[nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students with math

Andy B. sonfire11 at gmail.com
Tue Jan 17 19:44:11 UTC 2017 

In my case, I didn't have a choice on the course sequence. I had to take VB,
C#, and Java before getting to my math courses.


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E
via nfbcs
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 2:13 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Walker, Michael E <michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students with
math

Yes. I found it beneficial to work with a reader, to take my math courses,
in addition to using my PAC Mate Omni's calculator and Excel on my computer,
where appropriate. Again, the thing to keep in mind in my case is I was on
the business side, majoring in information systems.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell via
nfbcs
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 1:08 PM
To: Tracy Carcione via nfbcs
Cc: Jude DaShiell; Tracy Carcione
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students with
math

I don't recommend anyone try studying a programming language and a math
course at the same time.  I had the programming language as preparatory to
the math courses.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:

> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:20:33
> From: Tracy Carcione via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
> 
> I want to add to Andy's point that learning shouldn't require the 
> student to learn something else new while simultaneously learning the 
> course matter at hand.
> It seemed to me that some people are advocating using a programming 
> language to study math.  I think one would need to be comfortable with 
> a program or language, before one could use it to learn advanced math.
>
> Way back when I took algebra, I did it with braille and a abacus, and 
> frequently reminding the teacher to say what he was pointing at on the 
> board.  But I wouldn't expect a student to use braille in math class 
> if the student was just learning braille.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy B. via 
> nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 11:05 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Andy B.
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> When do these peer reviewed sources discuss the application of 
> learning in a least effective manner while attending a time limited 
> course? I surely don't feel like learning the hard way during an 8 
> week course. Adults want to know when they need to know, and only the
amount needed to get the job done.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Walker, 
> Michael E via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 10:57 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Walker, Michael E <michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> What do the peer-reviewed studies say in terms of how people should be 
> taught to learn with all modalities?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Martin, 
> Vincent F via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 9:51 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: Martin, Vincent F
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> Unfortunately we keep veering into an area that should be left out of
this.
> There is no learning style.  It is a myth and cannot be substantiated 
> by any peer reviewed, evidence based study.  People may have a 
> preferred or most comfortable method for learning, but all studies 
> that have been done have shown that people can be taught to learn with all
modalities.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Walker, 
> Michael E via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 9:16 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Walker, Michael E <michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> Yes, Andy certainly has a point there. There is more than one way to 
> teach
> math: graphing and advanced calculations. Actually, there are three 
> things that the standard must consider: age, learning style, and the 
> course the student is taking. In College Algebra, the student is not 
> going to be performing a whole lot of advanced calculations, like they 
> would in upper level math courses, like calculus and above. When I say 
> "Calculus," I am not referring to Business Calculus. I am talking 
> about the regular Calculus sequence that math, science, and 
> engineering majors take. As far as what tools to use to teach math, 
> yes some blind students may do better with tactile graphs. Others may 
> do better with existing software or through some basic programming 
> skills in a programming language. Again, that is why it goes back to 
> the student's learning style, course, and age. Thank you for sharing 
> this perspective, Andy. I also agree with your comparison to programming
environments. I might li!
> ke using Eclipse for certain projects, where others may like Notepad++ 
> or NetBeans. We should therefore strive for equal access across all 
> environments and learning styles that we can.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy B. via 
> nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:07 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Andy B.
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> The problem with accessibility standards is they might not support a 
> student's learning style. In my family, there are three different 
> learning styles when it comes to math. One who can see graphs, but 
> doesn't understand advanced calculations. Another that has problems 
> understanding all of it, and the last one, who understands a fair 
> amount of both. If we decide that tactile graphs are part of the 
> standard, then the standard excludes me as a math learner because I 
> don't do well with tactile representations of visual concepts. If we 
> say audio output will be part of the standard, then it puts most 
> people out of the learning pool because audio output for graphs is a 
> very difficult skill to learn. In our example, we left out the person 
> that can see graphs, but doesn't understand advanced calculations. The 
> standard must consider age groups and learning style. Further, there 
> must be more than one standard to account for these differences in age and
learning styles.
> Programming IDEs are similar. There isn't a single accessibility 
> standard because of the varying learning styles out there. Personally, 
> I am glad Apple, Google, Freedom Scientific, the ACB, NFB, or other 
> major organization didn't lock me into their workflow. There is a 
> difference between making a student a puppet and teaching from 
> accessible material. This begs the
> question: What does accessible math or programming materials look like?
> Putting aside preferences biases, etc, what should the standard look like?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Walker, 
> Michael E via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:40 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Walker, Michael E <michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> Hi Rick, I totally agree with you about the idea of several solutions 
> that are time consuming, and no single body to enforce a standard. I 
> guess that is why at this time, I maintain the belief that we need to 
> figure out what to use, based on the math course the student is 
> taking, and his or her degree program.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rick Thomas 
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 6:20 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Rick Thomas
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> Hi Guys:
> Math is another whole animal as is diagramming.
> Andy has found a package he has been able to use to work through his 
> Masters Degree using it to produce diagrams when necessary.
> As for math that is something folks have talked about and tried to 
> address for many years now.
> Recently I tried the modern solutions and found them all wanting so 
> badly that I gave up trying to learn advanced math as a hobby and the 
> folks on the blind math lists indicate they still have to use audio 
> reproductions of materials or braille reproductions when they can get
them.
> As programmers, hopefully somewhat advanced, you might think that 
> there would be a solid solution and you would be correct - several of 
> them actually.
> The problem, as usual, is not that there is no technological solutions 
> but that there is not one technological solution and there is no 
> enforcement body to ensure a solution is implemented.
> The current solutions are very time consuming, and thus expensive,  to 
> implement by authors and publishers and only work marginally well for 
> screen reader users unless every I is dotted and t crossed in some 
> pretty detailed, confusing and time consuming  processes required of
authors and publishers.
> Thus most authors and publishers avoid them if they can and only do 
> enough to get government approval when they are required to do so.
> But you all know this I am sure so I will just leave it at we need 
> some organization with the power to organize, analyze, design, 
> implement and force a solid, easy to use  and viable solution via the 
> government or nothing will get better - oh wait, isnt this nfb thingy 
> suppose to be such an organization (confused look on my face).
> Rick USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jude 
> DaShiell via nfbcs
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 4:06 PM
> To: Andy Borka via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
> with math
>
> I would think even for an Information Science Major latex would get 
> real useful in at least two kinds of exercises.  First production of 
> flowcharts and second production of data flow diagrams.  It could 
> probably do other things really well too.
>
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2017, Andy Borka via nfbcs wrote:
>
>> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:56:04
>> From: Andy Borka via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Andy Borka <sonfire11 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind students 
>> with math
>>
>> It is a test method of learning something. If you can teach it to 
>> someone
> that doesn?t know the subject, then you have learned it well.
>>
>>> On Jan 16, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Sabra Ewing via nfbcs 
>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, but that is a very complicated way to go about things, 
>>> especially
> when programs already exist.
>>>
>>> Sabra Ewing
>>>
>>>> On Jan 16, 2017, at 11:09 AM, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs 
>>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That would work for the business end; that would very probably not 
>>>> work
> for the scientific or engineering end.
>>>>
>>>> Since I had already learned to program in basic before I studied
> statistics I wrote many small programs that actually did the 
> statistics calculations on entered data and my instructor told me I 
> would understand statistics better that way doing that kind of 
> programming since I could explain it to the computer.
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2017, Walker, Michael E via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 10:22:15
>>>>> From: "Walker, Michael E via nfbcs" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To: "nfbcs at nfbnet.org" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: "Walker, Michael E" <michael.e.walker3 at boeing.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Seeking suggestions for helping blind 
>>>>> students with math Hi, what worked for me when taking math classes 
>>>>> was using my
> PAC Mate Omni with a Braille display. Since I only had to take lower 
> level math classes like college algebra, basic calculus (also often 
> called business calculus), basic probability and statistics, and 
> business statistics, I didn't worry about fancy math packages like 
> LaTeX for learning the concepts. I know that LaTeX is a markup 
> language of its own, that one must spend time learning. For college 
> algebra and calculus, what often got me by for doing things with 
> fractions was denoting by parentheses. For example, I might write 
> something like (x+3)/(x+5). Those opening and closing parentheses 
> would make the operator precedence more clear in terms of what should 
> be in the numerator and denominator. For statistics, we sometimes just 
> used word form, instead of the special mathematical symbols (i.e. x 
> bar). Since the statistics classes were for business majors, we often used
Excel to perform our calculations.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know there will be folks who disagree with me on this list in 
>>>>> terms
> of the fact that you need to know the actual math symbols, but also 
> remember that I wasn't aiming to become a blind mathematician. My goal 
> was to work in IT, such as with installing servers and writing 
> business application software, so what I mentioned above still got me 
> by just fine. I got A's and B's in all my math courses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
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