[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
Christopher Chaltain
chaltain at gmail.com
Sun Mar 1 07:39:57 UTC 2020
Have you ever been responsible for a wiki page or owned a Sharepoint
site or even just owned a file share? Without an owner and a plan to
keep the information on a wiki page updated, over time, you end up just
distributing dated information. I'm a big advocate of using such tools
to share information, but only if there's a plan to curate the
information and keep it fresh and organized. This takes committed
volunteer members and not just people who expect everyone else to act on
their suggestions.
On 2/29/20 9:09 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
> What difference does it make? Look, we were talking about how cool it
> would be if the NFB had a group to advocate for blind IT professionals
> for about a week before somebody finally said the NFBCS is supposed to
> be just that. I did not start this thread, I'm not the only one who
> didn't even realise that. You google NFBCS, you basically come up
> empty. What is the signature accomplishment of the NFBCS over the
> past few years? Allowing people to pay $5 for the privilege of
> downloading audio of their meetings. The NFBCS has no social media
> presence, no podcast, no web site, no goals, no mission statement. The
> wiki is just one point in a slew of points.
>
>
> PS: Technically, the person who responded with an alternative to my
> idea for a wiki said he didn't think we needed a wikipedia. I mean
> seriously, think of all the wikis in this world. Would anybody
> actually say an email archive is the same thing? I cannot believe that
> on a list full of IT people, I even have to make that case.
>
>
> On 2/29/20 2:48 PM, Doug Lee via NFBCS wrote:
>> To your assertion that none of your ideas will happen:
>>
>> You want a voice, as one often wants in a democracy. The thing about
>> democracy is that everyone can have a voice, but not everyone can
>> have agreement, and especially not overnight. You presented a Wiki
>> idea. Another person
>> responded with an alternative that requires less work while
>> potentially providing effective connection between those with
>> questions and written existing answers, which was the point of the
>> Wiki idea in the first place.
>> This is a discussion, and I hope the best idea comes out of it as
>> worth pursuit. "Best," in a democracy, is up to members of that
>> democracy, here as anywhere else I'd say.
>>
>> As to the business of convention attendance requirement:
>>
>> If you want to vote in just about any organization, you must first
>> become a member. That kind of "say" does require membership here just
>> as other places.
>>
>> If you want to vote specifically on NFBCS business transactions, such
>> as the election of Division officers, that occurs at the annual
>> business meeting, which is at the annual NFB Convention. I believe
>> that kind of "say" is
>> the only one that has been discussed as requiring physical Convention
>> attendance.
>>
>> But I believe it is clear that just about anyone who wants to speak
>> to Division members and officers can do so on this list.
>>
>> The rest of my message will address your claim that you can prove
>> something was said.
>>
>> You said:
>>> ... can you understand that it is not
>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I have to
>>> attend the convention to have a voice?
>> Kevin replied:
>>> I don't think anybody said that if you don't attend convention you
>>> have no say.
>> To which you returned:
>>> He did say it. And I can prove it.
>> I believe you have been referring to this, from our Division
>> President Brian's message:
>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>> preclude
>>>>> us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our official
>>>>> business meeting is at the NFB national convention.
>> And perhaps this, from farther down in the same message:
>>>>> If you attend our business meeting, it gives you the right to vote.
>> Brian was discussing the right to vote in the Division, which works
>> like this, again here as elsewhere:
>> * You become a member to acquire the right to vote.
>> * You attend the appropriate meetings where voting occurs so you can
>> exercise that right.
>>
>> Brian did go on to say that other meetings may in the future occur
>> besides the ones at conventions. But in no way was Brian telling you
>> that you cannot be heard without showing up in person at a
>> convention. I submit that
>> this current discussion is proof enough of that one.
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 01:24:32PM -0600, NFBCS mailing list wrote:
>> He did say it. And I can prove it. Nothing we have discussed is going to
>> happen. There will be no wiki, no podcast, no social media, no
>> advocacy on
>> accessible apps. None of that is going to happen.
>>
>>
>> I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong. But I am not wrong.
>>
>>
>> On 2/29/20 1:13 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>> I don't think anybody said that if you don't attend convention you
>>> have no
>>> say.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/29/2020 2:06 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> Brian, you missed the point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The people on this list have been expressing some real needs and it
>>>> just so happens that the NFBCS is uniquely situated to do something
>>>> about them. There is an opportunity here. The NFBCS could be so much
>>>> more than just an email list and an annual meeting. If that is going
>>>> to happen, you have to choose to make it happen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Admittedly, that is your choice. But can you understand that it is not
>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I have to
>>>> attend the convention to have a voice? A typical person's reaction to
>>>> that is not going to be, "Well, if those are the rules, okay then."
>>>> The NFB starts every press release talking about how big and
>>>> influential it is but it makes no attempt to represent the vast
>>>> majority of blind people who never attend a convention. Ask any member
>>>> of the NFB about the ACB and they will dismiss it as meaningless and
>>>> ineffective. True enough. But to me, all that means is that the NFB
>>>> has that much more of an obligation to represent me. If the NFB isn't
>>>> going to do this -- nobody is. So when you say that I have to attend
>>>> the convention or I have no say, that is the same as telling me that
>>>> the NFB is broken.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/28/20 2:50 PM, Brian Buhrow via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> hello list members. This is Brian Buhrow, current president
>>>>> of the
>>>>> NFB in Computer Science, chiming into this topic. Although I'm
>>>>> coming into
>>>>> this discussion rather late, I have been following it and, like
>>>>> Steve, I am
>>>>> excited to see folks interested in working on some of these
>>>>> accessibility
>>>>> issues. Since a lot has been covered in this thread, I'll try to
>>>>> address
>>>>> some of the points I've seen in this discussion and, perhaps,
>>>>> clarify where
>>>>> I think we are as an NFB division and what my vision is going
>>>>> forward for
>>>>> the division. For those of you following this thread and
>>>>> contributing to
>>>>> it, if there are particular points you think I've missed in the below
>>>>> paragraphs, feel free to point them out in the discussion that's
>>>>> sure to
>>>>> follow this message.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a long time NFB member
>>>>> who has
>>>>> worked in the IT field for the past 25 years. My expertise is in
>>>>> the field
>>>>> of Unix/Linux system programming and networking, both in writing
>>>>> client
>>>>> and server software, as well as building and maintaining local and
>>>>> wide
>>>>> area IP networks. I also have a good deal of experience building and
>>>>> maintaining VOIP telephony networks and services. For purposes of
>>>>> computer
>>>>> access, I am totally blind and rely completely on braille and/or
>>>>> speech
>>>>> output to gain access to the systems I work on. Because I use a
>>>>> variety of
>>>>> equipment, I use a variety of access technologies. I'm proficient
>>>>> with
>>>>> VoiceOver for iOS, NVDA under Windows, a long time user of Jaws, and,
>>>>> thanks to Mike Gorse, another member of this list, the Yasr
>>>>> program under Unix.
>>>>> It has long been my experience that creating access solutions
>>>>> which enable
>>>>> me to do my work have required thought, creativity, a lot of trial
>>>>> and
>>>>> error, much frustration on my part, and, some assistance from my
>>>>> colleagues
>>>>> and co-workers. As someone mentioned up thread on this list, I'm
>>>>> certain
>>>>> that I've missed opportunities in my career due to lack of
>>>>> accessibility,
>>>>> or my inability to think of a viable access solution, or just an
>>>>> assumption
>>>>> on my part that I couldn't do this or that. Getting
>>>>> "backwatered" in the
>>>>> IT field is a constant problem for everyone who works in it, and
>>>>> it is a
>>>>> particular problem for blind individuals, myself included. Still,
>>>>> with
>>>>> that said, my career has been a rewarding one that has allowed me
>>>>> to enjoy
>>>>> life, participate in a variety of exciting adventures and to join the
>>>>> society of my friends and neighbors as a first class citizen. The
>>>>> NFB and,
>>>>> by extension, the NFB CS division, has been a key element of that
>>>>> success
>>>>> because they gave me access to the likes of Steve Jacobson, Curtis
>>>>> Chong,
>>>>> Curtis Willoughby, Lloyd Rasmussen, Jim Barbour and John Miller,
>>>>> not to
>>>>> mention a vast array of other mentors and friends who could not
>>>>> only teach
>>>>> me a bit about how to do what I wanted, but who lead by example by
>>>>> doing it
>>>>> themselves. I hope that overview will help inform the comments I
>>>>> have
>>>>> about particular issues in this thread that I'll mention below.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. As Steve pointed out, the NFB CS Division is made up entirely of
>>>>> volunteers. That means the things that get done in the division
>>>>> are the
>>>>> ones folks find interesting to work on and which can be scheduled in
>>>>> available time. To that end, regarding the topic of an NFB CS web
>>>>> site or
>>>>> wikipedia, I think David Andrews said it best. It's not hard to
>>>>> build a
>>>>> web site or wikipedia pages, but maintaining them and their
>>>>> relevance is
>>>>> very difficult over time. A complaint I saw in this discussion
>>>>> was that
>>>>> folks didn't know how to find the kinds of information they were
>>>>> getting
>>>>> once they asked on this list. Since this list is archived and
>>>>> since there
>>>>> is a web site where the archives are stored and accessible, it
>>>>> seems that
>>>>> maybe what we should think about doing as a division is figuring
>>>>> out how to
>>>>> funnel folks to that archive so they can find the answers folks have
>>>>> provided on this list. As an example, Nicole provided a nice
>>>>> summary of
>>>>> the solution to her 3270 emulation software problem. There is not
>>>>> a real
>>>>> need, in my mind, to complicate the process of geting the word out
>>>>> to other
>>>>> folks by asking her to write a formal wikipedia page explaining
>>>>> her fixes.
>>>>> Rather, a simple page explaining that we have this list and the
>>>>> best terms
>>>>> to type into Google to harvest what it has to offer seems like the
>>>>> quick
>>>>> and easy way to leverage this list as a valuable resource.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. As to the issue of accessible certification testing, I do see
>>>>> this as a
>>>>> barrier to job entry and, as such, I think it is something the
>>>>> division
>>>>> should try to address. I do not have the bandwidth or enough
>>>>> familiarity
>>>>> with the details of the problem to take the lead to work on this
>>>>> issue.
>>>>> However, if there are folks who are willing and able to work on
>>>>> this issue
>>>>> and to cary it forward, possibly to formal actions, I'm willing to
>>>>> facilitate that work and help bring it to fruition, either by
>>>>> advocating
>>>>> for it on the national level, or by writing letters to appropriate
>>>>> individuals or agencies, or some combination of that and other
>>>>> means. Write
>>>>> me off list if you are willing and able to work on this issue and
>>>>> we'll
>>>>> figure out what steps need to be taken to get things moving.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>> preclude
>>>>> us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our official
>>>>> business meeting is at the NFB national convention. That said,
>>>>> beginning
>>>>> last year, we began offering the ability for folks to join the
>>>>> division on-line,
>>>>> allowing them to reep the benefits of NFB-CS membership.
>>>>> Browse to:
>>>>> https://web.nfbcal.org/nfbcsreg
>>>>> to sign up as an NFB-CS member.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, membership gains you the right to receive a copy of the
>>>>> recording of the 2019 NFB-CS meeting held in Las Vegas last
>>>>> summer. In
>>>>> future, it will entitle you to access the archive of recordings
>>>>> from our
>>>>> past meetings. If you attend our business meeting, it gives you
>>>>> the right
>>>>> to vote. If you are interested in working on any of the issues I've
>>>>> outlined in this e-mail, it would be my preference, but not a
>>>>> requirement,
>>>>> that you join the NFB-CS division as part of starting inon the
>>>>> work. In
>>>>> that way, you will be more officially connected with the division
>>>>> if any
>>>>> of the work becomes formal.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. Again, as Steve pointed out, most of the NFB-CS board monitors
>>>>> and
>>>>> participates in discussion on this list. Curtis Chong, our most
>>>>> recent
>>>>> past president and current treasurer, recently posted a treatise
>>>>> on the
>>>>> virtues of upgrading Windows to Windows 10 and trying out the new
>>>>> Microsoft Edge browser. Steve Jacobson, our vice president,
>>>>> regularly
>>>>> contributes insightful comments on various ongoing discussions.
>>>>> Jeanine
>>>>> Lineback, one of our board members, posts job postings for various
>>>>> accessibility related positions. I send out meeting related
>>>>> announcements
>>>>> regularly, and also try to contribute to discussions where I think
>>>>> my input
>>>>> might be helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. In my mind, as I said earlier in this message, the real value
>>>>> to our
>>>>> division is the knowledge and experience of its members. This
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> extends that knowledge and experience further because it includes
>>>>> many
>>>>> people who have a lot of experience but who are not officially
>>>>> members of
>>>>> the Division. I know some folks would like us to cater more
>>>>> toward people
>>>>> who are working in the computer science or IT fields. I
>>>>> understand that
>>>>> and have tried to move our agendas at our annual meeting in that
>>>>> direction
>>>>> by including at least one panel or topic of interest to folks
>>>>> working in
>>>>> the computing profession. last year, for example, Tom Moore gave an
>>>>> excellent talk on how to build and maintain AWS networks and
>>>>> servers with
>>>>> nonvisual tools. However, I don't see a lot of value in splitting
>>>>> our
>>>>> resources into two lists, those discussing computer sciencey
>>>>> issues and
>>>>> those asking general accessibility questions. The truth is, access
>>>>> technology being what it is, complicated, buggy and a moving target,
>>>>> every blind computer professional I know has, at one time or
>>>>> another, been
>>>>> reduced to a neophyte user by a piece of buggy access technology,
>>>>> a buggy
>>>>> application, or just forgetting the magic sequence of commands or
>>>>> gestures
>>>>> to do a particular task with a particular ap from time to time. As
>>>>> such,
>>>>> my feeling is that we can all learn from every question that comes
>>>>> up on
>>>>> this list and for those of us who are more sophisticated, we can
>>>>> provide
>>>>> our own filtering if there are things we don't want to follow on
>>>>> this list.
>>>>> I, for example, have a very strong knowledge of Unix/Linux, systems
>>>>> programming and integration, networking and VOIP systems. However, my
>>>>> knowledge of Windows is definitely not as complete. Therefore, I
>>>>> value the
>>>>> Windows questions that come up on this list because they teach me
>>>>> things I
>>>>> didn't know.
>>>>> Also, to that end, if there are things folks want us to work on as a
>>>>> division, I'm happy to entertain a discussion and potentially
>>>>> embark on the
>>>>> work, but I need your help to do it. So, when you think about
>>>>> suggestions
>>>>> for the Division to work on, also try to think about how we might
>>>>> go about working
>>>>> on them in a sustainable manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this missive. I hope it
>>>>> helps
>>>>> clarify how I see the Division. In the mean time, let's see if we
>>>>> can move
>>>>> some of these ideas in this thread forward, shall we?
>>>>>
>>>>> -thanks
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> -Brian, President, NFB in Computer Science.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
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>>>>> for NFBCS:
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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--
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail
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