it tracking the cursor when the student tried to use
> Emacs. As a Linux-head I had to laugh a bit about the ignorance that lead
> the student and his professor to conclude the coursework was inaccessible,
> but it's not a laughing matter, when a beginner doesn't know where to
turn.
>
>>
>> The document could have sections: What you need to know to Learn C++"
>> or
> "What you need to know in your first Visual Basic Class" etc.
>>
>> I also think we need to nail down and possibly explain the reasons
>> behind
> the inaccessibility of many current tools. For example, if the QT4 library
> is used in creating interfaces, screen readers only partially identify or
> even recognize the existence of controls. If in learning SQL the
difference
> between inner joins and outer joins is explained through the use of
> diagrams
> only, then it's not going to make sense to any blind student. That caused
> me, an experience programmer to drop a course just last year. I would have
> loved to be able to find a paper that outlined where I could go to locate
a
> book that explained these concepts in plain English.
>>
>> Another thought about UML: wild idea here, but how about digital
>> tactile
> diagrams of the symbols that could be embossed? I know different embossers
> have different codes for doing graphics, but someone who knows more about
> this than I could perhaps take the lead here. A student could simply
emboss
> the shapes, or get their school to do it, and then using post-it note glue
> which comes in sticks, post their charts on a classroom wall, doing
> homework
> along with a sighted class.
>>
>> One way in which I can contribute is writing, and I'd be happy to take
>> the
> lead on that part.
>>
>> --Debee
>>
>>
>>
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