[nfbcs] Research
Walker, Michael E
michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com
Thu Feb 23 20:01:15 UTC 2017
I agree with Amanda. I could not have handled the stress of dealing with access problems, and trying to learn what I needed for my career. I was just assertive in insisting on finding the right readers who had some kind of background in the course material I was about to study. Information systems was actually my degree path, not CS, but information systems is related.
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda Lacy via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 1:58 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Amanda Lacy
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
> If there are colleges that are truly violating the law, we need to
> apply pressure to change them, not avoid them.
Steve, I disagree. Not all of us are capable of handling the stress.
The time I spent dealing with access problems was time that I couldn't spend learning and preparing for a career.
On 2/23/17, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Well, I just see a lot of problems with doing anything like this.
> First, there is too much that can change quickly that could affect
> ratings. A department chair who is particularly difficult could
> affect the accessibility rating of a college and either because he or
> she is instructed to change or is replaced, the impression given by a
> poor rating could be inaccurate. To keep ratings up-to-date would not be a small task.
>
> Beyond that, is it really in our interests to pick a school based upon
> its accessibility? I read people's messages asking that very
> question. The fact is that the schools that would rate lowest are
> likely doing more than most any college was doing thirty or forty years ago, but we got through.
> I'm not advocating that we go back to those days, only that a student
> should be able to work with most colleges given today's laws.
>
> If one is choosing a college, thinking about what it will do for one's
> career goals really needs to be the major concern. Since Mike Freeman
> is no longer here to say it, I am moved to say that colleges that
> might rate high in accessibility somethines don't prepare students
> well to survive on the job. If there are colleges that are truly
> violating the law, we need to apply pressure to change them, not avoid them.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg
> Kearney via nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 12:52 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Greg Kearney <gkearney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>
> I'm not thinking of anything legally binding on the schools I'm
> thinking something along the lines of the U.S. News and World Report
> ratings of colleges. U.S. News and World Report isn't regulating
> colleges and they are not seeking the permission of colleges to rate them in their survey.
>
> Greg
>
>> On Feb 23, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Andy B. via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Not a wise idea since it would take more resources than available,
>> and schools can change policy at a moments notice. Of course, schools
>> aren't regulated by the NFB, so why would they seek approval or want
>> to have the NFB as a regulating body? Most of the ratings are based
>> on opinion much like other rating systems. Thus, buyer beware, which is a present fact.
>> The only difference is no one is telling us to beware.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda
>> Lacy via nfbcs
>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 1:17 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Amanda Lacy <lacy925 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>>
>> Seconded.
>>
>> On 2/23/17, Martin, Vincent F via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I think tha tis a phenomenal idea.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg
>>> Kearney via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 12:25 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Greg Kearney <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>>>
>>> Perhaps the NFB could develop a college ratings system for
>>> accessibility at colleges and universities
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> Greg Kearney
>>> Commonwealth Braille and Talking Book Cooperative
>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Martin, Vincent F via nfbcs
>>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is still such a crapshoot when choosing schools now. As a blind
>>>> person, we really have to work our network really well before we
>>>> consider where we want to go for undergraduate and graduate school.
>>>> School rankings, programs, and areas of research are still a major
>>>> concern, but having to fight the accessibility fight as well can be
>>>> a daunting task.
>>>> Most people I know that had a bad experience with Computer Science
>>>> or any STEM based education mostly had an Accessibility problem and
>>>> not a curriculum problem.
>>>> I even recommended that a fellow blind PhD student choose another
>>>> school to attend for his PhD and he had a NSF fellowship. I
>>>> advised him of this as I found out that I was the first and only
>>>> totally blind student in Georgia Tech's 131 year history. I have
>>>> had nothing but accessibility problems since I arrived for graduate
>>>> school, but felt that I was qualified to work toward my degree and
>>>> fight the fight at the same time.
>>>> I have earned my Master's degree and am in the last year to year
>>>> and a half of my PhD work, and I have done everything to make it
>>>> better for others behind me.
>>>> Unfortunately, I have had to file three different Office of Civil
>>>> Rights complaints against the school and they will soon be signing
>>>> the agreement on the third one. The law is quite clear, but the
>>>> school has been playing a Risk management numbers game in this
>>>> situation. We now have two ADA coordinators on campus (full-time)
>>>> have done a two-year assessment of the built environment and made a
>>>> ten year strategic plan for addressing them, but still are baulking
>>>> at true accessibility in the electronic realm. The new Disability
>>>> services Coordinator has a great new staff and is making strides
>>>> toward fixing years of neglect and I am gladly assisting her. It
>>>> is rare when you find a person that understands that this is a
>>>> social problem and not a technological problem. It truly is an
>>>> attitude that needs to be changed.
>>>> Now, I would recommend that a totally blind person attend the
>>>> school, as I think a newly matriculating student would be
>>>> accommodated. I was even able to clear the path for a mentee of mine to come here.
>>>> He is not totally blind, but does utilize assistive technology to
>>>> help with the reading of the vast numbers of academic journals. He
>>>> was just recently married, and His wife is totally blind and he had
>>>> to assist her over the phone when she was in graduate school at
>>>> another university with her Statistics. He attended an Ivy league
>>>> school and she was at NyU. If you head to NC State or to Berkley,
>>>> you have a much better chance of being properly accommodated, but I
>>>> know UT Austin was a nightmare for a recent Computer Science
>>>> graduate. I know how bad it was for her as I was in contact with
>>>> some sighted students and graduate students when she was there. .
>>>> Colorado is much better now, but they had to be hit over the head
>>>> by the Department of Justice to make them clean up their act.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John
>>>> Heim via nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 10:06 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: John Heim <john at johnheim.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>>>>
>>>> I don't think you can make generalizations based on the size of the
>>>> school. You can run into an uncooperative instructor anywhere. It
>>>> can even depend on who happens to be chair of the department at the time.
>>>> If you run into an uncooperative instructor, is the department
>>>> chair or dean of students going to care? Some do and some don't. I
>>>> have heard stories from students at other institutions that would
>>>> shock any instructor here at the University of Wisconsin.
>>>>
>>>> I can agree with your point about the competition though. I used to
>>>> give a mini-course on latex at the beginning of each school year.
>>>> But fewer and fewer people came to it and we finally stopped doing it.
>>>> Kids come in already knowing latex or they have to pick it up on
>>>> their own. I'm glad I'm not a student any more. The amount of
>>>> partying I did would never cut it these days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 02/23/2017 12:28 AM, David Tseng via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> When it comes down to it, the experience imo, depends on the
>>>>> university.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a big research university, say top 50 in the country, the
>>>>> emphasis is on a fairly challenging course load. The profile of
>>>>> the typical freshman undergrad is someone who has been coding for
>>>>> quite some time, has familiarity with a *nix environment, and is
>>>>> capable of picking up major topics at each lecture (two or three times a week).
>>>>> Classes are typically large; say ~100-200. Professors are
>>>>> extremely brilliant, which also means they go fast. Peers are at
>>>>> the top of their game. CS tends to attract students who exceled in high school.
>>>>> These are kids who took multi variable calculus, discrete math,
>>>>> and linear algebra before even graduating high school.
>>>>>
>>>>> While in undergrad, I spoke with plenty of sighted kids who found
>>>>> the experience daunting :).
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want a taste, you can "preview" much of the lower division
>>>>> classes from Berkeley. CS61A, for example, is the first course and
>>>>> it is a weeder for just about all students.
>>>>> I don't think I know many people, including colleagues, who could
>>>>> stand against the rigorousness of the grading. But, that's why
>>>>> it's a top program. However, in that environment, even little bit
>>>>> counts and blindness is a major disadvantage because you are
>>>>> judged against your peers without having access to 100% of what they've got.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I had one piece of advice to give, skip the CS undergrad unless
>>>>> you're in a lower teir school or a university you know well to be
>>>>> student centric and not heavily weighted towards performance metrics.
>>>>> Get your fancy CS graduate degree :) at a top teir school. That is
>>>>> a totally different animal and quite a bit easier imo. I know of
>>>>> many blind professionals who went to great uni's for their
>>>>> masters/Ph.D's for CS and due to a variety of factors, they all
>>>>> seem to find the experience better than those who took the undergrad route.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Joseph C. Lininger via nfbcs <
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Amanda,
>>>>>> I have to disagree. I currently have an under grad degree in CS,
>>>>>> and I am working on a Ph.D. I am also employed full time as a
>>>>>> computer scientist.
>>>>>> There are some issues the blind will experience with technical
>>>>>> degrees that are unique to those degrees, but it's definitely doable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/22/2017 12:13, Amanda Lacy via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a CS degree. I cannot in good conscience recommend it to
>>>>>>> other blind students unless they accept that they will
>>>>>>> experience a lot of hurt. I don't have satisfying answers to
>>>>>>> most of your questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/21/17, Michael via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Andy,
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your response. Before answering your questions, I
>>>>>>>> will preface my response that this project is entirely
>>>>>>>> predicated on ensuring other blind students, who may be
>>>>>>>> considering computer science, do not do what I did; namely,
>>>>>>>> believing that blind people cannot do computer science. Now,
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> questions:
>>>>>>>> (1) No University, community college, or vocational school is
>>>>>>>> funding this; this is an assignment that I have received on
>>>>>>>> behalf of the Louisiana Center for the Blind (LCB) for my
>>>>>>>> technology class.
>>>>>>>> (2) I graduated from the University of Nevada, Reno, this past
>>>>>>>> December with an Honors B.A. in Philosophy with an emphasis in
>>>>>>>> logic, metaphysics, and epistemology.
>>>>>>>> (3) This guide will serve to educate prospective computer
>>>>>>>> science students who are blind. When I was in high school, I
>>>>>>>> was extremely interested in doing computer science. I was told
>>>>>>>> that blind people could not do computer science; mistakenly, I
>>>>>>>> believed this to be true and thus proceeded into the liberal
>>>>>>>> arts. If I can provide clarity to other students thinking about
>>>>>>>> computer science, or elucidate blind students when it comes to
>>>>>>>> the copasity of blind people, I would be very happy. As it
>>>>>>>> stands, the only place I know for sure this research will end
>>>>>>>> up is the national Association of Blind Students website, as I
>>>>>>>> sit on the board and can make that happen.
>>>>>>>> Otherwise,
>>>>>>>> I have no idea.
>>>>>>>> (4) This is true. I did not make this anonimis. If people are
>>>>>>>> willing to answer, I would be very happy, and will of course
>>>>>>>> cite you, or not cite you, depending on your permission. If
>>>>>>>> people are not willing to, I totally understand that as well.
>>>>>>>> I hope I was able to address your concerns.
>>>>>>>> For anyone else who wishes to help me out, you can email your
>>>>>>>> responses to my email (mausbun at nevada.unr.edu) or, if you feel
>>>>>>>> confortible, just responding to this thread.
>>>>>>>> Thank you again for all your attention and time!
>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>> Michael Ausbun
>>>>>>>> Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Nevada.
>>>>>>>> Secretary, National Association of blind Students Student, The
>>>>>>>> Louisiana Center for the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy B.
>>>>>>>> via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:24 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Andy B. <sonfire11 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am interested in answering these questions. However, you
>>>>>>>> never displayed your credentials or qualifications in the
>>>>>>>> subject. What school is funding this study? Where did you
>>>>>>>> graduate and with what degree? What do you intend on doing with
>>>>>>>> the guide when it is finished? The results of this survey are not anonymous.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, people might be hesitant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Michael via nfbcs
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:45 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Michael <mausbun at nevada.unr.edu>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Research
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello All:
>>>>>>>> My name is Michael Ausbun, and I am currently a student
>>>>>>>> at the Louisiana Center for the Blind. I am conducting
>>>>>>>> research, to develop a comprehensive guide for prospective
>>>>>>>> computer science students. I would much appreciate it if you
>>>>>>>> would take some time and answer the following questions.
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your attention in this matter.
>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>> Michael Ausbun
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Research questions:
>>>>>>>> Advocacy:
>>>>>>>> (1) What accommodations do you believe were most beneficial to
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> completing your degree?
>>>>>>>> (2) What accommodation(s) were necessary when completing visual
>>>>>>>> components
>>>>>>>> of one’s degree requirements?
>>>>>>>> (3) In what ways have you advocated for the modification of
>>>>>>>> materials to
>>>>>>>> ensure equal access for yourself or future computer science
>>>>>>>> students?
>>>>>>>> (4) What is the most important question(s) a computer science
>>>>>>>> student should
>>>>>>>> ask their instructors before and during a selected course of study?
>>>>>>>> (5) Are there any Universities, companies, or organizations who
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> greater benefactors?
>>>>>>>> Academics:
>>>>>>>> (1) How much math and science is necessary for a person to be
>>>>>>>> successful
>>>>>>>> within the computer science field.
>>>>>>>> (2) In general, are materials accessible with access technology?
>>>>>>>> (3) What are some effective, and somewhat universal, techniques
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> manipulating and writing computer languages?
>>>>>>>> (4) In what ways did your assignments get modified, to establish
>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>> access to all requirements?
>>>>>>>> (5) What are some effective ways for designing accessible
>>>>>>>> algorithms
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> data structures?
>>>>>>>> (6) When developing a portfolio, did you find an accessible way
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> publicly
>>>>>>>> displaying your code, or for hosting your portfolio?
>>>>>>>> (7) After publishing your code, what methods do you use to
>>>>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> visible code is visually appealing or readable?
>>>>>>>> (8) Are there any courses you might recommend to take in high
>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> prepare someone going into the computer science field?
>>>>>>>> (9) Besides the source work required to obtain your degree, what
>>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>>> course work might you recommend to enhance one’s employment
>>>>>>>> effectiveness?
>>>>>>>> Access technology:
>>>>>>>> (1) What access technology gave you the greatest degree of
>>>>>>>> opportunity to
>>>>>>>> compete on an equal playing field with your peers?
>>>>>>>> (2) What challenges did access technology present when
>>>>>>>> interacting
>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>> technology required to complete tasks and assignments for your
>>>>>>>> computer science degree or profession?
>>>>>>>> (3) What role does access technology play in the completion of
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> daily
>>>>>>>> assignments or tasks?
>>>>>>>> (4) How might modifications to standard technology create more
>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>> for usability with access technology?
>>>>>>>> General technology:
>>>>>>>> (1) In what ways is the general technology inaccessible when
>>>>>>>> paired
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> access technology? Are there any work arounds for these issues?
>>>>>>>> (2) What sort of accommodations are necessary for the use of
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> general
>>>>>>>> technology used in this field of study or profession?
>>>>>>>> (3) Can standard tasks be completed on a unit without extensive
>>>>>>>> modification
>>>>>>>> or accommodations?
>>>>>>>> Does most technology come ready to use? Are there ways to
>>>>>>>> increase one’s productivity when using Python JavaScript C++
>>>>>>>> swift and racket, and integrated development environments
>>>>>>>> (IDEs)—such as CodeLite, Eclipse, NetBeans, VisualWX, Xcode,
>>>>>>>> and KDevelop?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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