[nfbcs] Help for older students

Thu Jul 21 21:48:00 UTC 2016

There are quite a few books now that depend on images that of course are missing from the daisy text only versions of their books. A good example is the "Head First" series that teaches you programming languages from the ground up. The code is all pictures.
Don't bother trying to learn from anything in the Head First series on Bookshare.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:21 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Brian Buhrow; Mike Freeman
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students

	hello Mike.  I'm not familiar with the concept that says that if Bookshare provided descriptions of diagrams or charts in its books, it would be inviolation of copyright law.  Is that really true?  Is the problem the copyright law or the fact that providing descriptions of diagrams and charts takes human power, something organizations like Bookshare don't have a lot of.

	This was really brought home to me during the Bookshare  presentation at the NFB-CS meeting this year in Orlando.  The issue of incorrect math equations was brought up.  The presenter, who's name escapes me at the moment, said they would bring the issue up with their publishers in a bid to get it addressed.  I'm in favor of getting the problem fixed at the source, but I remembrer having the thought that Bookshare is really geting out of the business of curating their collection and simply acting as a distributor for nonvisual access on the publisher's behalf.

-Brian
On Jul 21, 11:12am, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
} Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students } I concur.
}
} Moreover, one of the problems facing anyone wishing to learn new computer } languages/techniques/etc. on his/her own is that even the best books, as } from Bookshare, don't have good (if any) descriptions of diagrams etc. and } we of the blindness community have not come up with an acceptable way to } insert such descriptions without violating copyright. Thus, it would appear } that in many instances, the only way to really learn topics from the current } CS curriculum is to take the CS classes and use old-fashioned techniques } such as help from classmates, readers and professors to gain an } understanding of the material as one did in one's undergrad/graduate days.
}
} Put another way, where have all the wonderful people at facilities such as } Learning Ally gone who made beautiful raised diagrams for physics texts } etc.?
}
} Additionally, as Curtis Chong has pointed out, a good bit of the newer } software used to program in odd languages these days isn't really meant to } be worked with efficiently without a mouse. So where does this leave some of } us ancients who would be perfectly happy to learn new languages and } techniques but to whom concepts like a "story board" are something out of } the Land of Oz?
}
} Mike Freeman
}
}
} -----Original Message-----
} From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione } via nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:20 AM } To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
} Cc: Tracy Carcione
} Subject: [nfbcs] Help for older students } } Hi Brian S.
} I understand your frustration.  I think it's very difficult for an older } person to find any kind of tech job.  Companies figure an older person won't } be up on the latest whatever, and they'd rather pay some young person } peanuts and work them 20-hour days.  Me, I have other things to do than } work, and I have expenses, and need health insurance. 
} I think what people are discussing would help anyone trying to learn a new } language, or make a career change, but I think there are other systemic } social problems hitting older people looking for something better than } unskilled work.
} Tracy
}
}
} -----Original Message-----
} From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz via } nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:55 PM } To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
} Cc: Bryan Schulz
} Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } Hi, } } I would like info and thoughts of how older people can get into cs/help desk } jobs and am so sick of the nfb only being interested in young students.
} The situation of someone going down the technical college road and only } ending up with an associates degree isn't fun and gaining certs hasn't } helped at all.
} Bryan
}
} -----Original Message-----
} From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Webster } via nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:20 PM } To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
} Cc: Kathryn Webster; 'Jim Barbour'
} Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } Debee and all, } 
} 	I would be exceedingly interested in contributing to this. I'd like
} to echo Jim's suggestion of a wiki as that would be easy to maintain, edit, } and expand.
} In terms of publicity, I'm eager to take the lead on marketing any new } intiatives to help blind students through our master database and website.
} Collaboration amongst divisions is a significant goal of mine, and I see the } CS Division as an ideal place to continue that effort. Our student division } leaders, particularly Bryan Duarte and myself, are both very in touch with } CS and student issues, so there is some place for us to start.
} If our CS Division leadership chooses to move forward with this idea, count } me in on all accounts. I am more than happy to help with whatever is } necessary in kickstarting this effort.
}
} What a fabulous idea!
}
} Best,
} Kathryn
}
} Kathryn Webster
} President | National Association of Blind Students } } } -----Original Message----- } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour via } nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:07 PM } To: Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs } Cc: Jim Barbour } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } I think Debee has a great idea.  I actually think it's a very good } application for a wiki.
}
} One person won't know everything about what is accessible and what isn't, } even in the developer and IT focused worlds.
}
} If we agree, I'd be happy to work with Curtis W on setting up a wiki and } start populating it.  I'd like to hear from folks that we think this is } worth collaborating on.
}
} Jim
}
} On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 04:54:45PM +0000, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs wrote:
} > >I'm interested in hearing from folks on this list about things they'd } like to see the NFB in Computer Science do in the future } > I'm changing the subject line so people won't skip over it.
} >
} > I think one of the most crucial things is to put together an online } > paper, } that is updated regularly, that spells out what one needs to know to get } started in any computer science related field. This would be different from } what sighted people need to know; it would focus on which current tools are } accessible, which aren't, and include the resources such as books or online } training that were discussed over in the other thread.
} >
} > I work at a college, and I know new blind students get stymied by the } simplest things because they lack experience and so do their sighted } helpers. For example, I heard of a student who dropped a Linux class which } was all command-line based, because the rest of the class was using telnet } built in to Windows to log in to the class server. Not sure why they used } anything this insecure, but I wasn't administering that system and heard } about it third-hand. And JAWS was not accurately reading what appeared } onscreen, nor was it tracking the cursor when the student tried to use } Emacs. As a Linux-head I had to laugh a bit about the ignorance that lead } the student and his professor to conclude the coursework was inaccessible, } but it's not a laughing matter, when a beginner doesn't know where to turn. 
} >
} > The document could have sections: What you need to know to Learn C++" 
} > or
} "What you need to know in your first Visual Basic Class" etc. 
} >
} > I also think we need to nail down and possibly explain the reasons } > behind } the inaccessibility of many current tools. For example, if the QT4 library } is used in creating interfaces, screen readers only partially identify or } even recognize the existence of controls. If in learning SQL the difference } between inner joins and outer joins is explained through the use of diagrams } only, then it's not going to make sense to any blind student. That caused } me, an experience programmer to drop a course just last year. I would have } loved to be able to find a paper that outlined where I could go to locate a } book that explained these concepts in plain English.
} >
} > Another thought about UML: wild idea here, but how about digital } > tactile } diagrams of the symbols that could be embossed? I know different embossers } have different codes for doing graphics, but someone who knows more about } this than I could perhaps take the lead here. A student could simply emboss } the shapes, or get their school to do it, and then using post-it note glue } which comes in sticks, post their charts on a classroom wall, doing homework } along with a sighted class.
} >
} > One way in which I can contribute is writing, and I'd be happy to take } > the } lead on that part.  
} >
} > --Debee
} >
} >
} >
} > _______________________________________________
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>-- End of excerpt from Mike Freeman via nfbcs

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