[NFBCS] best solution for remote linux terminal work

Fri Aug 7 20:50:07 UTC 2020

	hello Chris.  I may be working from out of date knowledge, but here
goes.
In my view, the largest impediment to using a Windows based ssh client from
either the GUI or the command line is that once you've got a terminal open,
it's very difficult to know where the cursor is and how the screen is laid
out.  Yes, you can type and here responses, but if you're using a full
screen editor like vi/vim or a full screen browser like lynx, it's very
difficult to know where your cursor is on the screen.  The most common
problem I run into is if I'm in a Windows command line, and I open up a ssh
session and then, in that session, try to edit a file with vi, it's very
hard for me to tell what the X Y coordinates of a given character are in my
edit window.  This makes it very challenging to write well formatted
text or programs, i.e. C with proper indentation or Perl with proper
indentation or, a real must, python with proper indentation.  In my native
linux/Unix/Yasr environment, this is not a problem.  I can get the row and
column information for every character on my screen at any time.
	It may be that Secure-CRT solves this problem, as you've suggested,
but I've not used that program.  I've used putty and openssh, which don't
provide that functionality with Jaws or NVDA as far as I'm aware.  In the
past I've asked VFO about this, and they don't seem to understand the
problem.  Perhaps they do now, but I haven't asked for a long time.
	If it's more efficient for you to copy files from Linux and edit them
on your Windows machine, then copy them back up to the Linux machine when
you're done, so be it.  In my view, this is highly inefficient and fraught
with a lot of different issues, not the least of which is that Linux/Unix
use a different sequence of characters for representing new lines in files.
That can really trip you up when you're trying to edit configuration files
that are being read by programs that don't expect that variability.  
	Anyway, that,in a nut shell, is the most glaring issue I'm aware of.
-Brian
On Aug 7,  3:25pm, Chris Nestrud via NFBCS wrote:
} Subject: Re: [NFBCS] best solution for remote linux terminal work
} Brian,
} 
} Just trying to get more information. Can you give a couple examples of
} how a Windows-based screen reader using a command-line ssh client is
} inferior to a Linux-based screen reader using a command-line ssh client?
} I know that cursor tracking can be hard to get right in some GUI
} Windows ssh clients, but it works well out of the box in command-line clients and in
} my experience it works quite well once properly configured in GUI
} clients provided that the screen reader plays nicely. I'm just trying to
} figure out the advantage of a separate Linux machine or VM given that
} it's a lot to set up just for an ssh client and the separate environment
} will make things such as copy/paste between Windows and Linux more
} difficult. For example I'll often copy the entire Secure CRT buffer,
} paste it into notepad, remove unneeded text, and paste the result in a
} Microsoft Teams message or email. What am I missing by not using Linux
} to host my ssh client?
} 
} Chris
} 
} On Fri, Aug 07, 2020 at 12:48:57PM -0700, Brian Buhrow via NFBCS wrote:
} > 	hello.   Another possibility is to install the Ubuntu software on
} > Windows 10 and use Yasr on the Ubuntu windows and Jaws or NVDA on the browser
} > windows.  If you're using a command line terminal environment, Linux screen
} > readers are far better than any Windows based screen readers and will make
} > you  much much more efficient in that environment.  I don't know what Jira
} > is, but if there is a way to get at it with a browser that's not javascript
} > capable, then the Lynx browser works very well in terminal environments and
} > wil give you full access.  The tmux program will allow you to cut and paste
} > from window to window inside your terminal environment.  Alternatively, if
} > there are command line tools that can access the Jira data, you might find
} > that is a better way to go.  Or, yet another way, is if you're handy with
} > scripting languages and curl, you may be able to write yourself some
} > scripts that put the data where you need it using curl.  
} > 	I have not tried the Ubuntu under Windows environment yet, so don't
} > know if you can cut and paste between the two environments, but I'm
} > guessing you can, so that might be a sufficient solution for your needs.
} > 	What you'll find is that if you teach yourself how stuff works under
} > the hood, there are often different ways to get a job done and, by learning
} > that stuff, you'll find you increase your value as an employee.
} > 
} > -thanks
} > -Brian
} > 
} > 
} > On Aug 7, 12:55pm, Ryan Boudwin wrote:
} > } Subject: Re: [NFBCS] best solution for remote linux terminal work
} > } --0000000000004f88fa05ac4e27bb
} > } Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
} > } 
} > } I'd also need to be able to use web applications and copy and paste
} > } terminal output into JIRA; I'm concerned with how well that would work on a
} > } linux-only box. I haven't used a linux screen reader before but I have
} > } heard it's not the best experience.
} > } 
} > } Best regards,
} > } 
} > } Ryan Boudwin
} > } ryanboudwin at gmail.com
} > } 
} > } 
} > } 
} > } On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:40 PM Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org> wrote:
} > } 
} > } >         hello.  As a long time Unix person who uses terminals over ssh on a
} > } > daily basis with screen readers, I strongly recommend you build yourself a
} > } > Linux box and ssh to your remote sites from there.  Then, you can either
} > } > use Speakup or Yasr as your screen reader.  I use Yasr with the
} > } > eflite/flite
} > } > software speech engine.  This combination of software will give you full
} > } > access to screen oriented programs in terminal environments.  While I think
} > } > things are changing a bit, terminal access using Jaws, NVDA or VoiceOver
} > } > is, in my experience, doable, but very very suboptimal.  As proof of that,
} > } > you'll  probably get a number of folks writing back on this question
} > } > suggesting that terminal access works fine using the Windows screen
} > } > readers, but that you'll find it easier to edit files on the local Windows
} > } > machine and then transfer them up using scp or some other file transfer
} > } > protocol once you're done.  that is a very inefficient way to edit files on
} > } > remote servers.  The combination of software I suggest lets me edit files
} > } > with ease in their native environments on the servers on which they belong.
} > } >
} > } > Hope this helps.
} > } > -Brian
} > } >
} > } > On Aug 7, 11:59am, Ryan Boudwin via NFBCS wrote:
} > } > } Subject: [NFBCS] best solution for remote linux terminal work
} > } > } Hey folks,
} > } > }
} > } > } I am considering a return to a technical individual contributor role. The
} > } > } job requires a significant amount of terminal work, over SSH to remote
} > } > } linux servers.
} > } > }
} > } > } What OS/screen reader/ssh client combination is the best/easiest/most
} > } > } reliable to use? I have access to JAWS, NVDA or Voiceover as needed but I
} > } > } haven't done terminal work since my blindness hit.
} > } > }
} > } > } Best regards,
} > } > }
} > } > } Ryan Boudwin
} > } > } ryanboudwin at gmail.com
} > } > } _______________________________________________
} > } > } NFBCS mailing list
} > } > } NFBCS at nfbnet.org
} > } > } http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
} > } > } To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
} > } > NFBCS:
} > } > }
} > } > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/buhrow%40lothlorien.nfbcal.org
} > } > >-- End of excerpt from Ryan Boudwin via NFBCS
} > } >
} > } >
} > } >
} > } 
} > } --0000000000004f88fa05ac4e27bb
} > } Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
} > } Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
} > } 
} > } <div dir=3D"ltr">I'd also need to be able to use web applications and c=
} > } opy and paste terminal output into JIRA; I'm concerned with how well th=
} > } at would work on a linux-only box. I haven't used a linux screen reader=
} > }  before but I have heard it's not the best experience.<div><br></div><d=
} > } iv><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_=
} > } signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Best regards,<div><br></div><div>Ryan Boudwin</=
} > } div><div><a href=3D"mailto:ryanboudwin at gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ryanbou=
} > } dwin at gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><b=
} > } r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, =
} > } Aug 7, 2020 at 12:40 PM Brian Buhrow <<a href=3D"mailto:buhrow at nfbcal.or=
} > } g">buhrow at nfbcal.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
} > } te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
} > } );padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hello.=C2=A0 As a long time=
} > }  Unix person who uses terminals over ssh on a<br>
} > } daily basis with screen readers, I strongly recommend you build yourself a<=
} > } br>
} > } Linux box and ssh to your remote sites from there.=C2=A0 Then, you can eith=
} > } er<br>
} > } use Speakup or Yasr as your screen reader.=C2=A0 I use Yasr with the eflite=
} > } /flite<br>
} > } software speech engine.=C2=A0 This combination of software will give you fu=
} > } ll<br>
} > } access to screen oriented programs in terminal environments.=C2=A0 While I =
} > } think<br>
} > } things are changing a bit, terminal access using Jaws, NVDA or VoiceOver<br=
} > } >
} > } is, in my experience, doable, but very very suboptimal.=C2=A0 As proof of t=
} > } hat,<br>
} > } you'll=C2=A0 probably get a number of folks writing back on this questi=
} > } on<br>
} > } suggesting that terminal access works fine using the Windows screen<br>
} > } readers, but that you'll find it easier to edit files on the local Wind=
} > } ows<br>
} > } machine and then transfer them up using scp or some other file transfer<br>
} > } protocol once you're done.=C2=A0 that is a very inefficient way to edit=
} > }  files on<br>
} > } remote servers.=C2=A0 The combination of software I suggest lets me edit fi=
} > } les<br>
} > } with ease in their native environments on the servers on which they belong.=
} > } <br>
} > } <br>
} > } Hope this helps.<br>
} > } -Brian<br>
} > } <br>
} > } On Aug 7, 11:59am, Ryan Boudwin via NFBCS wrote:<br>
} > } } Subject: [NFBCS] best solution for remote linux terminal work<br>
} > } } Hey folks,<br>
} > } } <br>
} > } } I am considering a return to a technical individual contributor role. The=
} > } <br>
} > } } job requires a significant amount of terminal work, over SSH to remote<br=
} > } >
} > } } linux servers.<br>
} > } } <br>
} > } } What OS/screen reader/ssh client combination is the best/easiest/most<br>
} > } } reliable to use? I have access to JAWS, NVDA or Voiceover as needed but I=
} > } <br>
} > } } haven't done terminal work since my blindness hit.<br>
} > } } <br>
} > } } Best regards,<br>
} > } } <br>
} > } } Ryan Boudwin<br>
} > } } <a href=3D"mailto:ryanboudwin at gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ryanboudwin at gm=
} > } ail.com</a><br>
} > } } _______________________________________________<br>
} > } } NFBCS mailing list<br>
} > } } <a href=3D"mailto:NFBCS at nfbnet.org" target=3D"_blank">NFBCS at nfbnet.org</a=
} > } ><br>
} > } } <a href=3D"http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org" rel=3D"no=
} > } referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet=
} > } .org</a><br>
} > } } To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFB=
} > } CS:<br>
} > } } <a href=3D"http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/buhrow%40lo=
} > } thlorien.nfbcal.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://nfbnet.org=
} > } /mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/buhrow%40lothlorien.nfbcal.org</a><br>
} > } >-- End of excerpt from Ryan Boudwin via NFBCS<br>
} > } <br>
} > } <br>
} > } </blockquote></div>
} > } 
} > } --0000000000004f88fa05ac4e27bb--
} > >-- End of excerpt from Ryan Boudwin
} > 
} > 
} > 
} > _______________________________________________
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} > NFBCS at nfbnet.org
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} > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:
} > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ccn%40chrisnestrud.com
} 
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>-- End of excerpt from Chris Nestrud via NFBCS