[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers

Wed Feb 26 23:44:44 UTC 2020

When you get right down to it, the blind do often need to work twice as 
hard just to get anywhere but that is a whole other topic.

On 2/26/2020 6:28 PM, Bryan Schulz via NFBCS wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I suggested the issue with certiport testing after noticing another man had the same issue in Kansas or Kansas city.
> I was left to think the two suggestions weren't cared about when there was zero response.
> I don't see a speaker at the annual meeting saying 'you just have to work harder than the sighted guy' as much of a solution!
> Please don't  mistake the lack of solutions offered or not attending the annual meeting as not willing to help.
> Bryan Schulz
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via NFBCS
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 9:44 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>
> It is my hope that I can provide some useful perspective on this.  However, I am counting on other officers and board members of NFBCS to chime in.  It is encouraging to see some people with interest in pursuing some of these things.
>
> Many officers and board members of NFBCS regularly contribute to this list.  Most of us do so as individuals, though, not because of holding a position within NFBCS.  Our president is Brian Buhrow buhrow at nfbcal.org and I currently am the vice-president.  Louis Maher is the secretary and Curtis Chong is the treasurer.  In addition, there are several board members.  Elections are held every two years.
>
> The NFB in Computer Science is an old division of the National Federation of the Blind.  As many of you know, divisions are not separate organizations but rather groups that pull together members having a common interest.  When this division started in the early 1970's, our common interest was being employed as computer programmers.  My first NFBCS meeting was in 1974, and I know that there were meetings before then.  Perhaps for the next twenty years or so, it was common for NFBCS to be the place where all computer questions were addressed, even those that were not directly related to programming.  Our primary focus was to try to bring about change by bringing speakers from companies that impacted us to our meetings at the national convention where people could ask questions and speakers could see how blind people were impacted by their products.  This sometimes brought about follow-up activities during the following year.  This list was originally an initiative of NFBCS which is why it is named as it is.
>
> A number of NFBCS members attended a large gathering that became known as the Microsoft Summit in 1995 during which plans for what became MSAA and other accessibility efforts were explained.  To some degree, that marked a change in the role of NFBCS and computers in our lives, although the process was more gradual.  Use of computers went way beyond programming, and over time, dialogs with large corporations has shifted to the mainstream, meaning in our case, our national organization rather than NFBCS.  In addition, it is more and more the case that accessibility issues start out as legal compliance issues meaning that they don't start out as a friendly discussion between blind programmers and company developers.  In fact, companies tend to isolate their developers and priorities are set by management rather than by a project lead.  It is often more and more common that companies contract to have their software written and end contracts once it is stable resulting in there being virtually no on-going development staff.  Having been personally involved in trying to resolve some accessibility issues, it is a rare case when a few blind people can sit down with software developers and use a fast-track approach to resolving problems.  I'm not saying this can never happen, but it is going to be very rare nowadays.
>
> I did not check the archives, but I believe we have at least posted the agenda for our annual meetings on this list for the past few years.  I believe there were also announcements here last spring describing how one could pay dues and register as NFBCS members on-line.  Traditionally, those who pay membership dues of $5 per year can receive a recording of our meetings and occasional other communications.  As Lloyd said, perhaps a hundred people attend that meeting now, but in the past, several hundred people attended.  This number as decreased partly due to greater competition for time and more options.  Still, there has continued to be useful dialog with certain companies such as Microsoft and Google, and we have heard from people who have had somewhat non-traditional jobs in Information technology.  However, we do not have a large budget nor is there staff.  While it is not true that NFBCS is only this list, it is accurate that we don't have the resources as a division to take on additional projects that may well be deserving of attention.  It is unfair for Brian Schultz to say we were not interested in the problem he brought forward regarding inaccessible courses, but he is right that we didn't have resources to change the state of things there.  Some of our national leaders also monitor this list and issues such as Brian raised at least raise the awareness that there are problems that need addressing.  Frankly, though, while many things were better for us than ever before, there are a lot of problem areas that need to be addressed.  Some problems need to be addressed at a higher level because fixing them individually is just not likely to happen.  Still, I think there is room to look at other approaches to resolving problems in some cases.
>
> Particularly if somebody is interested in giving some time to this effort, they should contact us.  Those who plan to be at the NFB Convention in Houston, Texas, should try to attend the NFBCS meeting, probably on July 16.  Certainly suggestions made here are going to be seen by all of our officers and board members and many of our long-time members as well.  Some of what has been proposed on this list may better be addressed by the national Federation of the Blind in general and not just by NFBCS.  We also try to avoid duplicating what may be offered elsewhere due to resources.  I am counting on my fellow officers, particularly Brian Buhrow, to correct anything I have written that is inaccurate.  I'm expressing my interpretation of events and not an official position of NFBCS.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via NFBCS
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 5:06 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>
> To be clear, I did not mean to imply that the NFBCS was nothing more than an email list. I genuinely did not know that it was a group within the NFB with a President and everything. I have to say though, I've been on this list for about 25 years and I do not recall ever seeing a message on this list from the NFBCS itself. I mean I do not recall ever seeing a message from one of it's officers saying, "Hi, I'm one of the officers of the NFBCS and this is what we are working on this year."
>
> I would hope the officers of the NFBCS would be thrilled to see this spontaneous outpouring of enthusiasm. But it would be fair for them to say "When you say we should do this or that, you mean you're willing to lead that team, right?" Most of the time when people say we should do this or we should do that, they mean somebody else should do it.
>
> But I have all kinds of ideas. Googling the NFBCS gives you nothing. It needs a web site. Does the NFB have a Zoom account? If so, we should set up some webinars. I'd be willing to do one on training yourself to be a Linux systems administrator. We could do one on VMware. Using an IDE.
>
> I do not feel it is my place to tell the officers of the NFBCS how to deal with reports of accessibility problems. I would just point out that someone representing the National Federation of the Blind could probably call a company and set up a teleconference meeting between developers and  blind end users. I mean, if someone from the NFB called up a company and said, "We would like to have your developers talk to some blind users of your products," the company would probably listen.
>
> On 2/25/20 4:28 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>> How shall we mobilize?
>>
>>
>> On 2/25/2020 5:06 PM, Bryan Schulz via NFBCS wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I offered the suggestion that it would be nice if the cs division
>>> could address/fix the problem of Microsoft exams through certiport
>>> and a cisco networking program called packet tracer not being
>>> accessible and there was NO interest!
>>> So yes, I agree the group isn't much more than an email list!
>>> Bryan
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Rasmussen, Lloyd
>>> via NFBCS
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 2:54 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Rasmussen, Lloyd <lras at loc.gov>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>
>>> Speaking as a former board member:
>>> The NFB in Computer Science is a division of the national
>>> organization. When it was formed, probably in 1976, its primary
>>> emphasis and membership was for programmers of all types. As the
>>> years went by, more and more non-programmers needed to use computers,
>>> and the focus drifted somewhat away from programming and toward user
>>> interface problems.
>>> The NFBCS has one meeting per year, as part of the NFB national
>>> convention.
>>> About a hundred people show up.
>>> Curtis Willoughby was president of NFBCS for many years. In more
>>> recent years, Curtis Chong was the president. The president now is
>>> Jim Barbour, who sometimes posts to this listserv.
>>> The NFBCS listserv is a primary communication vehicle between
>>> conventions.
>>> Programming and access to programming tools continues to be a major
>>> emphasis at NFBCS meetings, and the officers are always looking for
>>> suggestions.
>>> I hope this clarifies things even a little.
>>>
>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer National Library Service for
>>> the Blind and Print Disabled Library of Congress, Washington, DC
>>> 20542
>>> 202-707-0535
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnls
>>> .loc.gov&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc9dd5bb864864939390f08d7ba4770ba%7C84d
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>>> wnGqKg8LQyZmykmomX7%2BVGIm3bkLCWBpeHnQL5rOzKA%3D&reserved=0
>>> The preceding opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the
>>> Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via
>>> NFBCS
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 3:35 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>
>>> I don't know what the NFBCS is other than an email list.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/25/20 12:16 PM, Peter Donahue via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>>      Isn't this supposed to be something the NFB in Computer Science
>>>> is addressing?
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>> via NFBCS
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:08 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>
>>>> Jack, I agree with everything you said.  I'm willing to help as best
>>>> I
>>> can.
>>>> I should have more time soon, as I get backwatered.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I think if the NFB got behind a group for blind IT
>>>>> professionals, we might be able to do some good. As I said, I tried
>>>>> to get something like that started independently but it fizzled out.
>>>>> Here is a list of the goals of that organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Communicate with hardware & software manufacturers about
>>>>> accessibility problems. If their new router software has
>>>>> accessibility issues, does Cisco even know it? Lets make sure they do.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Help current IT professionals avoid being "backwatered". (I
>>>>> personally coined that phrase). Getting backwatered is my term for
>>>>> being stuck in a job dealing with obsolete technology because its
>>>>> what has always been accessible -- until its not. Your skills get
>>>>> narrower and narrower. You don't get to play with the new stuff
>>>>> because its not accessible.  These are huge problems in a very
>>> competitive job market.
>>>>> 3. Provide a place for IT professionals to exchange knowledge of
>>>>> how to deal with accessibility issues. All of us know tricks to get
>>>>> around accessibility problems. I am sure that by now, many blind IT
>>>>> professionals have missed out on an opportunity when there was a
>>>>> workaround they didn't even know about.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Encourage young people to consider information technology and
>>>>> comp sci as a career. With the right education and tools, a person
>>>>> can earn a place in one of the most sought after and highly paid
>>>>> professions available to a blind person. Not to diss musician or
>>>>> massage therapist but IT pays better and there are more jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/25/20 9:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>> When I was complaining about 32    70 accessibility a couple weeks
>>>>>> ago, some people seemed to say that it was because 3270 emulation
>>>>>> is old and not used so much anymore.  I see that.  I know I'm a
>>>>>> bit of a dinosaur.
>>>>>> But this morning, I thought I saw an opportunity to start moving
>>>>>> out of the old legacy system and into another system supported by
>>>>>> my group.  I asked my boss about the possibilities, and he said
>>>>>> that that would be fine, except that system has a lot of
>>>>>> Citrix-hosted applications, and we know making Jaws and Citrix
>>>>>> play together is a real
>>>> pain.
>>>>>> Citrix is common as dirt.  I think my whole IT department uses it
>>>>>> a lot, but not me.  I know how to get Jaws to work with it, but it
>>>>>> takes quite a bit of coordination, and, if that coordination is
>>>>>> with outside vendors, it's even more complicated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Jack is right.  We of NFBCS should be working on
>>>>>> accessibility for programmers.  I don't know what that would
>>>>>> entail, but I think we need to do it, or we'll have more and more problems.
>>>>>> The things we need access to are a lot more complicated than
>>>>>> Granny getting her email.
>>>>>> Now, please, tell me I'm all wet, and there are simple solutions
>>>>>> to my problems.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>
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