[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
Jack Heim
john at johnheim.com
Sun Mar 1 15:20:02 UTC 2020
Well, you did miss it. In fact, I volunteered an entire virtual server.
I also volunteered to register a domain name. I volunteered to do a
webinar/podcast on training yourself to be a Linux systems admin.
Look, instead of casting about for ways to trash me because you don't
like what I am saying, how about taking a step back and asking yourself
if maybe I have a point. I don't think I have contradicted myself but
what difference does it make? If you catch me in some little
contradiction, does that invalidate everything I've said?
On 3/1/20 1:44 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> On one hand you say this isn't supposed to come from the ground up and
> on the other hand you say that the NFB doesn't represent the vast
> number of blind people in the country who don't attend the national
> convention. This seems like a contradiction to me. If you don't want
> to be part of the problem then you need to be part of the solution.
> Where did I miss it, but when did you volunteer to host or contribute
> to a wiki or a social networking page?
>
>
>
> On 2/29/20 9:23 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>> First of all, the vast majority of this stuff you can't just do
>> without approval from the NFB. I can't just create a web presence for
>> the NFBCS without authority from the NFB. But more importantly, its
>> not supposed to come from the ground up. There was a spontaneous
>> outburst of enthusiasm on this list for things we could do on behalf
>> of blind IT professionals. Typically, its the other way around. Lots
>> of groups have a problem, leadership asks if anybody wants to take on
>> a responsibility and they get crickets back. The leaders of the NFB
>> do not have that excuse. Who knows, maybe after this kurfuffle, they
>> will. But, no, up to this point, they don't have a problem not
>> getting enough volunteers because they haven't asked for any.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/29/20 8:30 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>> Now, I'm gonna say something. Please stand back, I need to clear my
>>> throat. Okay, I'm ready. Saying the NFBCS isn't doing anything is
>>> foolish because, you got it, we are the NFBCS. If we want things
>>> done it is up to us, the volunteers. That is all.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/29/2020 9:22 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> No, I have not missed the point. After all, I think we can all
>>>> agree that the point is that blind IT professionals have needs?
>>>> There is the problem of getting backwatered, lack of documentation
>>>> on accessibility tricks, little to no advocacy on behalf of blind
>>>> IT professionals. The NFBCS doesn't even have a web site. You
>>>> google NFBCS and you pretty much come up empty. These are problems.
>>>> Did anything in Brian's response indicate that the NFBCS was about
>>>> to take on those issues? I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The best proof of any theory is its power of prediction. Einstein
>>>> predicted that the sun's rays would be bent by the moon's
>>>> gravitational pull during an eclipse. When that prediction was
>>>> borne out, it was considered proof of Einsteinn's theory. Well, I
>>>> made a prediction. I am willing to wait.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/29/20 2:49 PM, cathy at sks.com wrote:
>>>>> I am not trying to be contentious, but I think you, Jack, have
>>>>> missed the
>>>>> point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Completely read Brian's e-mail. He states in there that you can
>>>>> now pay your
>>>>> dues online and do not need to attend the convention to be a member.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian reaches out in his e-mail to all of us to let him know if we
>>>>> are
>>>>> interested in helping take action on any of the items discussed on
>>>>> this
>>>>> list.
>>>>>
>>>>> We in the NFB, are all volunteers with other things going on in
>>>>> our lives.
>>>>> The Division will not get anything accomplished if members don't
>>>>> volunteer
>>>>> to help. Brian, as our president, needs all of our help to make
>>>>> things
>>>>> happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> The main point of his e-mail is that he wants to make things
>>>>> happen but
>>>>> wants to find out if there are others that want to volunteer to
>>>>> help. If
>>>>> nobody volunteers, then probably nothing will happen. It is in the
>>>>> hands of
>>>>> the members to step up to the plate and help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cathy Schroeder
>>>>> E-mail: cathy at sks.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via
>>>>> NFBCS
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 2:07 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>; Steve Jacobson
>>>>> <steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian, you missed the point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The people on this list have been expressing some real needs and
>>>>> it just so
>>>>> happens that the NFBCS is uniquely situated to do something about
>>>>> them.
>>>>> There is an opportunity here. The NFBCS could be so much more than
>>>>> just an
>>>>> email list and an annual meeting. If that is going to happen, you
>>>>> have to
>>>>> choose to make it happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Admittedly, that is your choice. But can you understand that it is
>>>>> not
>>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I have
>>>>> to attend
>>>>> the convention to have a voice? A typical person's reaction to
>>>>> that is not
>>>>> going to be, "Well, if those are the rules, okay then." The NFB
>>>>> starts every
>>>>> press release talking about how big and influential it is but it
>>>>> makes no
>>>>> attempt to represent the vast majority of blind people who never
>>>>> attend a
>>>>> convention. Ask any member of the NFB about the ACB and they will
>>>>> dismiss it
>>>>> as meaningless and ineffective. True enough. But to me, all that
>>>>> means is
>>>>> that the NFB has that much more of an obligation to represent me.
>>>>> If the NFB
>>>>> isn't going to do this -- nobody is. So when you say that I have
>>>>> to attend
>>>>> the convention or I have no say, that is the same as telling me
>>>>> that the NFB
>>>>> is broken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/28/20 2:50 PM, Brian Buhrow via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>> hello list members. This is Brian Buhrow, current president
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> NFB in Computer Science, chiming into this topic. Although I'm
>>>>>> coming
>>>>>> into this discussion rather late, I have been following it and, like
>>>>>> Steve, I am excited to see folks interested in working on some of
>>>>>> these accessibility issues. Since a lot has been covered in this
>>>>>> thread, I'll try to address some of the points I've seen in this
>>>>>> discussion and, perhaps, clarify where I think we are as an NFB
>>>>>> division and what my vision is going forward for the division. For
>>>>>> those of you following this thread and contributing to it, if there
>>>>>> are particular points you think I've missed in the below paragraphs,
>>>>>> feel free to point them out in the discussion that's sure to
>>>>>> follow this
>>>>> message.
>>>>>> 1. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a long time NFB
>>>>>> member who
>>>>>> has worked in the IT field for the past 25 years. My expertise
>>>>>> is in
>>>>>> the field of Unix/Linux system programming and networking, both in
>>>>>> writing client and server software, as well as building and
>>>>>> maintaining local and wide area IP networks. I also have a good
>>>>>> deal
>>>>>> of experience building and maintaining VOIP telephony networks and
>>>>>> services. For purposes of computer access, I am totally blind and
>>>>>> rely completely on braille and/or speech output to gain access to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> systems I work on. Because I use a variety of equipment, I use a
>>>>>> variety of access technologies. I'm proficient with VoiceOver for
>>>>>> iOS, NVDA under Windows, a long time user of Jaws, and, thanks to
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>> Gorse, another member of this list, the Yasr program under Unix.
>>>>>> It has long been my experience that creating access solutions which
>>>>>> enable me to do my work have required thought, creativity, a lot of
>>>>>> trial and error, much frustration on my part, and, some assistance
>>>>>> from my colleagues and co-workers. As someone mentioned up
>>>>>> thread on
>>>>>> this list, I'm certain that I've missed opportunities in my
>>>>>> career due
>>>>>> to lack of accessibility, or my inability to think of a viable
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> solution, or just an assumption on my part that I couldn't do
>>>>>> this or
>>>>>> that. Getting "backwatered" in the IT field is a constant
>>>>>> problem for
>>>>>> everyone who works in it, and it is a particular problem for blind
>>>>>> individuals, myself included. Still, with that said, my career has
>>>>>> been a rewarding one that has allowed me to enjoy life,
>>>>>> participate in
>>>>>> a variety of exciting adventures and to join the society of my
>>>>>> friends
>>>>>> and neighbors as a first class citizen. The NFB and, by extension,
>>>>>> the NFB CS division, has been a key element of that success because
>>>>>> they gave me access to the likes of Steve Jacobson, Curtis Chong,
>>>>>> Curtis Willoughby, Lloyd Rasmussen, Jim Barbour and John Miller, not
>>>>>> to mention a vast array of other mentors and friends who could not
>>>>>> only teach me a bit about how to do what I wanted, but who lead by
>>>>>> example by doing it themselves. I hope that overview will help
>>>>>> inform the
>>>>> comments I have about particular issues in this thread that I'll
>>>>> mention
>>>>> below.
>>>>>> 2. As Steve pointed out, the NFB CS Division is made up entirely of
>>>>>> volunteers. That means the things that get done in the division are
>>>>>> the ones folks find interesting to work on and which can be
>>>>>> scheduled
>>>>>> in available time. To that end, regarding the topic of an NFB CS
>>>>>> web
>>>>>> site or wikipedia, I think David Andrews said it best. It's not hard
>>>>>> to build a web site or wikipedia pages, but maintaining them and
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> relevance is very difficult over time. A complaint I saw in this
>>>>>> discussion was that folks didn't know how to find the kinds of
>>>>>> information they were getting once they asked on this list. Since
>>>>>> this list is archived and since there is a web site where the
>>>>>> archives
>>>>>> are stored and accessible, it seems that maybe what we should think
>>>>>> about doing as a division is figuring out how to funnel folks to
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> archive so they can find the answers folks have provided on this
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> As an example, Nicole provided a nice summary of the solution to her
>>>>>> 3270 emulation software problem. There is not a real need, in my
>>>>>> mind, to complicate the process of geting the word out to other
>>>>>> folks by
>>>>> asking her to write a formal wikipedia page explaining her fixes.
>>>>>> Rather, a simple page explaining that we have this list and the best
>>>>>> terms to type into Google to harvest what it has to offer seems like
>>>>>> the quick and easy way to leverage this list as a valuable resource.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. As to the issue of accessible certification testing, I do see
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> as a barrier to job entry and, as such, I think it is something the
>>>>>> division should try to address. I do not have the bandwidth or
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> familiarity with the details of the problem to take the lead to
>>>>>> work on
>>>>> this issue.
>>>>>> However, if there are folks who are willing and able to work on this
>>>>>> issue and to cary it forward, possibly to formal actions, I'm
>>>>>> willing
>>>>>> to facilitate that work and help bring it to fruition, either by
>>>>>> advocating for it on the national level, or by writing letters to
>>>>>> appropriate individuals or agencies, or some combination of that and
>>>>>> other means. Write me off list if you are willing and able to
>>>>>> work on
>>>>>> this issue and we'll figure out what steps need to be taken to
>>>>>> get things
>>>>> moving.
>>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>>> preclude us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our
>>>>>> official business meeting is at the NFB national convention. That
>>>>>> said, beginning last year, we began offering the ability for
>>>>>> folks to
>>>>>> join the division on-line, allowing them to reep the benefits of
>>>>>> NFB-CS
>>>>> membership.
>>>>>> Browse to:
>>>>>> https://web.nfbcal.org/nfbcsreg
>>>>>> to sign up as an NFB-CS member.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today, membership gains you the right to receive a copy of the
>>>>>> recording of the 2019 NFB-CS meeting held in Las Vegas last summer.
>>>>>> In future, it will entitle you to access the archive of recordings
>>>>>> from our past meetings. If you attend our business meeting, it
>>>>>> gives
>>>>>> you the right to vote. If you are interested in working on any
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> issues I've outlined in this e-mail, it would be my preference, but
>>>>>> not a requirement, that you join the NFB-CS division as part of
>>>>>> starting inon the work. In that way, you will be more officially
>>>>>> connected with the division if any of the work becomes formal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. Again, as Steve pointed out, most of the NFB-CS board
>>>>>> monitors and
>>>>>> participates in discussion on this list. Curtis Chong, our most
>>>>>> recent past president and current treasurer, recently posted a
>>>>>> treatise on the virtues of upgrading Windows to Windows 10 and
>>>>>> trying
>>>>>> out the new Microsoft Edge browser. Steve Jacobson, our vice
>>>>>> president, regularly contributes insightful comments on various
>>>>>> ongoing discussions. Jeanine Lineback, one of our board members,
>>>>>> posts job postings for various accessibility related positions. I
>>>>>> send out meeting related announcements regularly, and also try to
>>>>>> contribute to discussions where I think my input might be helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. In my mind, as I said earlier in this message, the real value to
>>>>>> our division is the knowledge and experience of its members. This
>>>>>> mailing list extends that knowledge and experience further
>>>>>> because it
>>>>>> includes many people who have a lot of experience but who are not
>>>>>> officially members of the Division. I know some folks would like us
>>>>>> to cater more toward people who are working in the computer
>>>>>> science or
>>>>>> IT fields. I understand that and have tried to move our agendas at
>>>>>> our annual meeting in that direction by including at least one panel
>>>>>> or topic of interest to folks working in the computing profession.
>>>>>> last year, for example, Tom Moore gave an excellent talk on how to
>>>>>> build and maintain AWS networks and servers with nonvisual tools.
>>>>>> However, I don't see a lot of value in splitting our resources into
>>>>>> two lists, those discussing computer sciencey issues and those
>>>>>> asking
>>>>>> general accessibility questions. The truth is, access technology
>>>>>> being what it is, complicated, buggy and a moving target, every
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> computer professional I know has, at one time or another, been
>>>>>> reduced
>>>>>> to a neophyte user by a piece of buggy access technology, a buggy
>>>>>> application, or just forgetting the magic sequence of commands or
>>>>>> gestures to do a particular task with a particular ap from time to
>>>>>> time. As such, my feeling is that we can all learn from every
>>>>>> question that comes up on this list and for those of us who are more
>>>>> sophisticated, we can provide our own filtering if there are
>>>>> things we don't
>>>>> want to follow on this list.
>>>>>> I, for example, have a very strong knowledge of Unix/Linux, systems
>>>>>> programming and integration, networking and VOIP systems.
>>>>>> However, my
>>>>>> knowledge of Windows is definitely not as complete. Therefore, I
>>>>>> value the Windows questions that come up on this list because they
>>>>>> teach me things I didn't know.
>>>>>> Also, to that end, if there are things folks want us to work on as a
>>>>>> division, I'm happy to entertain a discussion and potentially embark
>>>>>> on the work, but I need your help to do it. So, when you think
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> suggestions for the Division to work on, also try to think about how
>>>>>> we might go about working on them in a sustainable manner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this missive. I hope it
>>>>>> helps
>>>>>> clarify how I see the Division. In the mean time, let's see if
>>>>>> we can
>>>>>> move some of these ideas in this thread forward, shall we?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Brian, President, NFB in Computer Science.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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