[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

Sat Mar 12 17:21:43 UTC 2016

You are missing the point. The point is that you have every right to ask 
for an accomadation. Lets make sure that is perfectly clear. First of 
all, legally, you have every right. But more importantly, you aren't 
doing anything wrong by asking for an accomadation.

Now, as a practical matter, it may not be wise.  I can go along with 
that. But the last thing we should be doing on this list is implying 
that you are being unfair to your employer by asking for an accomadation.

On 03/11/2016 09:03 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs wrote:
> This is true, but it's frequently a little bit more complicated than 
> what you're describing.
>
> First, a hiring manager typically doesn't need to do anything to get a 
> new employee standard equipment other than letting someone know I have 
> a new employee starting on this date, Whereas, special equipment 
> usually requires following a procurement process and might end up 
> counting against the hiring manager's departmental budget. Even if the 
> approval is pretty much a rubber stamp, it's more work for the hiring 
> manager, probably involves getting some approvals and providing a 
> justification and may count against a departmental budget meaning 
> something else may not get purchased. Whether this is fair or not, it 
> does put a blind candidate at a disadvantage.
>
> Finally, special equipment may cost more than standard equipment. A 
> copy of JAWS is going to cost a lot more than a monitor and a mouse. 
> Plus, it's not like the company is going to know ahead of time that 
> they don't need a monitor or a mouse for a blind employee. If a blind 
> employee doesn't have a monitor on their desk that just means there's 
> an extra monitor somewhere in the company. It doesn't mean the company 
> actually save $100 by not buying a monitor. Besides, I've always had a 
> monitor everywhere I've worked. I'm frequently asking someone to look 
> at my screen to take a peek at some code, a document or some 
> presentation.
>
> On 11/03/16 10:59, Star Gazer via nfbcs wrote:
>>                 John is absolutely correct here. Unless
>> you're working as an independent contractor, employers purchase 
>> necessairy
>> job materials all the time.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G 
>> Heim via
>> nfbcs
>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:37 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>> Disabled
>>
>> But employers pick up the tab for employees equipment all the time.
>> Imagine a sighted person getting hired at a company that made 
>> accessibility
>> tools. Everybody else who works at the company is blind.
>> They sit him down in front of a computer with no monitor, just a 
>> headset. He
>> says, "I'm going to need a monitor." And the boss says, "Are you 
>> kidding?
>> You expect me to go out and spend my own money on some stupid visual 
>> device
>> just for you?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/11/2016 07:02 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs wrote:
>>> I have a reasonable understanding of the ADA when it comes to how
>>> reasonable accommodation is interpreted, but I would argue for any
>>> client who pressed the state agency to provide the initial equipment
>>> for a job. It is one thing to demonstrate to an employer that I have
>>> worth and then expect him to pick up the same cost that he does for
>>> others, but I think it is a very different thing for an employer who
>>> doesn't know me or much of anything about blind people to be told that
>>> I will need screen reading software, a notetaker, and perhaps a
>>> scanner and some additional software. For the agency to drop the ball
>> after carrying it 90% of the way seems foolish to me.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>> Jacobson via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:21 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson; 'Tracy Carcione'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>> Disabled
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working
>>> some forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the
>>> blind provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time
>>> thing, and of course that has changed.  However, particularly with the
>>> coming of ADA, but even before that, it became the employer's
>>> responsibility to provide needed equipment as a reasonable
>>> accommodation.  Whether it should be considered or not, that makes us
>>> more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as you say, we can
>>> convince an employer that we will produce more.  However, I am
>>> somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
>>> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of
>>> our reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a large
>>> company, but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is
>>> where many jobs are.  Also, many large companies budget at a
>>> department level and one's equipment may need to be paid for by the
>>> department that does the hiring.  A small expense for a large company
>>> might be much more substantial at the department level.  come
>>>
>>> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
>>> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone
>>> else is hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I
>>> know that some job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable
>>> accommodation needs right away, and there is a case to be made for
>>> that.  One needs to know if they can do the job for one thing.  But it
>>> really exposes one's hand, so to speak, very early in the process.
>>> Another employee who does not require any reasonable accommodations
>>> but who had a family situation that causes them to require time off,
>>> for example, won't reveal any of this until they have been hired.  We
>>> need to look for answers to some of this as blind people because we are
>> the ones most effected.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim
>>> via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>> Disabled
>>>
>>> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
>>> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that some
>>> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose
>>> that you are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples
>>> show how futile it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up at a
>>> lot of interviews where you have absolutely no chance at the job.
>>> There is always some chance you'll wow the interviewer into giving you
>>> a chance, I suppose. Is it worth it? Just my opinion but I don't think
>>> so. I think you are better off weeding those people out in the first
>> place.
>>>
>>> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super
>>> Blind Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that
>>> term in my cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the things I
>>> could do. I have competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my
>>> house, done a lot of woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to 
>>> work.
>>>
>>> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
>>> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
>>> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says Super
>>> Blind Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936
>>> and Andrew Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
>>> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>>>> several blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not
>>>> be convinced I wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.  
>>>> Grrrr.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G
>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Cc: John G Heim
>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>>>> Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-
>>> discri
>>>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>>>
>>>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a
>>>> study similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a
>>>> blind applicant applying for IT jobs. The study has people with
>>>> spinal injuries and Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs.
>>>> They found disabled applicants were 26% less likely to get a call
>>>> back. Of particular interest are some of the comments.
>>>>
>>>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
>>> decision
>>>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>>>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job
>>>> applicant would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job
>>>> to overcome the disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>>>
>>>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this
>>>> effect for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for
>>>> blind
>>> applicants
>>>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind person
>>> does,
>>>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that
>>>> even
>>> worse
>>>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind technologist
>>>> can do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me
>>>> when she
>>> saw
>>>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
>>> simply
>>>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.
>>>> n
>>>> et
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.
>>>> e
>>>> du
>>> -- 
>>> -- 
>>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi
>>> si.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink
>>> .net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.e
>>> du
>>
>> -- 
>> -- 
>> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%40gmail.c 
>>
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gmail.com
>>
>