[nfbcs] Help for older students

[charleseblack]

Not to mention that each perception of the description is based on the
interpreter. Therefore, one person may understand something one way while
another may understand the same description in a total other way. A cup with
half of its volume consumed with a liquid; is it half full or half empty?


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Kearney via
nfbcs
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 9:20 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Greg Kearney <gkearney at gmail.com>; Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students

There is no copyright issues in describing visual elements in book in
alternative media formats. The bigger issue is that such description are
very labour intensive to produce which is why they are seldom done.

Many years ago when their production standards were higher you would get
such descriptions in RFB&D book and you might even get raised diagrams as
well, anyone but me remember those?

>From time to time you will still get image descriptions in NLS books even
today.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
#320, 185-911 Yates Street
Victoria, BC V8V 4Y9
CANADA
Email: info at cbtbc.org
Web: www.cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkearney at gmail.com
Phone: +1 408-780-6535

> On Jul 22, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Mike Freeman via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
> 
> There may not be an issue of copyright. However, I have seen the issue
> raised in connection with providing standardized diagram descriptions for
> Bookshare books.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Forzano
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 4:39 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: Michael Forzano
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students
> 
> As far as I know there isn't any issue with respect to copyright and
> descriptions of diagrams. Bookshare is run by volunteers and I would
> expect you need a technical person to describe technical diagrams
> accurately.
> 
> However, if we're talking about programming and contributing to open
> source projects, I don't see why diagrams would be necessary. While
> it's true that a lot of the large tech companies target younger
> people, I think what they are really looking for is people who stand
> out. If you go to school, major in CS and do nothing else, you may
> have a degree, but would not have experience designing, coding and
> managing production systems. I've seen people graduate with a CS
> degree and decent enough grades, but they hadn't done any side
> projects and had a lot of difficulty finding a job as a result.
> 
> When I was in college, I started RS Games, the popular online gaming
> network for the blind which a lot of you probably know of. I put it on
> my resume, and was able to land an internship at a major company here
> in Seattle where I now work full time. Contributing to open source
> projects could serve a similar purpose, as coming up with a realistic
> idea for your own project can be difficult.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On 7/21/16, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> There are quite a few books now that depend on images that of course are
>> missing from the daisy text only versions of their books. A good example
> is
>> the "Head First" series that teaches you programming languages from the
>> ground up. The code is all pictures.
>> Don't bother trying to learn from anything in the Head First series on
>> Bookshare.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow
> via
>> nfbcs
>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:21 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: Brian Buhrow; Mike Freeman
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students
>> 
>> 	hello Mike.  I'm not familiar with the concept that says that if
> Bookshare
>> provided descriptions of diagrams or charts in its books, it would be
>> inviolation of copyright law.  Is that really true?  Is the problem the
>> copyright law or the fact that providing descriptions of diagrams and
> charts
>> takes human power, something organizations like Bookshare don't have a
lot
>> of.
>> 
>> 	This was really brought home to me during the Bookshare
> presentation at
>> the NFB-CS meeting this year in Orlando.  The issue of incorrect math
>> equations was brought up.  The presenter, who's name escapes me at the
>> moment, said they would bring the issue up with their publishers in a bid
> to
>> get it addressed.  I'm in favor of getting the problem fixed at the
> source,
>> but I remembrer having the thought that Bookshare is really geting out of
>> the business of curating their collection and simply acting as a
> distributor
>> for nonvisual access on the publisher's behalf.
>> 
>> -Brian
>> On Jul 21, 11:12am, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
>> } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Help for older students } I concur.
>> }
>> } Moreover, one of the problems facing anyone wishing to learn new
> computer
>> } languages/techniques/etc. on his/her own is that even the best books,
as
> }
>> from Bookshare, don't have good (if any) descriptions of diagrams etc.
and
> }
>> we of the blindness community have not come up with an acceptable way to
}
>> insert such descriptions without violating copyright. Thus, it would
> appear
>> } that in many instances, the only way to really learn topics from the
>> current } CS curriculum is to take the CS classes and use old-fashioned
>> techniques } such as help from classmates, readers and professors to gain
> an
>> } understanding of the material as one did in one's undergrad/graduate
>> days.
>> }
>> } Put another way, where have all the wonderful people at facilities such
> as
>> } Learning Ally gone who made beautiful raised diagrams for physics texts
> }
>> etc.?
>> }
>> } Additionally, as Curtis Chong has pointed out, a good bit of the newer
}
>> software used to program in odd languages these days isn't really meant
to
> }
>> be worked with efficiently without a mouse. So where does this leave some
> of
>> } us ancients who would be perfectly happy to learn new languages and }
>> techniques but to whom concepts like a "story board" are something out of
> }
>> the Land of Oz?
>> }
>> } Mike Freeman
>> }
>> }
>> } -----Original Message-----
>> } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> Carcione
>> } via nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:20 AM } To: 'NFB in
> Computer
>> Science Mailing List'
>> } Cc: Tracy Carcione
>> } Subject: [nfbcs] Help for older students } } Hi Brian S.
>> } I understand your frustration.  I think it's very difficult for an
older
> }
>> person to find any kind of tech job.  Companies figure an older person
> won't
>> } be up on the latest whatever, and they'd rather pay some young person }
>> peanuts and work them 20-hour days.  Me, I have other things to do than }
>> work, and I have expenses, and need health insurance.
>> } I think what people are discussing would help anyone trying to learn a
> new
>> } language, or make a career change, but I think there are other systemic
> }
>> social problems hitting older people looking for something better than }
>> unskilled work.
>> } Tracy
>> }
>> }
>> } -----Original Message-----
>> } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
>> via } nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:55 PM } To: 'NFB in
> Computer
>> Science Mailing List'
>> } Cc: Bryan Schulz
>> } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } Hi, } } I would
>> like info and thoughts of how older people can get into cs/help desk }
> jobs
>> and am so sick of the nfb only being interested in young students.
>> } The situation of someone going down the technical college road and only
> }
>> ending up with an associates degree isn't fun and gaining certs hasn't }
>> helped at all.
>> } Bryan
>> }
>> } -----Original Message-----
>> } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
> Webster
>> } via nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:20 PM } To: 'NFB in
> Computer
>> Science Mailing List'
>> } Cc: Kathryn Webster; 'Jim Barbour'
>> } Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Future goals for the division } } Debee and all, }
>> } 	I would be exceedingly interested in contributing to this. I'd like
>> } to echo Jim's suggestion of a wiki as that would be easy to maintain,
>> edit, } and expand.
>> } In terms of publicity, I'm eager to take the lead on marketing any new
}
>> intiatives to help blind students through our master database and
website.
>> } Collaboration amongst divisions is a significant goal of mine, and I
see
>> the } CS Division as an ideal place to continue that effort. Our student
>> division } leaders, particularly Bryan Duarte and myself, are both very
in
>> touch with } CS and student issues, so there is some place for us to
> start.
>> } If our CS Division leadership chooses to move forward with this idea,
>> count } me in on all accounts. I am more than happy to help with whatever
> is
>> } necessary in kickstarting this effort.
>> }
>> } What a fabulous idea!
>> }
>> } Best,
>> } Kathryn
>> }
>> } Kathryn Webster
>> } President | National Association of Blind Students } } } -----Original
>> Message----- } From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Jim Barbour via } nfbcs } Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 1:07 PM } To:
>> Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs } Cc: Jim Barbour } Subject: Re: [nfbcs]
> Future
>> goals for the division } } I think Debee has a great idea.  I actually
> think
>> it's a very good } application for a wiki.
>> }
>> } One person won't know everything about what is accessible and what
> isn't,
>> } even in the developer and IT focused worlds.
>> }
>> } If we agree, I'd be happy to work with Curtis W on setting up a wiki
and
> }
>> start populating it.  I'd like to hear from folks that we think this is }
>> worth collaborating on.
>> }
>> } Jim
>> }
>> } On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 04:54:45PM +0000, Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
>> wrote:
>> } > >I'm interested in hearing from folks on this list about things
they'd
> }
>> like to see the NFB in Computer Science do in the future } > I'm changing
>> the subject line so people won't skip over it.
>> } >
>> } > I think one of the most crucial things is to put together an online }
>> 
>> paper, } that is updated regularly, that spells out what one needs to
know
>> to get } started in any computer science related field. This would be
>> different from } what sighted people need to know; it would focus on
which
>> current tools are } accessible, which aren't, and include the resources
> such
>> as books or online } training that were discussed over in the other
> thread.
>> } >
>> } > I work at a college, and I know new blind students get stymied by the
> }
>> simplest things because they lack experience and so do their sighted }
>> helpers. For example, I heard of a student who dropped a Linux class
which
> }
>> was all command-line based, because the rest of the class was using
telnet
> }
>> built in to Windows to log in to the class server. Not sure why they used
> }
>> anything this insecure, but I wasn't administering that system and heard
}
>> about it third-hand. And JAWS was not accurately reading what appeared }
>> onscreen, nor was it tracking the cursor when the student tried to use }
>> Emacs. As a Linux-head I had to laugh a bit about the ignorance that lead
> }
>> the student and his professor to conclude the coursework was
inaccessible,
> }
>> but it's not a laughing matter, when a beginner doesn't know where to
> turn.
>> 
>> } >
>> } > The document could have sections: What you need to know to Learn C++"
>> } > or
>> } "What you need to know in your first Visual Basic Class" etc.
>> } >
>> } > I also think we need to nail down and possibly explain the reasons }
>
>> behind } the inaccessibility of many current tools. For example, if the
> QT4
>> library } is used in creating interfaces, screen readers only partially
>> identify or } even recognize the existence of controls. If in learning
SQL
>> the difference } between inner joins and outer joins is explained through
>> the use of diagrams } only, then it's not going to make sense to any
blind
>> student. That caused } me, an experience programmer to drop a course just
>> last year. I would have } loved to be able to find a paper that outlined
>> where I could go to locate a } book that explained these concepts in
plain
>> English.
>> } >
>> } > Another thought about UML: wild idea here, but how about digital } >
>> tactile } diagrams of the symbols that could be embossed? I know
different
>> embossers } have different codes for doing graphics, but someone who
knows
>> more about } this than I could perhaps take the lead here. A student
could
>> simply emboss } the shapes, or get their school to do it, and then using
>> post-it note glue } which comes in sticks, post their charts on a
> classroom
>> wall, doing homework } along with a sighted class.
>> } >
>> } > One way in which I can contribute is writing, and I'd be happy to
take
> }
>>> the } lead on that part.
>> } >
>> } > --Debee
>> } >
>> } >
>> } >
>> } > _______________________________________________
>> } > nfbcs mailing list
>> } > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> } >
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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