[nfbcs] purpose of division

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Sun Nov 25 01:10:55 UTC 2018 

I’m not Aaron, but I’m handy.

CAPTCHA (which stands for something…it’s an acronym, and I’d look it up if I cared) is the general term for this specific sort of test. ReCAPTCHA is Google’s implementation of the test. It used to be a right royal pain, but its latest iterations are quite good. Usually, you can check a box that says “I’m not a robot” and you’re good to go. If it can’t determine your humanness by the way you navigate to the checkbox, it will ask you to identify the pictures with a specific element in them, or you can click for an audio challenge. The audio challenge asks you to type in the words from a short, say, 2-3 second audio clip. Unlike past iterations of the Recaptcha audio challenge, these are just straight audio cut out of some generally available audio clip without added distortion or artifacts. There may be a word fragment at the beginning or end, which of Course you can safely ignore.

> On Nov 24, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Aaron,
> 
> Would you or somebody explain ReCAPTCHA versus CAPTCHA?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Aaron Cannon via nfbcs
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2018 5:22 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Aaron Cannon <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] purpose of division
> 
> Which browser are you on?
> 
> This appears to be a ReCAPTCHA, which tend to work a lot better if you
> first login to your google account in the same browser first.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Aaron
> 
> On 11/24/18, Bryan Schulz via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Thank you for providing an overview.
>> This was not the first time I have found this style of captia, it just
>> seems
>> to be found more often and spurred irritation.
>> The site was www.rc10.com and the captia is found after hitting the login
>> link then the create account link.
>> There was a chance for an audio challenge but jaws said it was not
>> available.
>> Bryan Schulz
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via
>> nfbcs
>> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2018 2:45 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] purpose of division
>> 
>> Bryan,
>> 
>> When trying to figure out the purpose of your messages I am always left
>> wondering if you really want an answer to questions or are you just
> wanting
>> a chance to take a shot at us.  I think, though, there is a reasonable
>> chance that trying to answer your questions is worthwhile.
>> 
>> First, I don't know that NFBCS was ever seen as a vehicle for general
>> advocacy.  That has always been more a function of our national
>> organization
>> as a whole.  As a long-time NFBCS member and officer, I do feel we serve a
>> useful purpose by working with specific companies with which we have had
>> long-term relationships and by trying to make information available.
> Also,
>> people on this list can sometimes be a useful resource in finding
>> workarounds.  Collectively, we have expertise that can help to understand
>> why a problem exists and maybe even help to prioritize which problems can
>> likely be solved easily and which cannot.
>> 
>> I readily admit that it is sometimes difficult to know where it is best to
>> bring a concern about accessibility, though.  Sometimes some of us can
> help
>> with that.  The cold hard facts, though, are that we still have too many
>> accessibility issues to successfully deal with every one brought to our
>> attention.  One of the areas I volunteer in is dealing with Microsoft.
>> There are so many issues even with Microsoft that we are not able to push
>> all of them effectively, even though we've seen a good deal of progress.
>> Also, we need people who actually have the experience with a given problem
>> to help.  I know nothing about the testing software you mention so can't
>> deal with specifics of that very effectively.  I don't remember exactly
> how
>> you brought the accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software  issues to
>> NFBCS, but this isn't an issue with which I was familiar.  If you describe
>> the issue in more detail, I am certainly willing to raise it with
> Microsoft
>> whenever I am next in a meeting with them.  Even so, sometimes we have to
>> decide where to push hardest.  An issue like this sometimes gets less
>> emphasis than an issue like not being able to enter a password in Outlook
>> when the credentials screen doesn't get focus because that may affect more
>> people.
>> 
>> One also has to understand that there is no law that says everything has
> to
>> be accessible.  There are clear laws that require accessibility in
> specific
>> cases, but this means that we can't just launch a lawsuit for any
>> accessibility issue.  Sometimes the law covers institutions that use a
>> given
>> pice of software and not the actual creators of software, for example.
>> This
>> doesn't mean there isn't anything that can be done, but it can affect the
>> path taken, and it often means that solutions take a long time to find.
> We
>> need help from our members sometimes to really understand a problem and to
>> document it and help us move forward with it.
>> 
>> Finally, CAPTCHAs are a real challenge.  Some of us have been trying to
>> affect their use for a long time.  I share your fear that the use of AIRA,
>> Be My Eyes, and other such solutions may give some companies an excuse not
>> to do anything, and this cannot become acceptable.  Audio CAPTCHAs are
>> pretty common now and you didn't say if the company you dealt with had one
>> or not.  This is a fairly accepted solution among those who require
>> CAPTCHAs, but it still leaves out those who have both vision and hearing
>> loss.  My experience has been that audio CAPTCHAs are more reliable now
>> than
>> they have been in the past.  I have personally looked at some alternatives
>> that appear to work but turn out to have limitations.  When you look at
> the
>> ability of SIRI, Alexa, and Google Home to analyze and break down the
>> syntax
>> of questions asked of them, it is clear that most word problem solutions
>> offer limited protection from robots attempting to gain access to a
> system.
>> It is starting to appear that Google is a major player in CAPTCHAs,
> though.
>> Many companies use Google's CAPTCHA service.  Possibly that may provide a
>> useful pressure point.
>> 
>> Bryan, I realize this is probably not a satisfactory answer.  Also, the
>> president of NFBCS may have more to say on this as well.  However, laying
>> out the specific problems you are having, even on this list, can be
> helpful
>> by making more of us aware of what people are encountering.  Also,
>> sometimes, it may turn out somebody else has found a workaround or may be
>> further along in pursuing a solution.  Finally, sometimes it is helpful to
>> those of us who volunteer in this area to be reminded of the common
>> frustrations being encountered.  This can help us know, both as the NFBCS
>> division and as an organization as a whole, how we can most effectively
>> approach issues.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz via nfbcs
>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 3:49 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: [nfbcs] purpose of division
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This may be a bit off topic because it is actually a web site issue.
>> 
>> In my opinion the cs division doesn't do much especially towards advocacy
>> with topics that affect using computers/web sites.
>> 
>> Several months ago, there was no interest by the division to address cisco
>> software or the topic of accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My point today deals with website captia systems.
>> 
>> You have probably had to ask for visual assistance with what happens after
>> you check the box with the words 'I am not a robot'.
>> 
>> Blind computer users are not going to know which pictures to click when
> the
>> instruction says something like click all of the stop signs.
>> 
>> You will probably react by saying use aira and the person will tell you
>> where to move the mouse.
>> 
>> Well the cheapest plan is about $50 a month for only 60 minutes of help
>> time
>> and that shouldn't be required.
>> 
>> I had to place an order today to get a great deal and couldn't wait for
>> someone to respond from the company and was able to create an account
> after
>> obtaining visual assistance.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I continue to feel left to flap in the wind by the nfb/nfbcs and it seems
>> nothing is done once a year other than asking several people to speak at
>> the
>> division meeting at the convention.
>> 
>> I'm sure this will ruffle feathers but so what, nothing is being done
>> anyway
>> so tell me the purpose of the division!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bryan Schulz
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---
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>> 
>> 
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>> 
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