[nfbcs] Help for older students

Thu Jul 21 18:12:28 UTC 2016

I concur.

Moreover, one of the problems facing anyone wishing to learn new computer
languages/techniques/etc. on his/her own is that even the best books, as
from Bookshare, don't have good (if any) descriptions of diagrams etc. and
we of the blindness community have not come up with an acceptable way to
insert such descriptions without violating copyright. Thus, it would appear
that in many instances, the only way to really learn topics from the current
CS curriculum is to take the CS classes and use old-fashioned techniques
such as help from classmates, readers and professors to gain an
understanding of the material as one did in one's undergrad/graduate days.

Put another way, where have all the wonderful people at facilities such as
Learning Ally gone who made beautiful raised diagrams for physics texts
etc.?

Additionally, as Curtis Chong has pointed out, a good bit of the newer
software used to program in odd languages these days isn't really meant to
be worked with efficiently without a mouse. So where does this leave some of
us ancients who would be perfectly happy to learn new languages and
techniques but to whom concepts like a "story board" are something out of
the Land of Oz?

Mike Freeman

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
via nfbcs
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:20 AM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Cc: Tracy Carcione
Subject: [nfbcs] Help for older students

Hi Brian S.
I understand your frustration.  I think it's very difficult for an older
person to find any kind of tech job.  Companies figure an older person won't
be up on the latest whatever, and they'd rather pay some young person
peanuts and work them 20-hour days.  Me, I have other things to do than
work, and I have expenses, and need health insurance. 
I think what people are discussing would help anyone trying to learn a new
language, or make a career change, but I think there are other systemic
social problems hitting older people looking for something better than
unskilled work.
Tracy

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz via
nfbcs
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:55 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Cc: Bryan Schulz
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division

Hi,

I would like info and thoughts of how older people can get into cs/help desk
jobs and am so sick of the nfb only being interested in young students.
The situation of someone going down the technical college road and only
ending up with an associates degree isn't fun and gaining certs hasn't
helped at all.
Bryan

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Webster
via nfbcs
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:20 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Cc: Kathryn Webster; 'Jim Barbour'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division

Debee and all,

	I would be exceedingly interested in contributing to this. I'd like
to echo Jim's suggestion of a wiki as that would be easy to maintain, edit,
and expand.
In terms of publicity, I'm eager to take the lead on marketing any new
intiatives to help blind students through our master database and website.
Collaboration amongst divisions is a significant goal of mine, and I see the
CS Division as an ideal place to continue that effort. Our student division
leaders, particularly Bryan Duarte and myself, are both very in touch with
CS and student issues, so there is some place for us to start.
If our CS Division leadership chooses to move forward with this idea, count
me in on all accounts. I am more than happy to help with whatever is
necessary in kickstarting this effort.

What a fabulous idea!

Best,
Kathryn

Kathryn Webster
President | National Association of Blind Students

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour via
nfbcs
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:07 PM
To: Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
Cc: Jim Barbour
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division

I think Debee has a great idea.  I actually think it's a very good
application for a wiki.

One person won't know everything about what is accessible and what isn't,
even in the developer and IT focused worlds.

If we agree, I'd be happy to work with Curtis W on setting up a wiki and
start populating it.  I'd like to hear from folks that we think this is
worth collaborating on.

Jim

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 04:54:45PM +0000, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs wrote:
> >I'm interested in hearing from folks on this list about things they'd
like to see the NFB in Computer Science do in the future
> I'm changing the subject line so people won't skip over it.
> 
> I think one of the most crucial things is to put together an online 
> paper,
that is updated regularly, that spells out what one needs to know to get
started in any computer science related field. This would be different from
what sighted people need to know; it would focus on which current tools are
accessible, which aren't, and include the resources such as books or online
training that were discussed over in the other thread.
> 
> I work at a college, and I know new blind students get stymied by the
simplest things because they lack experience and so do their sighted
helpers. For example, I heard of a student who dropped a Linux class which
was all command-line based, because the rest of the class was using telnet
built in to Windows to log in to the class server. Not sure why they used
anything this insecure, but I wasn't administering that system and heard
about it third-hand. And JAWS was not accurately reading what appeared
onscreen, nor was it tracking the cursor when the student tried to use
Emacs. As a Linux-head I had to laugh a bit about the ignorance that lead
the student and his professor to conclude the coursework was inaccessible,
but it's not a laughing matter, when a beginner doesn't know where to turn. 
> 
> The document could have sections: What you need to know to Learn C++" 
> or
"What you need to know in your first Visual Basic Class" etc. 
> 
> I also think we need to nail down and possibly explain the reasons 
> behind
the inaccessibility of many current tools. For example, if the QT4 library
is used in creating interfaces, screen readers only partially identify or
even recognize the existence of controls. If in learning SQL the difference
between inner joins and outer joins is explained through the use of diagrams
only, then it's not going to make sense to any blind student. That caused
me, an experience programmer to drop a course just last year. I would have
loved to be able to find a paper that outlined where I could go to locate a
book that explained these concepts in plain English.
> 
> Another thought about UML: wild idea here, but how about digital 
> tactile
diagrams of the symbols that could be embossed? I know different embossers
have different codes for doing graphics, but someone who knows more about
this than I could perhaps take the lead here. A student could simply emboss
the shapes, or get their school to do it, and then using post-it note glue
which comes in sticks, post their charts on a classroom wall, doing homework
along with a sighted class.
> 
> One way in which I can contribute is writing, and I'd be happy to take 
> the
lead on that part.  
> 
> --Debee
> 
>  
> 
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