[NFBCS] Linux users

Tue Aug 6 00:31:43 UTC 2019

Microsoft is popular because it integrates social media and cultural 
aspects of society into Windows. For example, the touchscreen, tablet 
mode, settings sync, notifications in the action center... They 
facilitate the need for people, especially the younger generations to 
explore. Linux has the notion that whoever uses it does so because it is 
either  required, or the user has to get work done. This isn't true, but 
the new user in Windows just uses a feature that isn't quite installed 
yet, and Microsoft takes care of the rest. They are personal with the 
dialog messages as well. Linux users have to go to an obscure location 
(terminal) and type a ton of cryptic commands (apt-get) and watch a ton 
of scroll that means nothing. Why can't you suggest to Linux that you 
want a feature, and have it take care of the rest? This is why 
Grandmother doesn't want to use Linux.

On 8/5/19 11:23 AM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
> Well, when you say bash is the real power behind linux, I am guessing 
> you mean that its main advantage for blind people is that almost 
> everything can be done at the command line. Which is true. I know 
> several blind sys admins who do not use the GUI. I think that is a 
> mistake though. Email and text editing are big enough problems. But 
> there is no substitute for a GUI web browser.
>
> The documentation for Linux is much, much better than that for any 
> other operating system. Every question has already been asked and 
> answered. All you have to do is google.
>
> I am not going to say that the linux GuI is as easy to use as Windows. 
> There is a reason Microsoft is as successful as it is. But the Linux 
> GUI is pretty good too.
>
> On 8/4/19 3:25 PM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
>> Hello Jack,
>>
>> I appreciate your feedback. I agree with you that computers do what 
>> we tell them too, after all that is what they are built to do. 
>> Unfortunately computers are also built to execute software that we 
>> build and that software does not always work as intended for the same 
>> guiding principals you pointed out, they do what we tell them to do. 
>> I teach software courses at Arizona State and I tell my students 
>> every semester, you might have code that executes but just because it 
>> executes does not mean that it is doing what you intended it to do. I 
>> also agree Linux is a very useful and powerful operating system. 
>> Unfortunately Linux is not the real power it is the bash or 
>> equivalent shells that offer the real power. I asked my questions 
>> this morning because I have always been interested in using a stand 
>> alone Linux box but have always grown frustrated when tasks I am 
>> trying to execute do not work as specified. I understand there is a 
>> learning curve with any new technology including operating systems or 
>> screen readers, but if the documentation for the OS and/or screen 
>> reader do not work as stated I have a hard time believing it is user 
>> error. Thank you for your suggestion on the linux orca list I am 
>> actually a part of that list and have been for several years. I never 
>> really post to the list mostly because I am not an orca user. When I 
>> wrote this email this morning I just figured the NFB CS list would be 
>> just as beneficial as the orca list for my question especially after 
>> the CS division meeting focused on Linux during Harry's presentation.
>>
>> Finally I would agree that there are great careers and opportunities 
>> that open up to someone when they are able to interact with Linux 
>> based systems. With this being said I have never had the need to 
>> interact with a Linux based system through the GUI. I create, manage, 
>> and deploy to Linux based systems all the time and I do it all 
>> through the command line. I am well versed in bash and believe any 
>> individual blind or not should have a strong command line 
>> understanding if they are doing anything in software. I am a software 
>> developer in the embedded systems and distributed applications area 
>> so although I do a lot of client server development and server 
>> management it is not my main focus for a career at all. Again the 
>> main reason for my email was to simply gain a better understanding of 
>> the experiences of those who are using Linux desktop through the use 
>> of a screen reader. I acknowledge my impatience in dedicating more 
>> time to really diving into Linux to figure out all the kinks and 
>> methods but as any individual who works, goes to school, or goes to 
>> school and works there is too little time. Thank you again for all 
>> your feedback and sharing your computer specs and version of Linux. I 
>> will have to look into speak up a bit more but for now my focus is on 
>> learning how Orca can help me to become a stand alone Linux user.
>>
>>
>> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>>
>> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
>> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
>> IGERT Fellow
>> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
>> Phone: 480-652-3045
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com 
>>> <mailto:john at johnheim.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a feeling that you are looking at this the wrong way. You say 
>>> commands didn't work. But what that means is that you were typing 
>>> the wrong thing. I mean, it's a computer, it does what you tell it 
>>> to do. Switching operating systems is challenging even for sighted 
>>> people. A blind person has to learn a screen reader at the same 
>>> time. It can be incredibly frustrating. So only you can say whether 
>>> the time and effort it will take to learn linux and orca is worth it 
>>> to you.
>>>
>>>
>>> I see that you are a CS student. I would highly recommend that you 
>>> teach yourself to use linux. I think you are very much restricting 
>>> your career opportunities if you don't. Linux is big at affirmative 
>>> action employers like universities. At any one time at the 
>>> University Of Wisconsin, there are probably 3 to 6 open positions 
>>> for linux systems administrators. They're just aren't enough 
>>> applicants for the jobs. In the private sector in Madison, WI, 
>>> starting salary for a linux sysadmin is about $80k. I've been 
>>> offered interviews in NYC and Silicon Valley for jobs paying $250k.
>>>
>>>
>>> I use debian and ubuntu linux. Those are two of the best with 
>>> respect to accessibility. I would recommend that you join the orca 
>>> support email list. Orca has an extremely active support community.  
>>> Subscribe at orca-list-request at gnome.org 
>>> <mailto:orca-list-request at gnome.org>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/4/19 11:59 AM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your response. I guess I should have been a bit more 
>>>> specific. I use A Mac with voiceover and I live in the Unix command 
>>>> line. I have no issue using Linux command line I have an issue 
>>>> using the Linux desktop. I have never had any luck with Linux with 
>>>> Orca in the Desktop environment. I bought a HP laptop about a yer 
>>>> ago specifically to install Linux on it. I did and found that 
>>>> commands did not work and I grew frustrated. I wanted to use the 
>>>> command line which I was able to do but then commands to review the 
>>>> stdout did not work,. If you have any further feedback on what 
>>>> version of Linux you are running, maybe the specs of your computer, 
>>>> Orca config, etc I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Bryan Duarte
>>>>
>>>> PhD Computer Science Research student
>>>> IGERT Fellow, CUbiC Lab, Arizona State University
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com 
>>>>> <mailto:john at johnheim.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been using linux and orca so long I cannot really tell you 
>>>>> how it compares to jaws or nvda. I manage the research computing 
>>>>> cluster for the Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin. I 
>>>>> think in 2019 it is fair to say that all computational research is 
>>>>> done on linux machines. I haven't checked for years but the last 
>>>>> couple of times I checked, all 500 of the top 500 supercomputers 
>>>>> were running linux. You have big problems if you are using a 
>>>>> Windows desktop and a linux server. It is way easier just to 
>>>>> switch to linux on your desktop. So I haven't used Windows for 20 
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a Mac laptop so I can kind of compare orca and voiceOver. I 
>>>>> am no Mac expert. But I would say orca and voiceOver are 
>>>>> approximately equally good.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/4/19 11:11 AM, Bryan Duarte via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>> Hey ya'll,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am sure to some this is a ridiculous question but I need to ask 
>>>>>> any way. I have been using Linux for years but mostly through an 
>>>>>> SSH connection to a server instance on either AWS or a PI or 
>>>>>> designated server in my lab. My question is does any one have any 
>>>>>> feedback on using it stand alone with Orca or some other screen 
>>>>>> reader? If so plese share your experiences.
>>>>>> Bryan Duarte
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PhD Computer Science Research student
>>>>>> IGERT Fellow, CUbiC Lab, Arizona State University
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>
>
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