[nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson-visi at outlook.com
Sun Oct 9 23:50:00 UTC 2016
Sabra,
Please understand that I was not advocating some of what you said in your note. My suggestion of using a reader was intended to be used until one got a handle on the accessible aspects of software. In my case, I found it easier to understand what the keystrokes did if I understood how others used the software. The goal was to get to a point where I could use the software independently. Certainly I became somewhat aware of what some of the icons looked like, but my goal was to as quickly as I could, get a sense of what the software did without trying to learn the accessibility at the exact same time. There is nothing in what I am trying to say that endorses writing software that excludes blind people, though. Also, each of us is different, with different skills and weaknesses. What I suggested worked for me, but it may or may not work for you. You could be quicker at associating keystrokes with what your professor says than I was, for example. My whole point was just to lay out another possible option, which was never meant to imply that you always use a reader or that you couldn't be independent. That was apparently not clear and I am sorry for that.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
----Original Message-----
From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org] On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2016 3:48 PM
To: program-l at freelists.org
Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers
I found someone who will help. Instead of helping me communicate what I need to communicate, it is starting to get annoying that a lot of you are over complicating things. How many times do I have to tell you. I already tried to work with a tutor. The one they had available was not helpful because she just clicks on everything. The proxy was not supposed to be for homework. It was supposed to be for tests. We don't really get homework and we just have to follow along with what the professor is doing. I would be given someone who doesn't know anything about visual studio so I couldn't use them to supposedly cheat, but that wouldn't work because I would have no idea how to tell them what to click on. I think that I need to understand basic things about the interface for sighted people, but I don't need to understand everything. I just need to know what I need to do. Plenty of cited developers make accessible programs, when they have no idea what a screen reader even is. All they know i s that they have coding standards and they adhere to them. For visual basic one, I just had to do basic things like go to the toolbox, and I was able to figure that out, but for this one, I am having to do more complicated things that aren't very clear in the documentation. If I had the right information, I could learn what I needed to do in a few days. The problem is that my professor thinks that it is not possible for me to work the program and that the cited way of doing things is better because I have been without the correct information for so long. It also took weeks for me to get jaws on a computer at school even though they knew I was coming, and that didn't help. I don't know. I just think it's really sad that blind people today are apparently being encouraged to get readers, and being told that they really can't do it, when it comes to using not very complicated software packages with full accessibility. Yes, it isn't very intuitive, but it isn't so complicated that I will
have to drop out of the class. If I had the right information about how to use it, I would be just fine. I was able to find some things, but I had to search for ever for them in forums. Unless the computer has the mouse disabled, I'm really not willing to work with A cited tutor at this point. Doing so in the past has just been unproductive and wasted my time. Jaws doesn't even say anything most of the time when she clicks, and when it does talk, it gets cut off in the middle of its sentence. I don't know why a lot of you are so mean. It seems like mostly but the majority of you had to say is that I should get a reader even know that will not work for the reasons I have described, or that it is all my fault because I'm just not adaptable enough. Why don't you understand this? Every single person at my school only knows how to work it using the mouse. They do not know how to get me in touch with any resources that will help me work it. They don't know how to work it. Getting a tutor
who clicks on everything for me will not change that. My classmates can only work at using the mouse as well. You can talk about the workforce all you want, but this is school. This is not the workforce, and they are very different environments. I care about what's happening now. I may not even be programming once I enter the workforce. Actually, it's pretty likely that I won't be because I am doing computer information systems. Based on your responses, I gather that a lot of you don't know the differences between that and computer science. All I know is that I am not going to produce code that excludes blind people. Actually, I will not knowingly exclude any user type from a program that I help create. Yes, I know that a lot of companies will have a problem with that. They don't want to follow best practices. They don't want to be accessible, and they really don't care if they exclude 20% of users because 80% is good enough for them to have a good market. That's why I say I probab ly won't be programming. And before I go, since you say that having an assistant will work out so beautifully, I am giving you a challenge. If a congenitally blind person can do this, I will admit that I am an idiot and that I need to step up my game. OK, start out at the desktop, and tell me exactly what I should click on to populate a table in Microsoft word. You can't say something like go to Microsoft word because if I am working with someone who knows nothing about visual studio, I won't be able to just say go to data tools no matter where I am. You have to imagine that I am a sighted person who knows nothing about this. I need a very clear description about what I should click on to open the document, saving the document, creating the table, and populating the table. I already know how to do this in the appropriate way for a blind person. I'm just asking you to go through this so that you can know what you are asking me to do when you say that I should learn how to control the
software using an assistant and imply that it would somehow be easier for me to do that then work it myself. If you were cited for a long time, or you are a partial, you will probably be able to do it, and then you will go back and say that being cited has nothing to do with it. I will only agree with you on that if a congenitally blind person can accomplish this challenge without looking up how to do it on the Internet. I don't know how you would tell a sighted person to go to Microsoft Word, but an example of what would have to happen is that if I were telling my assistant to go to mail, I couldn't say that. I would have to say click on the envelope. So for the challenge, you would have to say click on the, whatever icon you go to for Microsoft Word.
Sabra Ewing
> On Oct 9, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Juan Hernandez <juanhernandez98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, please let us know.
>
> I have finished my masters in computer science, and I have to do a lot of the same. I am working twords my Ph.D. in computer science, so please let us know and I'll share any experiences or give any help I can.
>
> In this day in age with the technologies we have access to there is no excuse for blind/vi students to fall through the cracks when they want to learn. Technology really equals the playing field for us with our sighted counterparts. We just have to do things different at times from others, and this can be stressful, a pain, but at the end of the day it pays off.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org] On Behalf Of Andy B.
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 11:56 AM
> To: program-l at freelists.org
> Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use
> screen readers
>
> I took 6 credits of .net framework with Visual Studio, and have used it for the past 10 years. If you need something, let me know. It sounds like your professor needs to know that they need to work with you on alternatives. If you can’t translate images and icons to the textual value of the control, then you need to be tested on something similar. What this is, I don’t know. However, something must be done to right the ship again. You also need a tutor… someone that can help you understand how to run Visual Studio — someone with solid experience. I understand forging through classes that are not accessible. However, it can be done. After all, I am now in the second semester of my masters in software design. I understand the layout of the screen from a visual perspective. I also had to create user interfaces for my VB and C# classes. In fact, I had to take an entire class on user interface design. At the graduate level, almost everything in programming has a user interface.
Th
> e only difference is all the programming is in Java. Again, if you need something, let me know, and I will see what I can do.
>
>
>> On Oct 8, 2016, at 12:21 PM, Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sabra,
>>
>> As you know, I'm also totally blind since birth and suffer from some
>> of the same problems. For instance, I struggle mightily to understand
>> IDEs so tend to use command-line tools. I don't tend to think of
>> controls as being located anywhere in space. Instead I think of
>> "telling" the computer to do something via some combination of
>> keystrokes. With this self-knowledge, I'm in the process of finding
>> the editors etc. that will make me the most productive.
>>
>> I think I can read tactile graphics better than you can but that
>> doesn't really matter. People tend to describe everything verbally,
>> and I'm not very good at remembering verbal descriptions. I need to
>> interact with a thing directly to understand it. People say I should
>> use my imagination more, but I'm afraid I lack one. I don't know if
>> it's due to my autism, blindness or the combination.
>>
>> Anyway, I encourage you to talk to Florine. They seem both willing to
>> help you and more knowledgeable about this subject than I am.
>>
>> It's gonna be okay.
>>
>> Amanda
>>
>>> On 10/8/16, David Reynolds <david at dkreynolds.plus.com> wrote:
>>> Florian,
>>>
>>> I actually don't think we're disagreeing. I just think the emphasis
>>> is different. Coming from a professional background, I think it of
>>> paramount importance for a blind or visually impaired person to
>>> understand how a screen looks. Given that they'll never see it, it
>>> is vitally important that a good grasp is gained in the early stages
>>> of study or work placement. It is hard, and does take time, but if
>>> we're to converse and become productive and in any way become equal
>>> competitors with our sighted peers, then it must be addressed. I'm
>>> well aware that for some eye/brain conditions, this is extremely
>>> difficult. If I'm coding for myself, I'm not really bothered about
>>> how the screen looks, or whether the controls line up, but when
>>> programming for a customer, it becomes of much higher importance,
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org
>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Florian Beijers
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 2:04 PM
>>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use
>>> screen readers
>>>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>> I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Especially in
>>> Sabra's case since I think they are having a hard time visualizing
>>> how a screen, or anythin really, looks to a sighted person, it
>>> sounds to me like the effort would be far higher than the potential gain.
>>> Just curious though, why do you think in this situation knowing what
>>> the screen looks like is beneficial, given the fact they want to use
>>> a screen reader to control the program? Is it pure a matter of
>>> having a shared vocabulary about the program with their sighted peers?
>>> I notice that apart from the standard Windows conventions (title
>>> bar, menubar below, toolbar below that and at the bottom a status
>>> bar), I tend not to know what a program looks like either and don't
>>> really find it easy to care all that much. is it different for you?
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-10-08 14:42 GMT+02:00, David Reynolds <david at dkreynolds.plus.com>:
>>>> Florian,
>>>>
>>>> I certainly agree with a great deal of what you say, but
>>>> essentially, I think it important that as visually impaired
>>>> developers, it is important to understand what the screen does like.
>>>> There is no substitute for time spent with a sympathetic listener
>>>> on this one provided they have the relevant knowledge and a desire to help.
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org
>>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of Florian Beijers
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:58 PM
>>>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use
>>>> screen readers
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I am going to paste your message here again. In the text, at the
>>>> end of your lines, I will add my comments and I will always start
>>>> them with (fb). That way, you can easily find them using JAWS find,
>>>> NVDA find or any other finding technique you are familiar with.
>>>> Here we go :)
>>>>
>>>> I am in a visual basic class that uses visual studio. Before we
>>>> start, note that I have been blind since birth. I know nothing
>>>> about how sighted people use the computer apart from the fact that
>>>> their icons look like pictures and they click on them with a mouse.
>>>> (fb) This is basically correct, often what a screen reader tells
>>>> you can either be a visible label of text on a control that sighted
>>>> people see as well, or it is an icon that, behind the scenes as it
>>>> were, gets sent to your screenreader while the sighted people only
>>>> see an icon of, for example, an envelope to send email, or a play
>>>> button to set something in motion.
>>>>
>>>> My problem is that even though Visual studio is completely
>>>> accessible, I don't have any resources to know how to work it and
>>>> it is not very intuitive. I have been working with my professor and
>>>> several other people to try to work something out, but they don't
>>>> know a lot about screen readers.
>>>> (fb) Any IDE (integrated development environment) will have some
>>>> complexity going on when you're not used to such programs. When you
>>>> are using a textbook to work through, the book will often reference
>>>> going to windows, toolbars or icons because that's what sighted
>>>> users tend to be familiar with. However, for you that is obviously
>>>> not going to fly. How about you and I sit down on Skype some time
>>>> to go over some of Visual Studio's controls and how you can best
>>>> access them using your screen reader? Are you familiar with Skype?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I explained that optimally, I should be able to work Visual Studio
>>>> myself if I could just know how, but they seem to think that I
>>>> can't do it because it is too complicated, not because I lack the
>>>> appropriate resources. (fb) You need to nip this in the bud as
>>>> soon as possible. You are supposed to do the class, not someone
>>>> else who you tell what to do. How are you expected to actually use
>>>> the skills you have learned later on if you always need someone to help you?
>>>>
>>>> It was suggested that I would have an assistant click on things for
>>>> me and I will tell them what to click on. I explained it that that
>>>> wasn't going to work, and they thought that it is because I am too
>>>> independent and don't w ant to do it, but that isn't it. At this
>>>> point, I am willing to do anything to get through the class, but I
>>>> really don't think it would work. I could not tell a sighted person
>>>> to do something that I know how to do like edit a worksheet and XL
>>>> or put a header in a word document. So if I can't tell you how to
>>>> do basic things on the computer using a mouse, how can I tell you
>>>> how to use a barely familiar piece of software? (fb) You can't ,
>>>> because for all intents and purposes you are working with a
>>>> different interface than they are.
>>>> Often icons get translated to bits of text for you. This makes the
>>>> program usable by you, but you won't know how the ivsual
>>>> representation looks on the screen so you can't tell someone what
>>>> icon to click unless you memorize all of them, which is quite the
>>>> chore and not at all useful to you.
>>>>
>>>> They say it would be easy though and I would just tell them what to
>>>> click on, but I can't do that, but I can't explain why to somebody
>>>> who does not know a lot about screen readers. (fb) Simple. Tell
>>>> them that you are not receiving an item's location , nor the way it
>>>> looks, when going through a user interface with a screenreader. You
>>>> are only receiving the so-called accessible name of the item, which
>>>> often doesn't match up with what a sighted user sees on the screen.
>>>> When you hear you have landed on the Build option in the toolbar,
>>>> you don't know where that toolbar is, where the icon is and what
>>>> the icon looks like. Therefore there is no way for you to translate
>>>> what you are hearing into what they are seeing without significant
>>>> work you eally don't need to do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My professor says that my assistant would not know anything about
>>>> visual studio so I couldn't use them to cheat on a test, so that
>>>> means I couldn't just say something like, go to data tools or
>>>> rename the table. The only way I can think of it to make that work
>>>> is have a list of things I want to do, followed by a description of
>>>> how to do it with the mouse, and I would just have to memorize ea
>>>> ch description, but that would be very difficult, and if the
>>>> description did not work for my assistant, the only thing I would be able to do is just repeat it.
>>>> (fb> You are right, this is impractical at best.
>>>> My professor said that I could have the office for students with
>>>> disabilities produce a tactile picture of the screen. If there is a
>>>> way to make that work, I would try it, but I don't know how. I
>>>> don't know how the picture would fit on one page, and even though
>>>> pages could be stuck together, it would start to get too big for me to read.
>>>> Plus the screen changes all the time. (fb> This might work if your
>>>> screen would be static, but this is by no means the case in visual
>>>> studio. Again, this wouldn't help you because you don't need to
>>>> know what the screen looks like to be able to work with it.
>>>>
>>>> Even my cited classmates seem to think that if I know where
>>>> something is on the screen, that will help, but these computers are
>>>> not touchscreen. (fb) Even if they were, it would be quite tricky
>>>> to use VS from just a touch screen I'm afraid.
>>>> I don't know how I would remember that though. For example, if you
>>>> put a dot on a page, take the page away, and give me a blank page
>>>> and the dot, I will not be able to put my dot in the same place no
>>>> matter how many times I look at it. (fb) This is called spacial
>>>> orientation and is tricky for a lot of blind people. Most people
>>>> can give an aproximation of where the dot is, but usually no more
>>>> than that and some can't get it done at all.
>>>> On my phone, I know where things are on the corners of the screen
>>>> after keeping everything in the same place for four years, but I
>>>> was thinking about this, and I really have no idea about the
>>>> location of most of the things on my screen. If I need to go to an
>>>> app, I flick to the folder where it is, tap on that folder, and go
>>>> to the page where it is located and then flick until I find it.
>>>> (fb) And many others with you
>>>> :)
>>>> If I can't do that because it is being really elusive, then I just
>>>> asked Siri to open it. I can type on a touchscreen keyboard though,
>>>> so that has to mean I know where the letters are on the screen
>>>> somehow, but I don't know how that is. (fb) it's something called
>>>> muscle memory. You do it so often that your thumb knows where the
>>>> letters are, even if you don't consciously know it yourself.
>>>>
>>>> That aside, even if I could somehow figure out how to know where
>>>> things are on the screen, I don't know how I would click on it. I
>>>> can't use the mouse, but I can't explain to people why that is.
>>>> They say if I know where it is, then I should be able to point at
>>>> it with the mouse. (fb) It sounds to me the people you are working
>>>> with are missing the rather important concept that you aren't
>>>> actually able to use your eyes to see the screen, you are using a
>>>> screen reader which parses the screen for you into a format you can
>>>> sequentially go through, even if you can't see the screen. That is
>>>> the whole point of a screen reader :) You can't use a mouse because
>>>> you can't see where your mouse is in relation to other objects on screen.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe a picture of the screen would be different, but I can't read
>>>> a tactile nap, and I feel like that ups the risk factor. They tried
>>>> for years in school to teach me us ing a variety of methods, but
>>>> it wouldn't work. (fb) Again, it sounds to me you're not very good
>>>> at spacial orientation, which is fine.
>>>> Loads of people aren't and you don't need to be to be able to program.
>>>>
>>>> The last thing I am trying to explain is that if you tell me how to
>>>> do something based on how an icon looks such as go to the green
>>>> arrow or the red triangle, I will not be able to do it, even if you
>>>> are asking me to perform a task I already know how to complete.
>>>> (fb) Of course not, you have no idea what the green arrow stands
>>>> for or where it is so you can't use that kind of instruction.
>>>> I understand the concept of how an icon can be a picture, and how
>>>> excited person clicks on that picture to do something, but I cannot
>>>> match up the pictures they use with what I'm doing. This is not
>>>> just becoming a problem working the software. It is becoming a
>>>> problem with learning the material.
>>>> For example, I was trying to learn to create an error provider
>>>> control. I did, and there was supposedly an error message flashing
>>>> when I typed in something in valid, but if someone had not told me,
>>>> I would not have known that. (fb) What you are running into there
>>>> is an accessibility problem.
>>>> There is ways of making your screen reader read out that error
>>>> message when it flashes so you are aware of it, you are not
>>>> supposed to know what the error is if it only flashes at you on
>>>> screen. This is not a problem with you, its an issue with either
>>>> that control, your screen reader or something else internal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I had been using the program, all I would have known is that it
>>>> wouldn't let me move onto the next text box for some reason. I was
>>>> told to put something on th ere called a status bar strip as well,
>>>> but it didn't do anything.
>>>> (fb) It most likely did, a status bar strip, for sighted people, is
>>>> a kind of rectangular area on the bottom of the screen that holds
>>>> status information. For example the page number of your current
>>>> page in Word lives down there. Your screenreader will have a hotkey
>>>> to read that status bar aloud for you, I don't know what the hotkey
>>>> is I'm afraid, I haven't used JAWS in a long time, but I can certainly find out for you.
>>>>
>>>> They also say that jaws has a problem because they want to change
>>>> the text of a button without changing the name. For example, they
>>>> will place a button that is automatically named button one, then go
>>>> to the text property and change that to insert or whatever it
>>>> should be. But when I do that, it just says button one, button
>>>> two, and so forth. In order to be able to use the buttons, I have
>>>> to change the name so it matches up with the text. I don't know
>>>> exactly what this means, but I'm assuming there is probably a
>>>> picture of a button like maybe an elevator button, and there is text next to it.
>>>> (fb) This is a bit of a tricky one to explain. Before you have
>>>> compiled your program, so, when you are still in what's called the
>>>> Forms designer, JAWS will read the programmatic name of the control.
>>>> This would be button1 if you don't change it, and is indeed
>>>> controlled by the name property. This is the name you use to , in
>>>> your program, refer to that button, but the sighted people are not
>>>> seeing this name visually. They see the text property on that
>>>> button. This is very similar to you hearing a control's name, where
>>>> a sighted person sees its icon. After you have compiled your
>>>> program, JAWS should instead use the button's text property so you
>>>> will hear it as well, but this doesn't happen yet at design time.
>>>> That's where your error in translation is coming from
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Also, when I put a text box, I also have to put a label, but that
>>>> doesn't make sense because the text box is already labeled. It is
>>>> automatically labeled text box one when you place it. (fb) No, it
>>>> is automatically named, but not labeled, textbox1 when you create it.
>>>> JAWS will read this name at design time, and I think if there's no
>>>> associated label for JAWS after the program is compiled, it wil
>>>> still read
>>>> textbox1 because there's nothing else for it to read. This is
>>>> another little accessibility gotcha.
>>>>
>>>> All I can figure is that sighted people can't see the label for
>>>> some reason or maybe they need two of them. (fb) haha :) The
>>>> sighted people are not seeing that label, you are correct.
>>>> Well anyways, I need it to be able to communicate with the people
>>>> I am working with for this class to work out.
>>>> It has to work out because I somehow made it through visual basic
>>>> one even though I can only do limited things with visual studio,
>>>> and my college is switching to C-sharp next semester. That means I
>>>> will be a semester behind if I don't pass this class because I will
>>>> have to start over again with C-sharp. What is going to happen as
>>>> things get more complicated, and I have fewer and fewer tools to
>>>> communicate because there is no terminology for anything I want to
>>>> say? (fb> Feel free to forward them this email if you think it
>>>> helps, or let your instructor talk to me. I've been in this
>>>> situation in the past and at least your professor, if he teaches
>>>> programming, should be able to understand this story.
>>>>
>>>> I have to say something because they think I'm just being stubborn
>>>> and don't want to try a new way that could work. I also explained
>>>> that I don't think using the flow panel to position controls will
>>>> work, but was told that I have to try so I will know how to do
>>>> things multiple ways. (fb> There's not a lot wrong with a
>>>> flowLayout panel, in fact, I think it might help you out with the design part of your course.
>>>> That sounds nice, but there is something in that exchange that I
>>>> want to say, which I know what in my mind, but I don't know how to
>>>> say it in words.
>>>> For example, I will s
>>>> ay I don't think it will work. You will say why not? I will say I
>>>> don't know, and then you will assume that I have no reason and that
>>>> I just don't want to try it. The only way I can think of to say it
>>>> is to imagine that I am an iPhone, and you are asking me to run
>>>> android. I can't do it because it just won't work. However, I have
>>>> a feeling that would not make sense to the people I'm working with.
>>>> (fb) How about you try to tell me, a fellow blind since birth
>>>> programmer, why you think a flowLayout panel wouldn't work for you?
>>>> I am not really seeing the problem either but I'm not saying I
>>>> don't believe you. I just don't see the wall you are running into
>>>> so to speak, can you point it out to me?
>>>>
>>>> If you would give me some suggestions on how I can communicate
>>>> better, that would be great. Thank you. (fb) I've done my best, I
>>>> hope you can use some of this info. Feel free to reach out to me on
>>>> or off list if something is unclear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Florian
>>>>
>>>> 2016-10-08 13:15 GMT+02:00, George Bell <george at techno-vision.co.uk>:
>>>>> Hi Sabra,
>>>>>
>>>>> Although list owner and moderator, I'm not actually a programmer,
>>>>> but my day to day work brings me in immediate contact with those
>>>>> who do write software.
>>>>> Since two very close associates are blind and screen reader users,
>>>>> I occasionally find myself looking at their screens with Skype
>>>>> providing as good a verbal description as I can.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two things I often suggest to sighted developers.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, run the application without a mouse. Many think this is
>>>>> simply a requirement for blind users, but in fact it is quite easy
>>>>> to show how many sighted users find using the keyboard quicker
>>>>> than using a mouse. You want to print something? What is quicker?
>>>>> Take your hand off the keyboard to get hold of the mouse. Mouse
>>>>> point to the file menu and click, mouse down to Print and click.
>>>>> Or simply Ctrl + p?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironically, I'm seeing many computer magazines extolling the
>>>>> benefits of using keystrokes instead of the mouse, when tends to prove my point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Second takes a little more explaining, and is really simply an
>>>>> extension of what a good programmer should be doing. That is
>>>>> adding comments to program code, so that others will know what the
>>>>> Code is supposed to do. But in this case, it is simply adding a
>>>>> label to an element.
>>>>>
>>>>> The principal is very much like adding Alt Text to a graphic. One
>>>>> of my jobs is to author Help files for applications, where I am a
>>>>> great believer is adding screen shots. If I did not perform the
>>>>> very simple task of adding Alt Text, all a screen reader users
>>>>> would hear at best, would be "Graphic", or at worst be met with total silence.
>>>>> Ironically I often see that screen tips have been added, which
>>>>> appear if the mouse is hovered over something, but that is not the answer here.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, when writing code, and for example displaying a button, it
>>>>> only takes seconds to add a label description.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could continue with aspects like ensuring that as you tab round
>>>>> a dialog box, you are moving in a logical sequence, and give you
>>>>> examples of major software products where this just doesn't happen.
>>>>> However, I'd end up writing a book.
>>>>>
>>>>> George Bell.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org
>>>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing
>>>>> Sent: 07 October 2016 22:28
>>>>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>>>>> Subject: [program-l] Communication with people who don't use
>>>>> screen readers
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in a visual basic class that uses visual studio. Before we
>>>>> start, note that I have been blind since birth. I know nothing
>>>>> about how sighted people use the computer apart from the fact that
>>>>> their icons look like pictures and they click on them with a mouse.
>>>>> My problem is that even though Visual studio is completely
>>>>> accessible, I don't have any resources to know how to work it and
>>>>> it is not very intuitive. I have been working with my professor
>>>>> and several other people to try to work something out, but they
>>>>> don't know a lot about screen readers. I explained that optimally,
>>>>> I should be able to work Visual Studio myself if I could just know
>>>>> how, but they seem to think that I can't do it because it is too
>>>>> complicated, not because I lack the appropriate resources. It was
>>>>> suggested that I would have an assistant click on things for me
>>>>> and I will tell them what to click on. I explained it that that
>>>>> wasn't going to work, and they thought that it is because I am too
>>>>> independent and don't w ant to do it, but that isn't it. At this
>>>>> point, I am willing to do anything to get through the class, but I
>>>>> really don't think it would work. I could not tell a sighted
>>>>> person to do something that I know how to do like edit a worksheet
>>>>> and XL or put a header in a word document. So if I can't tell you
>>>>> how to do basic things on the computer using a mouse, how can I
>>>>> tell you how to use a barely familiar piece of software? They say
>>>>> it would be easy though and I would just tell them what to click
>>>>> on, but I can't do that, but I can't explain why to somebody who
>>>>> does not know a lot about screen readers. My professor says that
>>>>> my assistant would not know anything about visual studio so I
>>>>> couldn't use them to cheat on a test, so that means I couldn't
>>>>> just say something like, go to data tools or rename the table.
>>>>> The only way I can think of it to make that work is have a list of
>>>>> things I want to do, followed by a description of how to do it
>>>>> with the mouse, and I would just have to memorize ea ch
>>>>> description, but that would be very difficult, and if the
>>>>> description did not work for my assistant, the only thing I would be able to do is just repeat it.
>>>>> My professor said that I could have the office for students with
>>>>> disabilities produce a tactile picture of the screen. If there is
>>>>> a way to make that work, I would try it, but I don't know how. I
>>>>> don't know how the picture would fit on one page, and even though
>>>>> pages could be stuck together, it would start to get too big for me to read.
>>>>> Plus the screen changes all the time. Even my cited classmates
>>>>> seem to think that if I know where something is on the screen,
>>>>> that will help, but these computers are not touchscreen. I don't
>>>>> know how I would remember that though. For example, if you put a
>>>>> dot on a page, take the page away, and give me a blank page and
>>>>> the dot, I will not be able to put my dot in the same place no
>>>>> matter how many times I look at it. On my phone, I know where
>>>>> things are on the corners of the screen after kee ping
>>>>> everything in the same place for four years, but I was thinking
>>>>> about this, and I really have no idea about the location of most
>>>>> of the things on my screen. If I need to go to an app, I flick to
>>>>> the folder where it is, tap on that folder, and go to the page
>>>>> where it is located and then flick until I find it. If I can't do
>>>>> that because it is being really elusive, then I just asked Siri to
>>>>> open it. I can type on a touchscreen keyboard though, so that has
>>>>> to mean I know where the letters are on the screen somehow, but I don't know how that is.
>>>>> That aside, even if I could somehow figure out how to know where
>>>>> things are on the screen, I don't know how I would click on it.
>>>>> I can't use the mouse, but I can't explain to people why that is.
>>>>> They say if I know where it is, then I should be able to point at
>>>>> it with the mouse.
>>>>> Maybe a picture of the screen would be different, but I can't read
>>>>> a tactile nap, and I feel like that ups the risk factor. They
>>>>> tried for years in school to teach me us ing a variety of
>>>>> methods, but it wouldn't work. The last thing I am trying to
>>>>> explain is that if you tell me how to do something based on how an
>>>>> icon looks such as go to the green arrow or the red triangle, I
>>>>> will not be able to do it, even if you are asking me to perform a
>>>>> task I already know how to complete. I understand the concept of
>>>>> how an icon can be a picture, and how excited person clicks on
>>>>> that picture to do something, but I cannot match up the pictures
>>>>> they use with what I'm doing. This is not just becoming a problem
>>>>> working the software.
>>>>> It is becoming a problem with learning the material. For example,
>>>>> I was trying to learn to create an error provider control. I did,
>>>>> and there was supposedly an error message flashing when I typed in
>>>>> something in valid, but if someone had not told me, I would not
>>>>> have known that. If I had been using the program, all I would have
>>>>> known is that it wouldn't let me move onto the next text box for
>>>>> some reason. I was told to put something on th ere called a
>>>>> status bar strip as well, but it didn't do anything. They also say
>>>>> that jaws has a problem because they want to change the text of a
>>>>> button without changing the name. For example, they will place a
>>>>> button that is automatically named button one, then go to the text
>>>>> property and change that to insert or whatever it should be. But
>>>>> when I do that, it just says button one, button two, and so forth.
>>>>> In order to be able to use the buttons, I have to change the name
>>>>> so it matches up with the text. I don't know exactly what this
>>>>> means, but I'm assuming there is probably a picture of a button
>>>>> like maybe an elevator button, and there is text next to it.
>>>>> Also, when I put a text box, I also have to put a label, but that
>>>>> doesn't make sense because the text box is already labeled. It is
>>>>> automatically labeled text box one when you place it. All I can
>>>>> figure is that sighted people can't see the label for some reason
>>>>> or maybe they need two of them.
>>>>> Well anyways, I need it to be able to communicate with the people
>>>>> I am working with for this class to work out.. It has to work out
>>>>> because I somehow made it through visual basic one even though I
>>>>> can only do limited things with visual studio, and my college is
>>>>> switching to C-sharp next semester. That means I will be a
>>>>> semester behind if I don't pass this class because I will have to
>>>>> start over again with C-sharp.
>>>>> What is going to happen as things get more complicated, and I have
>>>>> fewer and fewer tools to communicate because there is no
>>>>> terminology for anything I want to say? I have to say something
>>>>> because they think I'm just being stubborn and don't want to try a
>>>>> new way that could work. I also explained that I don't think using
>>>>> the flow panel to position controls will work, but was told that I
>>>>> have to try so I will know how to do things multiple ways. That
>>>>> sounds nice, but there is something in that exchange that I want
>>>>> to say, which I know what in my mind, but I don't know how to say
>>>>> it in words. For example, I will s ay I don't think it will work.
>>>>> You will say why not? I will say I don't know, and then you will
>>>>> assume that I have no reason and that I just don't want to try it.
>>>>> The only way I can think of to say it is to imagine that I am an
>>>>> iPhone, and you are asking me to run android. I can't do it
>>>>> because it just won't work. However, I have a feeling that would
>>>>> not make sense to the people I'm working with. If you would give
>>>>> me some suggestions on how I can communicate better, that would be great. Thank you.
>>>>>
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