[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
Christopher Chaltain
chaltain at gmail.com
Sun Mar 1 16:28:45 UTC 2020
Wow, this isn't waht I'm saying at all. I'm just saying we need to stop
and think and put a plan in place first. I don't see anything wrong with
taking advice from those of us who've supported wiki's and Sharepoint
sites and even just file shares. Why ignore the advice of people who've
been there before? Why set us up to fail when it can be avoided?
On 3/1/20 9:30 AM, Jack Heim wrote:
> If a genie popped up in front of me today and said I could have three
> wishes, one of them would be for the NFB to stop using the fact that
> we might fail as an excuse for not trying.
>
>
> What you are saying is that we can't do this. You are saying the NFBCS
> is incapable of generating the kind of enthusiasm it takes to manage a
> wiki. Other groups have done it but not the NFBCS. I don't think the
> fact that we might fail is a reason not to try.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/1/20 1:39 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>> Have you ever been responsible for a wiki page or owned a Sharepoint
>> site or even just owned a file share? Without an owner and a plan to
>> keep the information on a wiki page updated, over time, you end up
>> just distributing dated information. I'm a big advocate of using such
>> tools to share information, but only if there's a plan to curate the
>> information and keep it fresh and organized. This takes committed
>> volunteer members and not just people who expect everyone else to act
>> on their suggestions.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/29/20 9:09 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>> What difference does it make? Look, we were talking about how cool
>>> it would be if the NFB had a group to advocate for blind IT
>>> professionals for about a week before somebody finally said the
>>> NFBCS is supposed to be just that. I did not start this thread, I'm
>>> not the only one who didn't even realise that. You google NFBCS, you
>>> basically come up empty. What is the signature accomplishment of
>>> the NFBCS over the past few years? Allowing people to pay $5 for the
>>> privilege of downloading audio of their meetings. The NFBCS has no
>>> social media presence, no podcast, no web site, no goals, no mission
>>> statement. The wiki is just one point in a slew of points.
>>>
>>>
>>> PS: Technically, the person who responded with an alternative to my
>>> idea for a wiki said he didn't think we needed a wikipedia. I mean
>>> seriously, think of all the wikis in this world. Would anybody
>>> actually say an email archive is the same thing? I cannot believe
>>> that on a list full of IT people, I even have to make that case.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/29/20 2:48 PM, Doug Lee via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> To your assertion that none of your ideas will happen:
>>>>
>>>> You want a voice, as one often wants in a democracy. The thing
>>>> about democracy is that everyone can have a voice, but not everyone
>>>> can have agreement, and especially not overnight. You presented a
>>>> Wiki idea. Another person
>>>> responded with an alternative that requires less work while
>>>> potentially providing effective connection between those with
>>>> questions and written existing answers, which was the point of the
>>>> Wiki idea in the first place.
>>>> This is a discussion, and I hope the best idea comes out of it as
>>>> worth pursuit. "Best," in a democracy, is up to members of that
>>>> democracy, here as anywhere else I'd say.
>>>>
>>>> As to the business of convention attendance requirement:
>>>>
>>>> If you want to vote in just about any organization, you must first
>>>> become a member. That kind of "say" does require membership here
>>>> just as other places.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to vote specifically on NFBCS business transactions,
>>>> such as the election of Division officers, that occurs at the
>>>> annual business meeting, which is at the annual NFB Convention. I
>>>> believe that kind of "say" is
>>>> the only one that has been discussed as requiring physical
>>>> Convention attendance.
>>>>
>>>> But I believe it is clear that just about anyone who wants to speak
>>>> to Division members and officers can do so on this list.
>>>>
>>>> The rest of my message will address your claim that you can prove
>>>> something was said.
>>>>
>>>> You said:
>>>>> ... can you understand that it is not
>>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I have to
>>>>> attend the convention to have a voice?
>>>> Kevin replied:
>>>>> I don't think anybody said that if you don't attend convention you
>>>>> have no say.
>>>> To which you returned:
>>>>> He did say it. And I can prove it.
>>>> I believe you have been referring to this, from our Division
>>>> President Brian's message:
>>>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>>>> preclude
>>>>>>> us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our
>>>>>>> official
>>>>>>> business meeting is at the NFB national convention.
>>>> And perhaps this, from farther down in the same message:
>>>>>>> If you attend our business meeting, it gives you the right to vote.
>>>> Brian was discussing the right to vote in the Division, which works
>>>> like this, again here as elsewhere:
>>>> * You become a member to acquire the right to vote.
>>>> * You attend the appropriate meetings where voting occurs so you
>>>> can exercise that right.
>>>>
>>>> Brian did go on to say that other meetings may in the future occur
>>>> besides the ones at conventions. But in no way was Brian telling
>>>> you that you cannot be heard without showing up in person at a
>>>> convention. I submit that
>>>> this current discussion is proof enough of that one.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 01:24:32PM -0600, NFBCS mailing list wrote:
>>>> He did say it. And I can prove it. Nothing we have discussed is
>>>> going to
>>>> happen. There will be no wiki, no podcast, no social media, no
>>>> advocacy on
>>>> accessible apps. None of that is going to happen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong. But I am not wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/29/20 1:13 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> I don't think anybody said that if you don't attend convention you
>>>>> have no
>>>>> say.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/29/2020 2:06 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>> Brian, you missed the point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The people on this list have been expressing some real needs and it
>>>>>> just so happens that the NFBCS is uniquely situated to do something
>>>>>> about them. There is an opportunity here. The NFBCS could be so much
>>>>>> more than just an email list and an annual meeting. If that is going
>>>>>> to happen, you have to choose to make it happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Admittedly, that is your choice. But can you understand that it
>>>>>> is not
>>>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I have to
>>>>>> attend the convention to have a voice? A typical person's
>>>>>> reaction to
>>>>>> that is not going to be, "Well, if those are the rules, okay then."
>>>>>> The NFB starts every press release talking about how big and
>>>>>> influential it is but it makes no attempt to represent the vast
>>>>>> majority of blind people who never attend a convention. Ask any
>>>>>> member
>>>>>> of the NFB about the ACB and they will dismiss it as meaningless and
>>>>>> ineffective. True enough. But to me, all that means is that the NFB
>>>>>> has that much more of an obligation to represent me. If the NFB
>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>> going to do this -- nobody is. So when you say that I have to attend
>>>>>> the convention or I have no say, that is the same as telling me that
>>>>>> the NFB is broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/28/20 2:50 PM, Brian Buhrow via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>> hello list members. This is Brian Buhrow, current
>>>>>>> president of the
>>>>>>> NFB in Computer Science, chiming into this topic. Although I'm
>>>>>>> coming into
>>>>>>> this discussion rather late, I have been following it and, like
>>>>>>> Steve, I am
>>>>>>> excited to see folks interested in working on some of these
>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>> issues. Since a lot has been covered in this thread, I'll try to
>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>> some of the points I've seen in this discussion and, perhaps,
>>>>>>> clarify where
>>>>>>> I think we are as an NFB division and what my vision is going
>>>>>>> forward for
>>>>>>> the division. For those of you following this thread and
>>>>>>> contributing to
>>>>>>> it, if there are particular points you think I've missed in the
>>>>>>> below
>>>>>>> paragraphs, feel free to point them out in the discussion that's
>>>>>>> sure to
>>>>>>> follow this message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a long time NFB member
>>>>>>> who has
>>>>>>> worked in the IT field for the past 25 years. My expertise is in
>>>>>>> the field
>>>>>>> of Unix/Linux system programming and networking, both in writing
>>>>>>> client
>>>>>>> and server software, as well as building and maintaining local
>>>>>>> and wide
>>>>>>> area IP networks. I also have a good deal of experience
>>>>>>> building and
>>>>>>> maintaining VOIP telephony networks and services. For purposes of
>>>>>>> computer
>>>>>>> access, I am totally blind and rely completely on braille and/or
>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>> output to gain access to the systems I work on. Because I use a
>>>>>>> variety of
>>>>>>> equipment, I use a variety of access technologies. I'm
>>>>>>> proficient with
>>>>>>> VoiceOver for iOS, NVDA under Windows, a long time user of Jaws,
>>>>>>> and,
>>>>>>> thanks to Mike Gorse, another member of this list, the Yasr
>>>>>>> program under Unix.
>>>>>>> It has long been my experience that creating access solutions
>>>>>>> which enable
>>>>>>> me to do my work have required thought, creativity, a lot of
>>>>>>> trial and
>>>>>>> error, much frustration on my part, and, some assistance from my
>>>>>>> colleagues
>>>>>>> and co-workers. As someone mentioned up thread on this list, I'm
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> that I've missed opportunities in my career due to lack of
>>>>>>> accessibility,
>>>>>>> or my inability to think of a viable access solution, or just an
>>>>>>> assumption
>>>>>>> on my part that I couldn't do this or that. Getting
>>>>>>> "backwatered" in the
>>>>>>> IT field is a constant problem for everyone who works in it, and
>>>>>>> it is a
>>>>>>> particular problem for blind individuals, myself included.
>>>>>>> Still, with
>>>>>>> that said, my career has been a rewarding one that has allowed me
>>>>>>> to enjoy
>>>>>>> life, participate in a variety of exciting adventures and to
>>>>>>> join the
>>>>>>> society of my friends and neighbors as a first class citizen. The
>>>>>>> NFB and,
>>>>>>> by extension, the NFB CS division, has been a key element of that
>>>>>>> success
>>>>>>> because they gave me access to the likes of Steve Jacobson, Curtis
>>>>>>> Chong,
>>>>>>> Curtis Willoughby, Lloyd Rasmussen, Jim Barbour and John Miller,
>>>>>>> not to
>>>>>>> mention a vast array of other mentors and friends who could not
>>>>>>> only teach
>>>>>>> me a bit about how to do what I wanted, but who lead by example by
>>>>>>> doing it
>>>>>>> themselves. I hope that overview will help inform the comments
>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>> about particular issues in this thread that I'll mention below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. As Steve pointed out, the NFB CS Division is made up
>>>>>>> entirely of
>>>>>>> volunteers. That means the things that get done in the division
>>>>>>> are the
>>>>>>> ones folks find interesting to work on and which can be
>>>>>>> scheduled in
>>>>>>> available time. To that end, regarding the topic of an NFB CS web
>>>>>>> site or
>>>>>>> wikipedia, I think David Andrews said it best. It's not hard to
>>>>>>> build a
>>>>>>> web site or wikipedia pages, but maintaining them and their
>>>>>>> relevance is
>>>>>>> very difficult over time. A complaint I saw in this discussion
>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>> folks didn't know how to find the kinds of information they were
>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>> once they asked on this list. Since this list is archived and
>>>>>>> since there
>>>>>>> is a web site where the archives are stored and accessible, it
>>>>>>> seems that
>>>>>>> maybe what we should think about doing as a division is figuring
>>>>>>> out how to
>>>>>>> funnel folks to that archive so they can find the answers folks
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> provided on this list. As an example, Nicole provided a nice
>>>>>>> summary of
>>>>>>> the solution to her 3270 emulation software problem. There is not
>>>>>>> a real
>>>>>>> need, in my mind, to complicate the process of geting the word out
>>>>>>> to other
>>>>>>> folks by asking her to write a formal wikipedia page explaining
>>>>>>> her fixes.
>>>>>>> Rather, a simple page explaining that we have this list and the
>>>>>>> best terms
>>>>>>> to type into Google to harvest what it has to offer seems like the
>>>>>>> quick
>>>>>>> and easy way to leverage this list as a valuable resource.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. As to the issue of accessible certification testing, I do see
>>>>>>> this as a
>>>>>>> barrier to job entry and, as such, I think it is something the
>>>>>>> division
>>>>>>> should try to address. I do not have the bandwidth or enough
>>>>>>> familiarity
>>>>>>> with the details of the problem to take the lead to work on this
>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>> However, if there are folks who are willing and able to work on
>>>>>>> this issue
>>>>>>> and to cary it forward, possibly to formal actions, I'm willing to
>>>>>>> facilitate that work and help bring it to fruition, either by
>>>>>>> advocating
>>>>>>> for it on the national level, or by writing letters to appropriate
>>>>>>> individuals or agencies, or some combination of that and other
>>>>>>> means. Write
>>>>>>> me off list if you are willing and able to work on this issue
>>>>>>> and we'll
>>>>>>> figure out what steps need to be taken to get things moving.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>>>> preclude
>>>>>>> us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our
>>>>>>> official
>>>>>>> business meeting is at the NFB national convention. That said,
>>>>>>> beginning
>>>>>>> last year, we began offering the ability for folks to join the
>>>>>>> division on-line,
>>>>>>> allowing them to reep the benefits of NFB-CS membership.
>>>>>>> Browse to:
>>>>>>> https://web.nfbcal.org/nfbcsreg
>>>>>>> to sign up as an NFB-CS member.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today, membership gains you the right to receive a copy of the
>>>>>>> recording of the 2019 NFB-CS meeting held in Las Vegas last
>>>>>>> summer. In
>>>>>>> future, it will entitle you to access the archive of recordings
>>>>>>> from our
>>>>>>> past meetings. If you attend our business meeting, it gives you
>>>>>>> the right
>>>>>>> to vote. If you are interested in working on any of the issues
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> outlined in this e-mail, it would be my preference, but not a
>>>>>>> requirement,
>>>>>>> that you join the NFB-CS division as part of starting inon the
>>>>>>> work. In
>>>>>>> that way, you will be more officially connected with the division
>>>>>>> if any
>>>>>>> of the work becomes formal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. Again, as Steve pointed out, most of the NFB-CS board
>>>>>>> monitors and
>>>>>>> participates in discussion on this list. Curtis Chong, our most
>>>>>>> recent
>>>>>>> past president and current treasurer, recently posted a treatise
>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>> virtues of upgrading Windows to Windows 10 and trying out the new
>>>>>>> Microsoft Edge browser. Steve Jacobson, our vice president,
>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>> contributes insightful comments on various ongoing discussions.
>>>>>>> Jeanine
>>>>>>> Lineback, one of our board members, posts job postings for various
>>>>>>> accessibility related positions. I send out meeting related
>>>>>>> announcements
>>>>>>> regularly, and also try to contribute to discussions where I think
>>>>>>> my input
>>>>>>> might be helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. In my mind, as I said earlier in this message, the real value
>>>>>>> to our
>>>>>>> division is the knowledge and experience of its members. This
>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>> extends that knowledge and experience further because it
>>>>>>> includes many
>>>>>>> people who have a lot of experience but who are not officially
>>>>>>> members of
>>>>>>> the Division. I know some folks would like us to cater more
>>>>>>> toward people
>>>>>>> who are working in the computer science or IT fields. I
>>>>>>> understand that
>>>>>>> and have tried to move our agendas at our annual meeting in that
>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>> by including at least one panel or topic of interest to folks
>>>>>>> working in
>>>>>>> the computing profession. last year, for example, Tom Moore
>>>>>>> gave an
>>>>>>> excellent talk on how to build and maintain AWS networks and
>>>>>>> servers with
>>>>>>> nonvisual tools. However, I don't see a lot of value in
>>>>>>> splitting our
>>>>>>> resources into two lists, those discussing computer sciencey
>>>>>>> issues and
>>>>>>> those asking general accessibility questions. The truth is, access
>>>>>>> technology being what it is, complicated, buggy and a moving
>>>>>>> target,
>>>>>>> every blind computer professional I know has, at one time or
>>>>>>> another, been
>>>>>>> reduced to a neophyte user by a piece of buggy access technology,
>>>>>>> a buggy
>>>>>>> application, or just forgetting the magic sequence of commands or
>>>>>>> gestures
>>>>>>> to do a particular task with a particular ap from time to time. As
>>>>>>> such,
>>>>>>> my feeling is that we can all learn from every question that comes
>>>>>>> up on
>>>>>>> this list and for those of us who are more sophisticated, we can
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> our own filtering if there are things we don't want to follow on
>>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>>> I, for example, have a very strong knowledge of Unix/Linux, systems
>>>>>>> programming and integration, networking and VOIP systems.
>>>>>>> However, my
>>>>>>> knowledge of Windows is definitely not as complete. Therefore, I
>>>>>>> value the
>>>>>>> Windows questions that come up on this list because they teach me
>>>>>>> things I
>>>>>>> didn't know.
>>>>>>> Also, to that end, if there are things folks want us to work on
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> division, I'm happy to entertain a discussion and potentially
>>>>>>> embark on the
>>>>>>> work, but I need your help to do it. So, when you think about
>>>>>>> suggestions
>>>>>>> for the Division to work on, also try to think about how we might
>>>>>>> go about working
>>>>>>> on them in a sustainable manner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this missive. I hope it
>>>>>>> helps
>>>>>>> clarify how I see the Division. In the mean time, let's see if we
>>>>>>> can move
>>>>>>> some of these ideas in this thread forward, shall we?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Brian, President, NFB in Computer Science.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>
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--
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail
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