[nfbcs] Research

Andy B. sonfire11 at gmail.com
Thu Feb 23 19:44:51 UTC 2017 

I never had time to experiment. Classes started and ended so fast that I had to stick with what I already knew. 8 weeks doesn't give much time for anything except do homework and get out.



-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 2:40 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Walker, Michael E <michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research

What you described about having to OCR your textbooks and university not converting them makes my university look outstanding. I would consider that list of prerequisites subjective. For example, suppose your intro CS course is taught in Java. Even if the Java concepts are taught using UNIX, you could still install NetBeans on Windows, and compile and run the Java programs. This is not to say that you should not learn UNIX, though. Many blind people starting out may not know that they should have all the prerequisites you mentioned. So, back to the Java example, it is possible that I would have started out by learning on Windows, then got my feet wet in UNIX. I probably would have uploaded my Java source code to Linux, compiled it after it was complete, and tested it to be sure it would run, so I would not have to spend as much time on the accessibility deficiencies associated with UNIX/Linux environments at the introductory level. In short, each person is going to be different, based on their prior background.


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Tseng via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 1:30 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: David Tseng; Jim Barbour
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research

Excellent comments all.

One of the fundamental issues is I believe a blind student entering a university today for CS has a much larger prerequisite list of skills, tools, and support needed. It also varies depending on the program.
Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to know what that list is until you've gone through the program already. That's why I think the best path is to get through undergrad then pursue graduates studies in CS.

>From my experience at Berkeley, the prerequisites for me should have been:
- laTeX: essential for pretty much all classes including taking and reading exams
- *nix compentancy: all labs were done in a *nix environment. That means, trying to ssh from Windows doesn't really cut it because it's not the same and super inefficient
- a decent alt media lab. Berkeley at the time I attended, had poor support here. They did not convert books for me. I was left to OCR my CS texts and pay someone to correct them, find some on RFB&B (Learning Ally), etc.
- a couple years of hacking on linux: though not exactly required, the competition meant that professors in many ways expected it
- a good story for *nix access: this includes the entire suite of tools (e.g. Orca, emacs, brltty, etc)

That's just the stuff off the top of my head. If you've got some residual vision, you might be able to skate by for some of these.

You can certainly learn all of these things in progress of your undergraduate degree, but who has the time while they're taking a full load and trying to get a +3.0 GPA and taking more than one technical class per quarter/semester?

+1 on the suggestion of a ratings system. I believe the positives far
out weigh the negatives and at the moment, there's an information vacuum. To get started, I think enumerating various signals, surveying creditable sources, and refreshing on an annual basis makes sense. I will defer to anyone who has run a statistically grounded survey, though.


On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Jim Barbour via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> What criteria could be base such a rating on?
>
> The self reporting of disabled students?
> Surveys of services provided by Disabled Student Services?
> Something else?
>
> I'm not sure this is something that we're in a good position to tackle 
> on our own.
>
> Maybe we can collaborate with NABS on this.
>
> Jim
>
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:51:41PM -0600, Greg Kearney via nfbcs wrote:
> > I'm not thinking of anything legally binding on the schools I'm 
> > thinking
> something along the lines of the U.S. News and World Report ratings of 
> colleges. U.S. News and World Report isn't regulating colleges and 
> they are not seeking the permission of colleges to rate them in their survey.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > > On Feb 23, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Andy B. via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not a wise idea since it would take more resources than available, 
> > > and
> schools can change policy at a moments notice. Of course, schools 
> aren't regulated by the NFB, so why would they seek approval or want 
> to have the NFB as a regulating body? Most of the ratings are based on 
> opinion much like other rating systems. Thus, buyer beware, which is a 
> present fact. The only difference is no one is telling us to beware.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
> Lacy via nfbcs
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 1:17 PM
> > > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > > Cc: Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
> > >
> > > Seconded.
> > >
> > > On 2/23/17, Martin, Vincent F via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > >> I think tha tis a phenomenal idea.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg 
> > >> Kearney via nfbcs
> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 12:25 PM
> > >> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > >> Cc: Greg Kearney <gkearney at gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps the NFB could develop a college ratings system for 
> > >> accessibility at colleges and universities
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >> Greg Kearney
> > >> Commonwealth Braille and Talking Book Cooperative
> > >>
> > >>> On Feb 23, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Martin, Vincent F via nfbcs 
> > >>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> It is still such a crapshoot when choosing schools now.  As a 
> > >>> blind person, we really have to work our network really well 
> > >>> before we consider where we want to go for undergraduate and graduate school.
> > >>> School rankings, programs, and areas of research are still a 
> > >>> major concern, but having to fight the accessibility fight as 
> > >>> well can be
> a daunting task.
> > >>> Most people I know that had a bad experience with Computer 
> > >>> Science or any STEM based education mostly had an Accessibility 
> > >>> problem and not a curriculum problem.
> > >>> I even recommended that a fellow blind PhD student choose 
> > >>> another school to attend for his PhD and he had a NSF 
> > >>> fellowship.  I advised him of this as I found out that I was the 
> > >>> first and only totally blind student in Georgia Tech's 131 year 
> > >>> history.  I have had nothing but accessibility problems since I 
> > >>> arrived for graduate school, but felt that I was qualified to 
> > >>> work toward my degree and fight the
> fight at the same time.
> > >>> I have earned my Master's degree and am in the last year to year 
> > >>> and a half of my PhD work, and I have done everything to make it 
> > >>> better for others behind me.
> > >>> Unfortunately, I have had to file three different Office of 
> > >>> Civil Rights complaints against the school and they will soon be 
> > >>> signing the agreement on the third one.  The law is quite clear, 
> > >>> but the school has been playing a Risk management numbers game 
> > >>> in this situation.  We now have two ADA coordinators on campus
> > >>> (full-time) have done a two-year assessment of the built 
> > >>> environment and made a ten year strategic plan for addressing 
> > >>> them, but still are baulking at true accessibility in the 
> > >>> electronic realm.  The new Disability services Coordinator has a 
> > >>> great new staff and is making strides toward fixing years of 
> > >>> neglect and I am gladly assisting her.  It is rare when you find 
> > >>> a person that understands that this is a social problem and not 
> > >>> a technological problem.  It truly is an attitude
> that needs to be changed.
> > >>> Now, I would recommend that a totally blind person attend the 
> > >>> school, as I think a newly matriculating student would be 
> > >>> accommodated.  I was even able to clear the path for a mentee of mine to come here.
> > >>> He is not totally blind, but does utilize assistive technology 
> > >>> to help with the reading of the vast numbers of academic 
> > >>> journals.  He was just recently married, and His wife is totally 
> > >>> blind and he had to assist her over the phone when she was in 
> > >>> graduate school at another university with her Statistics.  He 
> > >>> attended an Ivy league school and she was at NyU.  If you head 
> > >>> to NC State or to Berkley, you have a much better chance of 
> > >>> being properly accommodated, but I know UT Austin was a 
> > >>> nightmare for a recent Computer Science graduate.  I know how 
> > >>> bad it was for her as I was in contact with some sighted students and graduate students when she was there.  .
> > >>> Colorado is much better now, but they had to be hit over the 
> > >>> head by
> the Department of Justice to make them clean up their act.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John 
> > >>> Heim via nfbcs
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 10:06 AM
> > >>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > >>> Cc: John Heim <john at johnheim.com>
> > >>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
> > >>>
> > >>> I don't think you can make generalizations based on the size of 
> > >>> the school. You can run into an uncooperative instructor 
> > >>> anywhere. It can even depend on who happens to be chair of the department at the time.
> > >>> If you run into an uncooperative instructor, is the department 
> > >>> chair or dean of students going to care? Some do and some don't.
> > >>> I have heard stories from students at other institutions that 
> > >>> would shock any instructor here at the University of Wisconsin.
> > >>>
> > >>> I can agree with your point about the competition though. I used 
> > >>> to give a mini-course on latex at the beginning of each school 
> > >>> year. But fewer and fewer people came to it and we finally stopped doing it.
> > >>> Kids come in already knowing latex or they have to pick it up on 
> > >>> their own. I'm glad I'm not a student any more. The amount of 
> > >>> partying I did would never cut it these days.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 02/23/2017 12:28 AM, David Tseng via nfbcs wrote:
> > >>>> When it comes down to it, the experience imo, depends on the
> university.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In a big research university, say top 50 in the country, the 
> > >>>> emphasis is on a fairly challenging course load. The profile of 
> > >>>> the typical freshman undergrad is someone who has been coding 
> > >>>> for quite some time, has familiarity with a *nix environment, 
> > >>>> and is capable of picking up major topics at each lecture (two 
> > >>>> or three times a
> week).
> > >>>> Classes are typically large; say ~100-200. Professors are 
> > >>>> extremely brilliant, which also means they go fast. Peers are 
> > >>>> at the top of their game. CS tends to attract students who exceled in high school.
> > >>>> These are kids who took multi variable calculus, discrete math, 
> > >>>> and linear algebra before even graduating high school.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> While in undergrad, I spoke with plenty of sighted kids who 
> > >>>> found the experience daunting :).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you want a taste, you can "preview" much of the lower 
> > >>>> division classes from Berkeley. CS61A, for example, is the 
> > >>>> first course and it is a weeder for just about all students.
> > >>>> I don't think I know many people, including colleagues, who 
> > >>>> could stand against the rigorousness of the grading. But, 
> > >>>> that's why it's a top program. However, in that environment, 
> > >>>> even little bit counts and blindness is a major disadvantage 
> > >>>> because you are judged against your peers without having access to 100% of what they've got.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If I had one piece of advice to give, skip the CS undergrad 
> > >>>> unless you're in a lower teir school or a university you know 
> > >>>> well to be student centric and not heavily weighted towards 
> > >>>> performance
> metrics.
> > >>>> Get your fancy CS graduate degree :) at a top teir school. That 
> > >>>> is a totally different animal and quite a bit easier imo. I 
> > >>>> know of many blind professionals who went to great uni's for 
> > >>>> their masters/Ph.D's for CS and due to a variety of factors, 
> > >>>> they all seem to find the experience better than those who took the undergrad route.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Joseph C. Lininger via nfbcs < 
> > >>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Amanda,
> > >>>>> I have to disagree. I currently have an under grad degree in 
> > >>>>> CS, and I am working on a Ph.D. I am also employed full time 
> > >>>>> as a computer scientist.
> > >>>>> There are some issues the blind will experience with technical 
> > >>>>> degrees that are unique to those degrees, but it's definitely
> doable.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Joe
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 2/22/2017 12:13, Amanda Lacy via nfbcs wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have a CS degree. I cannot in good conscience recommend it 
> > >>>>>> to other blind students unless they accept that they will 
> > >>>>>> experience a lot of hurt. I don't have satisfying answers to 
> > >>>>>> most of your questions.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 2/21/17, Michael via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hello Andy,
> > >>>>>>> Thank you for your response. Before answering your 
> > >>>>>>> questions, I will preface my response that this project is 
> > >>>>>>> entirely predicated on ensuring other blind students, who 
> > >>>>>>> may be considering computer science, do not do what I did; 
> > >>>>>>> namely, believing that blind people cannot do computer 
> > >>>>>>> science. Now, your
> > >>>>>>> questions:
> > >>>>>>> (1) No University, community college, or vocational school 
> > >>>>>>> is funding this; this is an assignment that I have received 
> > >>>>>>> on behalf of the Louisiana Center for the Blind (LCB) for my 
> > >>>>>>> technology class.
> > >>>>>>> (2) I graduated from the University of Nevada, Reno, this 
> > >>>>>>> past December with an Honors B.A. in Philosophy with an 
> > >>>>>>> emphasis in logic, metaphysics, and epistemology.
> > >>>>>>> (3) This guide will serve to educate prospective computer 
> > >>>>>>> science students who are blind. When I was in high school, I 
> > >>>>>>> was extremely interested in doing computer science. I was 
> > >>>>>>> told that blind people could not do computer science; 
> > >>>>>>> mistakenly, I believed this to be true and thus proceeded 
> > >>>>>>> into the liberal arts. If I can provide clarity to other 
> > >>>>>>> students thinking about computer science, or elucidate blind 
> > >>>>>>> students when it comes to the copasity of blind people, I 
> > >>>>>>> would be very happy. As it stands, the only place I know for 
> > >>>>>>> sure this research will end up is the national Association 
> > >>>>>>> of Blind Students website, as I sit on the board and can make that happen.
> > >>>>>>> Otherwise,
> > >>>>>>> I have no idea.
> > >>>>>>> (4) This is true. I did not make this anonimis. If people 
> > >>>>>>> are willing to answer, I would be very happy, and will of 
> > >>>>>>> course cite you, or not cite you, depending on your 
> > >>>>>>> permission. If people are not willing to, I totally understand that as well.
> > >>>>>>> I hope I was able to address your concerns.
> > >>>>>>> For anyone else who wishes to help me out, you can email 
> > >>>>>>> your responses to my email (mausbun at nevada.unr.edu) or, if 
> > >>>>>>> you feel confortible, just responding to this thread.
> > >>>>>>> Thank you again for all your attention and time!
> > >>>>>>> Respectfully,
> > >>>>>>> Michael Ausbun
> > >>>>>>> Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Nevada.
> > >>>>>>> Secretary, National Association of blind Students Student, 
> > >>>>>>> The Louisiana Center for the Blind
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > >>>>>>> Andy
> B.
> > >>>>>>> via nfbcs
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:24 PM
> > >>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' 
> > >>>>>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>>>>> Cc: Andy B. <sonfire11 at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am interested in answering these questions. However, you 
> > >>>>>>> never displayed your credentials or qualifications in the 
> > >>>>>>> subject. What school is funding this study? Where did you 
> > >>>>>>> graduate and with what degree? What do you intend on doing 
> > >>>>>>> with the guide when it is finished? The results of this survey are not anonymous.
> > >>>>>>> Therefore, people might be hesitant.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> > >>>>>>> Michael via nfbcs
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:45 PM
> > >>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' 
> > >>>>>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>>>>> Cc: Michael <mausbun at nevada.unr.edu>
> > >>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Research
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hello All:
> > >>>>>>>       My name is Michael Ausbun, and I am currently a 
> > >>>>>>> student at the Louisiana Center for the Blind. I am 
> > >>>>>>> conducting research, to develop a comprehensive guide for 
> > >>>>>>> prospective computer science students. I would much 
> > >>>>>>> appreciate it if you would take some time and answer the following questions.
> > >>>>>>>       Thank you for your attention in this matter.
> > >>>>>>> Respectfully,
> > >>>>>>> Michael Ausbun
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Research questions:
> > >>>>>>> Advocacy:
> > >>>>>>> (1)     What accommodations do you believe were most beneficial
> to you
> > >>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>> completing your degree?
> > >>>>>>> (2)     What accommodation(s) were necessary when completing
> visual
> > >>>>>>> components
> > >>>>>>> of one’s degree requirements?
> > >>>>>>> (3)     In what ways have you advocated for the modification of
> > >>>>>>> materials to
> > >>>>>>> ensure equal access for yourself or future computer science
> students?
> > >>>>>>> (4)     What is the most important question(s) a computer science
> > >>>>>>> student should
> > >>>>>>> ask their instructors before and during a selected course of
> study?
> > >>>>>>> (5)     Are there any Universities, companies, or organizations
> who
> > >>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>> been
> > >>>>>>> greater benefactors?
> > >>>>>>> Academics:
> > >>>>>>> (1)     How much math and science is necessary for a person to be
> > >>>>>>> successful
> > >>>>>>> within the computer science field.
> > >>>>>>> (2)     In general, are materials accessible with access
> technology?
> > >>>>>>> (3)     What are some effective, and somewhat universal,
> techniques
> > >>>>>>> for
> > >>>>>>> manipulating and writing computer languages?
> > >>>>>>> (4)     In what ways did your assignments get modified, to
> establish
> > >>>>>>> equal
> > >>>>>>> access to all requirements?
> > >>>>>>> (5)     What are some effective ways for designing accessible
> > >>>>>>> algorithms
> > >>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>> data structures?
> > >>>>>>> (6)     When developing a portfolio, did you find an accessible
> way
> > >>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> publicly
> > >>>>>>> displaying your code, or for hosting your portfolio?
> > >>>>>>> (7)     After publishing your code, what methods do you use to
> ensure
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> visible code is visually appealing or readable?
> > >>>>>>> (8)     Are there any courses you might recommend to take in high
> > >>>>>>> school
> > >>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> prepare someone going into the computer science field?
> > >>>>>>> (9)     Besides the source work required to obtain your degree,
> what
> > >>>>>>> additional
> > >>>>>>> course work might you recommend to enhance one’s employment 
> > >>>>>>> effectiveness?
> > >>>>>>> Access technology:
> > >>>>>>> (1)     What access technology gave you the greatest degree of
> > >>>>>>> opportunity to
> > >>>>>>> compete on an equal playing field with your peers?
> > >>>>>>> (2)     What challenges did access technology present when
> > >>>>>>> interacting
> > >>>>>>> with the
> > >>>>>>> technology required to complete tasks and assignments for 
> > >>>>>>> your computer science degree or profession?
> > >>>>>>> (3)     What role does access technology play in the completion
> of
> > >>>>>>> your
> > >>>>>>> daily
> > >>>>>>> assignments or tasks?
> > >>>>>>> (4)     How might modifications to standard technology create
> more
> > >>>>>>> opportunity
> > >>>>>>> for usability with access technology?
> > >>>>>>> General technology:
> > >>>>>>> (1)     In what ways is the general technology inaccessible when
> > >>>>>>> paired
> > >>>>>>> with
> > >>>>>>> access technology? Are there any work arounds for these issues?
> > >>>>>>> (2)     What sort of accommodations are necessary for the use of
> most
> > >>>>>>> general
> > >>>>>>> technology used in this field of study or profession?
> > >>>>>>> (3)     Can standard tasks be completed on a unit without
> extensive
> > >>>>>>> modification
> > >>>>>>> or accommodations?
> > >>>>>>> Does most technology come ready to use? Are there ways to 
> > >>>>>>> increase one’s productivity when using Python JavaScript C++ 
> > >>>>>>> swift and racket, and integrated development environments 
> > >>>>>>> (IDEs)—such as CodeLite, Eclipse, NetBeans, VisualWX, Xcode, 
> > >>>>>>> and
> KDevelop?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
> > >>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> > >>>>>>> info for
> > >>>>>>> nfbcs:
> > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/
> sonfire11%40gm
> > >>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>> il.com
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>>> nfbcs:
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> > >>>>>>> 40nevada.unr.edu
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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> lacy925%40gmai
> > >>>>>>> l
> > >>>>>>> .com
> > >>>>>>>
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> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> nfbcs mailing list
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> davidct1209%40gm
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>> il.com
> > >>>>>
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> 40johnheim.c
> > >>>> o
> > >>>> m
> > >>>>
> > >>>
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> vincent.martin%40g
> > >>> a tech.edu _______________________________________________
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> gkearney%40gmail.c
> > >>> o
> > >>> m
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> vincent.martin%40ga
> > >> tech.edu _______________________________________________
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> lacy925%40gmail.com
> > >>
> > >
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