[nfbcs] Help for older students

Fri Jul 22 21:03:58 UTC 2016

There may not be an issue of copyright. However, I have seen the issue
raised in connection with providing standardized diagram descriptions for
Bookshare books.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Forzano
via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 4:39 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Michael Forzano
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students

As far as I know there isn't any issue with respect to copyright and
descriptions of diagrams. Bookshare is run by volunteers and I would
expect you need a technical person to describe technical diagrams
accurately.

However, if we're talking about programming and contributing to open
source projects, I don't see why diagrams would be necessary. While
it's true that a lot of the large tech companies target younger
people, I think what they are really looking for is people who stand
out. If you go to school, major in CS and do nothing else, you may
have a degree, but would not have experience designing, coding and
managing production systems. I've seen people graduate with a CS
degree and decent enough grades, but they hadn't done any side
projects and had a lot of difficulty finding a job as a result.

When I was in college, I started RS Games, the popular online gaming
network for the blind which a lot of you probably know of. I put it on
my resume, and was able to land an internship at a major company here
in Seattle where I now work full time. Contributing to open source
projects could serve a similar purpose, as coming up with a realistic
idea for your own project can be difficult.

Mike

On 7/21/16, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> There are quite a few books now that depend on images that of course are
> missing from the daisy text only versions of their books. A good example
is
> the "Head First" series that teaches you programming languages from the
> ground up. The code is all pictures.
> Don't bother trying to learn from anything in the Head First series on
> Bookshare.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow
via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:21 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: Brian Buhrow; Mike Freeman
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students
>
> 	hello Mike.  I'm not familiar with the concept that says that if
Bookshare
> provided descriptions of diagrams or charts in its books, it would be
> inviolation of copyright law.  Is that really true?  Is the problem the
> copyright law or the fact that providing descriptions of diagrams and
charts
> takes human power, something organizations like Bookshare don't have a lot
> of.
>
> 	This was really brought home to me during the Bookshare
presentation at
> the NFB-CS meeting this year in Orlando.  The issue of incorrect math
> equations was brought up.  The presenter, who's name escapes me at the
> moment, said they would bring the issue up with their publishers in a bid
to
> get it addressed.  I'm in favor of getting the problem fixed at the
source,
> but I remembrer having the thought that Bookshare is really geting out of
> the business of curating their collection and simply acting as a
distributor
> for nonvisual access on the publisher's behalf.
>
> -Brian
> On Jul 21, 11:12am, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
> } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students } I concur.
> }
> } Moreover, one of the problems facing anyone wishing to learn new
computer
> } languages/techniques/etc. on his/her own is that even the best books, as
}
> from Bookshare, don't have good (if any) descriptions of diagrams etc. and
}
> we of the blindness community have not come up with an acceptable way to }
> insert such descriptions without violating copyright. Thus, it would
appear
> } that in many instances, the only way to really learn topics from the
> current } CS curriculum is to take the CS classes and use old-fashioned
> techniques } such as help from classmates, readers and professors to gain
an
> } understanding of the material as one did in one's undergrad/graduate
> days.
> }
> } Put another way, where have all the wonderful people at facilities such
as
> } Learning Ally gone who made beautiful raised diagrams for physics texts
}
> etc.?
> }
> } Additionally, as Curtis Chong has pointed out, a good bit of the newer }
> software used to program in odd languages these days isn't really meant to
}
> be worked with efficiently without a mouse. So where does this leave some
of
> } us ancients who would be perfectly happy to learn new languages and }
> techniques but to whom concepts like a "story board" are something out of
}
> the Land of Oz?
> }
> } Mike Freeman
> }
> }
> } -----Original Message-----
> } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
Carcione
> } via nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:20 AM } To: 'NFB in
Computer
> Science Mailing List'
> } Cc: Tracy Carcione
> } Subject: [nfbcs] Help for older students } } Hi Brian S.
> } I understand your frustration.  I think it's very difficult for an older
}
> person to find any kind of tech job.  Companies figure an older person
won't
> } be up on the latest whatever, and they'd rather pay some young person }
> peanuts and work them 20-hour days.  Me, I have other things to do than }
> work, and I have expenses, and need health insurance.
> } I think what people are discussing would help anyone trying to learn a
new
> } language, or make a career change, but I think there are other systemic
}
> social problems hitting older people looking for something better than }
> unskilled work.
> } Tracy
> }
> }
> } -----Original Message-----
> } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
> via } nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:55 PM } To: 'NFB in
Computer
> Science Mailing List'
> } Cc: Bryan Schulz
> } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } Hi, } } I would
> like info and thoughts of how older people can get into cs/help desk }
jobs
> and am so sick of the nfb only being interested in young students.
> } The situation of someone going down the technical college road and only
}
> ending up with an associates degree isn't fun and gaining certs hasn't }
> helped at all.
> } Bryan
> }
> } -----Original Message-----
> } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Webster
> } via nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:20 PM } To: 'NFB in
Computer
> Science Mailing List'
> } Cc: Kathryn Webster; 'Jim Barbour'
> } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } Debee and all, }
> } 	I would be exceedingly interested in contributing to this. I'd like
> } to echo Jim's suggestion of a wiki as that would be easy to maintain,
> edit, } and expand.
> } In terms of publicity, I'm eager to take the lead on marketing any new }
> intiatives to help blind students through our master database and website.
> } Collaboration amongst divisions is a significant goal of mine, and I see
> the } CS Division as an ideal place to continue that effort. Our student
> division } leaders, particularly Bryan Duarte and myself, are both very in
> touch with } CS and student issues, so there is some place for us to
start.
> } If our CS Division leadership chooses to move forward with this idea,
> count } me in on all accounts. I am more than happy to help with whatever
is
> } necessary in kickstarting this effort.
> }
> } What a fabulous idea!
> }
> } Best,
> } Kathryn
> }
> } Kathryn Webster
> } President | National Association of Blind Students } } } -----Original
> Message----- } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Jim Barbour via } nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:07 PM } To:
> Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs } Cc: Jim Barbour } Subject: Re: [nfbcs]
Future
> goals for the division } } I think Debee has a great idea.  I actually
think
> it's a very good } application for a wiki.
> }
> } One person won't know everything about what is accessible and what
isn't,
> } even in the developer and IT focused worlds.
> }
> } If we agree, I'd be happy to work with Curtis W on setting up a wiki and
}
> start populating it.  I'd like to hear from folks that we think this is }
> worth collaborating on.
> }
> } Jim
> }
> } On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 04:54:45PM +0000, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
> wrote:
> } > >I'm interested in hearing from folks on this list about things they'd
}
> like to see the NFB in Computer Science do in the future } > I'm changing
> the subject line so people won't skip over it.
> } >
> } > I think one of the most crucial things is to put together an online }
>
> paper, } that is updated regularly, that spells out what one needs to know
> to get } started in any computer science related field. This would be
> different from } what sighted people need to know; it would focus on which
> current tools are } accessible, which aren't, and include the resources
such
> as books or online } training that were discussed over in the other
thread.
> } >
> } > I work at a college, and I know new blind students get stymied by the
}
> simplest things because they lack experience and so do their sighted }
> helpers. For example, I heard of a student who dropped a Linux class which
}
> was all command-line based, because the rest of the class was using telnet
}
> built in to Windows to log in to the class server. Not sure why they used
}
> anything this insecure, but I wasn't administering that system and heard }
> about it third-hand. And JAWS was not accurately reading what appeared }
> onscreen, nor was it tracking the cursor when the student tried to use }
> Emacs. As a Linux-head I had to laugh a bit about the ignorance that lead
}
> the student and his professor to conclude the coursework was inaccessible,
}
> but it's not a laughing matter, when a beginner doesn't know where to
turn.
>
> } >
> } > The document could have sections: What you need to know to Learn C++"
> } > or
> } "What you need to know in your first Visual Basic Class" etc.
> } >
> } > I also think we need to nail down and possibly explain the reasons } >
> behind } the inaccessibility of many current tools. For example, if the
QT4
> library } is used in creating interfaces, screen readers only partially
> identify or } even recognize the existence of controls. If in learning SQL
> the difference } between inner joins and outer joins is explained through
> the use of diagrams } only, then it's not going to make sense to any blind
> student. That caused } me, an experience programmer to drop a course just
> last year. I would have } loved to be able to find a paper that outlined
> where I could go to locate a } book that explained these concepts in plain
> English.
> } >
> } > Another thought about UML: wild idea here, but how about digital } >
> tactile } diagrams of the symbols that could be embossed? I know different
> embossers } have different codes for doing graphics, but someone who knows
> more about } this than I could perhaps take the lead here. A student could
> simply emboss } the shapes, or get their school to do it, and then using
> post-it note glue } which comes in sticks, post their charts on a
classroom
> wall, doing homework } along with a sighted class.
> } >
> } > One way in which I can contribute is writing, and I'd be happy to take
}
>> the } lead on that part.
> } >
> } > --Debee
> } >
> } >
> } >
> } > _______________________________________________
> } > nfbcs mailing list
> } > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> } >
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