[nfbcs] Research

Thu Feb 23 21:18:36 UTC 2017

I kind of regret not knowing about this list when I was attending college. I had some of the same problems, especially with the equations not being accessible in my math books. I worked with my readers through those, but that unfortunately does not improve accessibility for others.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Martin, Vincent F via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:10 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Martin, Vincent F
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research

Yes they do, but it has been terrible in accommodating people that did not have a Cognitive disability or the basic mobility impairments.  Over 95 percent of the people on campus that are registered with the office have a Cognitive disability.  Of the 23,000 plus students on campus, there are four legally blind and one totally blind student.  
They utilize AMAC Accessible Solutions for most of its alternative media needs.  I was so fed up with getting my Statistics textbooks so late that I had to finally file a complaint.  The first books I got did not even have equations in them.  That was kind of useless.  I would routinely get books halfway through the semester.  Getting the book three months after the class is truly not accessible.  I even requested a few in Braille in hopes that I could get the full book efficiently.  One book arrived near the end of the next semester!  It has also taken a lot to get any PowerPoint presentations in accessible formats as well.  Now a person is on staff twenty percent of the time just to remediate the .PDF journal articles that I have to use for my research.  I would routinely get a journal article in a class that was an  image scan of a bad copy of a journal article or chapter from a book that was published many, many years ago.  I literally spent over ten hours my first year trying to read a twenty page book chapter that I had to try an fix well enough to understand.
The Office of Civil Rights for the Department of Education was so annoyed the second time they were here that they had them agree to do things that they actually could not enforce.  Of course, I got inaccessible questions in my PhD qualifying exam in less than a week later!  I actually got questions that had pictures without descriptions and url's that led to undescribed videos!
The new Disability Coordinator was hired last summer as the previous one and her top subordinate both left within three weeks of the beginning of Spring Semester of 2016.  
Over the years, I have worked with a variety of schools and students in the arena of reasonable accommodations.  You can usually tell if a school is willing to do what is necessary to get a student out of their program and when one is stonewalling for any  of a number of reasons.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Heim via nfbcs
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 1:53 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: John Heim <john at johnheim.com>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research

Doesn't Georga Tech have a disability resource center? At the risk of sounding like I'm bragging, the University Of Wisconsin has a whole department dedicated to helping disabled students.  It has about 20 full time employees and it's own building.
https://mcburney.wisc.edu/information/mission.php
When I was taking courses here, they gave me electronic versions of the text books for free (don't tell anyone) and I never had a problem substituting an accessible program for the equivalent inaccessible one. 
For example, in a security class, I was allowed to use the command line version of wireshark for linux instead of wireshark for Windows. The instructor even thanked me for finding out about that and asked me to do a short presentation to the class on it's use.

I am not involved in all of the access issues on campus but the only complaint I've ever heard was from a student who wanted his textbooks in braille. I am not entirely sure that was a reasonable request on his part. I would tend to say, yeah, if he needs braille, they should get it for him. But maybe he should have been a little more flexable. I'm not sure.

On 02/23/2017 11:21 AM, Martin, Vincent F via nfbcs wrote:
> It is still such a crapshoot when choosing schools now.  As a blind person, we really have to work our network really well before we consider where we want to go for undergraduate and graduate school.  School rankings, programs, and areas of research are still a major concern, but having to fight the accessibility fight as well can be a daunting task.  Most people I know that had a bad experience with Computer Science or any STEM based education mostly had an Accessibility problem and not a curriculum problem.
> I even recommended that a fellow blind PhD student choose another school to attend for his PhD and he had a NSF fellowship.  I advised him of this as I found out that I was the first and only totally blind student in Georgia Tech's 131 year history.  I have had nothing but accessibility problems since I arrived for graduate school, but felt that I was qualified to work toward my degree and fight the fight at the same time.  I have earned my Master's degree and am in the last year to year and a half of my PhD work, and I have done everything to make it better for others behind me.
> Unfortunately, I have had to file three different Office of Civil Rights complaints against the school and they will soon be signing the agreement on the third one.  The law is quite clear, but the school has been playing a Risk management numbers game in this situation.  We now have two ADA coordinators on campus (full-time) have done a two-year assessment of the built environment and made a ten year strategic plan for addressing them, but still are baulking at true accessibility in the electronic realm.  The new Disability services Coordinator has a great new staff and is making strides toward fixing years of neglect and I am gladly assisting her.  It is rare when you find a person that understands that this is a social problem and not a technological problem.  It truly is an attitude that needs to be changed.
> Now, I would recommend that a totally blind person attend the school, as I think a newly matriculating student would be accommodated.  I was even able to clear the path for a mentee of mine to come here.  He is not totally blind, but does utilize assistive technology to help with the reading of the vast numbers of academic journals.  He was just recently married, and His wife is totally blind and he had to assist her over the phone when she was in graduate school at another university with her Statistics.  He attended an Ivy league school and she was at NyU.  If you head to NC State or to Berkley, you have a much better chance of being properly accommodated, but I know UT Austin was a nightmare for a recent Computer Science graduate.  I know how bad it was for her as I was in contact with some sighted students and graduate students when she was there.  .  Colorado is much better now, but they had to be hit over the head by the Department of Justice to make them clean up their act.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Heim 
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 10:06 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: John Heim <john at johnheim.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>
> I don't think you can make generalizations based on the size of the school. You can run into an uncooperative instructor anywhere. It can even depend on who happens to be chair of the department at the time.
> If you run into an uncooperative instructor, is the department chair or dean of students going to care? Some do and some don't. I have heard stories from students at other institutions that would shock any instructor here at the University of Wisconsin.
>
> I can agree with your point about the competition though. I used to give a mini-course on latex at the beginning of each school year. But fewer and fewer people came to it and we finally stopped doing it. Kids come in already knowing latex or they have to pick it up on their own. I'm glad I'm not a student any more. The amount of partying I did would never cut it these days.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 02/23/2017 12:28 AM, David Tseng via nfbcs wrote:
>> When it comes down to it, the experience imo, depends on the university.
>>
>> In a big research university, say top 50 in the country, the emphasis 
>> is on a fairly challenging course load. The profile of the typical 
>> freshman undergrad is someone who has been coding for quite some 
>> time, has familiarity with a *nix environment, and is capable of 
>> picking up major topics at each lecture (two or three times a week).
>> Classes are typically large; say ~100-200. Professors are extremely 
>> brilliant, which also means they go fast. Peers are at the top of 
>> their game. CS tends to attract students who exceled in high school.
>> These are kids who took multi variable calculus, discrete math, and 
>> linear algebra before even graduating high school.
>>
>> While in undergrad, I spoke with plenty of sighted kids who found the 
>> experience daunting :).
>>
>> If you want a taste, you can "preview" much of the lower division 
>> classes from Berkeley. CS61A, for example, is the first course and it 
>> is a weeder for just about all students.
>> I don't think I know many people, including colleagues, who could 
>> stand against the rigorousness of the grading. But, that's why it's a 
>> top program. However, in that environment, even little bit counts and 
>> blindness is a major disadvantage because you are judged against your 
>> peers without having access to 100% of what they've got.
>>
>> If I had one piece of advice to give, skip the CS undergrad unless 
>> you're in a lower teir school or a university you know well to be 
>> student centric and not heavily weighted towards performance metrics.
>> Get your fancy CS graduate degree :) at a top teir school. That is a 
>> totally different animal and quite a bit easier imo. I know of many 
>> blind professionals who went to great uni's for their masters/Ph.D's 
>> for CS and due to a variety of factors, they all seem to find the 
>> experience better than those who took the undergrad route.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Joseph C. Lininger via nfbcs < 
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Amanda,
>>> I have to disagree. I currently have an under grad degree in CS, and 
>>> I am working on a Ph.D. I am also employed full time as a computer scientist.
>>> There are some issues the blind will experience with technical 
>>> degrees that are unique to those degrees, but it's definitely doable.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/22/2017 12:13, Amanda Lacy via nfbcs wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a CS degree. I cannot in good conscience recommend it to 
>>>> other blind students unless they accept that they will experience a 
>>>> lot of hurt. I don't have satisfying answers to most of your questions.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/21/17, Michael via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Andy,
>>>>> Thank you for your response. Before answering your questions, I 
>>>>> will preface my response that this project is entirely predicated 
>>>>> on ensuring other blind students, who may be considering computer 
>>>>> science, do not do what I did; namely, believing that blind people 
>>>>> cannot do computer science. Now, your
>>>>> questions:
>>>>> (1) No University, community college, or vocational school is 
>>>>> funding this; this is an assignment that I have received on behalf 
>>>>> of the Louisiana Center for the Blind (LCB) for my technology 
>>>>> class.
>>>>> (2) I graduated from the University of Nevada, Reno, this past 
>>>>> December with an Honors B.A. in Philosophy with an emphasis in 
>>>>> logic, metaphysics, and epistemology.
>>>>> (3) This guide will serve to educate prospective computer science 
>>>>> students who are blind. When I was in high school, I was extremely 
>>>>> interested in doing computer science. I was told that blind people 
>>>>> could not do computer science; mistakenly, I believed this to be 
>>>>> true and thus proceeded into the liberal arts. If I can provide 
>>>>> clarity to other students thinking about computer science, or 
>>>>> elucidate blind students when it comes to the copasity of blind 
>>>>> people, I would be very happy. As it stands, the only place I know 
>>>>> for sure this research will end up is the national Association of 
>>>>> Blind Students website, as I sit on the board and can make that happen.
>>>>> Otherwise,
>>>>> I have no idea.
>>>>> (4) This is true. I did not make this anonimis. If people are 
>>>>> willing to answer, I would be very happy, and will of course cite 
>>>>> you, or not cite you, depending on your permission. If people are 
>>>>> not willing to, I totally understand that as well.
>>>>> I hope I was able to address your concerns.
>>>>> For anyone else who wishes to help me out, you can email your 
>>>>> responses to my email (mausbun at nevada.unr.edu) or, if you feel 
>>>>> confortible, just responding to this thread.
>>>>> Thank you again for all your attention and time!
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Michael Ausbun
>>>>> Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Nevada.
>>>>> Secretary, National Association of blind Students Student, The 
>>>>> Louisiana Center for the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy B.
>>>>> via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:24 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Andy B. <sonfire11 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Research
>>>>>
>>>>> I am interested in answering these questions. However, you never 
>>>>> displayed your credentials or qualifications in the subject. What 
>>>>> school is funding this study? Where did you graduate and with what 
>>>>> degree? What do you intend on doing with the guide when it is 
>>>>> finished? The results of this survey are not anonymous. Therefore, 
>>>>> people might be hesitant.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
>>>>> via nfbcs
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:45 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Michael <mausbun at nevada.unr.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Research
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello All:
>>>>>         My name is Michael Ausbun, and I am currently a student at 
>>>>> the Louisiana Center for the Blind. I am conducting research, to 
>>>>> develop a comprehensive guide for prospective computer science 
>>>>> students. I would much appreciate it if you would take some time 
>>>>> and answer the following questions.
>>>>>         Thank you for your attention in this matter.
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Michael Ausbun
>>>>>
>>>>> Research questions:
>>>>> Advocacy:
>>>>> (1)     What accommodations do you believe were most beneficial to you in
>>>>> completing your degree?
>>>>> (2)     What accommodation(s) were necessary when completing visual
>>>>> components
>>>>> of one’s degree requirements?
>>>>> (3)     In what ways have you advocated for the modification of
>>>>> materials to
>>>>> ensure equal access for yourself or future computer science students?
>>>>> (4)     What is the most important question(s) a computer science
>>>>> student should
>>>>> ask their instructors before and during a selected course of study?
>>>>> (5)     Are there any Universities, companies, or organizations who have
>>>>> been
>>>>> greater benefactors?
>>>>> Academics:
>>>>> (1)     How much math and science is necessary for a person to be
>>>>> successful
>>>>> within the computer science field.
>>>>> (2)     In general, are materials accessible with access technology?
>>>>> (3)     What are some effective, and somewhat universal, techniques for
>>>>> manipulating and writing computer languages?
>>>>> (4)     In what ways did your assignments get modified, to establish
>>>>> equal
>>>>> access to all requirements?
>>>>> (5)     What are some effective ways for designing accessible algorithms
>>>>> and
>>>>> data structures?
>>>>> (6)     When developing a portfolio, did you find an accessible way of
>>>>> publicly
>>>>> displaying your code, or for hosting your portfolio?
>>>>> (7)     After publishing your code, what methods do you use to ensure the
>>>>> visible code is visually appealing or readable?
>>>>> (8)     Are there any courses you might recommend to take in high school
>>>>> to
>>>>> prepare someone going into the computer science field?
>>>>> (9)     Besides the source work required to obtain your degree, what
>>>>> additional
>>>>> course work might you recommend to enhance one’s employment 
>>>>> effectiveness?
>>>>> Access technology:
>>>>> (1)     What access technology gave you the greatest degree of
>>>>> opportunity to
>>>>> compete on an equal playing field with your peers?
>>>>> (2)     What challenges did access technology present when interacting
>>>>> with the
>>>>> technology required to complete tasks and assignments for your 
>>>>> computer science degree or profession?
>>>>> (3)     What role does access technology play in the completion of your
>>>>> daily
>>>>> assignments or tasks?
>>>>> (4)     How might modifications to standard technology create more
>>>>> opportunity
>>>>> for usability with access technology?
>>>>> General technology:
>>>>> (1)     In what ways is the general technology inaccessible when paired
>>>>> with
>>>>> access technology? Are there any work arounds for these issues?
>>>>> (2)     What sort of accommodations are necessary for the use of most
>>>>> general
>>>>> technology used in this field of study or profession?
>>>>> (3)     Can standard tasks be completed on a unit without extensive
>>>>> modification
>>>>> or accommodations?
>>>>> Does most technology come ready to use? Are there ways to increase 
>>>>> one’s productivity when using Python JavaScript C++ swift and 
>>>>> racket, and integrated development environments (IDEs)—such as 
>>>>> CodeLite, Eclipse, NetBeans, VisualWX, Xcode, and KDevelop?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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