[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
Christopher Chaltain
chaltain at gmail.com
Sun Mar 1 23:33:14 UTC 2020
I agree that wiki's are great. I've probably managed half a dozen in my
career. They need some care and feeding though. If a wiki isn't
maintained, and people end up on a dated and poorly maintained wiki then
IMHO it'll send the wrong message and could convey harmful or misleading
information. I was talking to someone who supported Linux and he was
complaining how many calls he gets from people who follow some
instructions they found on a dated wiki which ended up causing more harm
on their system then good.
On 3/1/20 11:47 AM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
> I maintain 2 wikis as part of my job for the Math Dept at the
> University Of Wisconsin - Madison. See http://wiki.math.wisc.edu/.
> Also https://kb.math.wisc.edu. You won't be able to get into the 2nd
> one (I hope). That requires a password.
>
>
> Your turn now.
>
>
> The wiki is one of the great innovations of the internet age. It has
> revolutionized how information is disseminated in the 21st century. We
> may fail but there is almost no downside to failure. And the upside is
> tremendous. Not only could we actually help blind IT professionals,
> every time somebody googles for info on an adaptive technique and
> comes up with a page on the NFBCS wiki, its a win for us. Think of
> what a positive message it would be if the NFBCS wiki became the go to
> place for adaptive techniques on the internet.
>
>
> Maybe we can't pull that off but fear of failure should not stop us
> from trying. There is value in showing the blind community that the
> NFBCS cares enough to at least try. Get out there and fight.
>
>
> On 3/1/20 10:28 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>> Wow, this isn't waht I'm saying at all. I'm just saying we need to
>> stop and think and put a plan in place first. I don't see anything
>> wrong with taking advice from those of us who've supported wiki's and
>> Sharepoint sites and even just file shares. Why ignore the advice of
>> people who've been there before? Why set us up to fail when it can be
>> avoided?
>>
>>
>> On 3/1/20 9:30 AM, Jack Heim wrote:
>>> If a genie popped up in front of me today and said I could have
>>> three wishes, one of them would be for the NFB to stop using the
>>> fact that we might fail as an excuse for not trying.
>>>
>>>
>>> What you are saying is that we can't do this. You are saying the
>>> NFBCS is incapable of generating the kind of enthusiasm it takes to
>>> manage a wiki. Other groups have done it but not the NFBCS. I don't
>>> think the fact that we might fail is a reason not to try.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/1/20 1:39 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>>> Have you ever been responsible for a wiki page or owned a
>>>> Sharepoint site or even just owned a file share? Without an owner
>>>> and a plan to keep the information on a wiki page updated, over
>>>> time, you end up just distributing dated information. I'm a big
>>>> advocate of using such tools to share information, but only if
>>>> there's a plan to curate the information and keep it fresh and
>>>> organized. This takes committed volunteer members and not just
>>>> people who expect everyone else to act on their suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/29/20 9:09 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> What difference does it make? Look, we were talking about how cool
>>>>> it would be if the NFB had a group to advocate for blind IT
>>>>> professionals for about a week before somebody finally said the
>>>>> NFBCS is supposed to be just that. I did not start this thread,
>>>>> I'm not the only one who didn't even realise that. You google
>>>>> NFBCS, you basically come up empty. What is the signature
>>>>> accomplishment of the NFBCS over the past few years? Allowing
>>>>> people to pay $5 for the privilege of downloading audio of their
>>>>> meetings. The NFBCS has no social media presence, no podcast, no
>>>>> web site, no goals, no mission statement. The wiki is just one
>>>>> point in a slew of points.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: Technically, the person who responded with an alternative to
>>>>> my idea for a wiki said he didn't think we needed a wikipedia. I
>>>>> mean seriously, think of all the wikis in this world. Would
>>>>> anybody actually say an email archive is the same thing? I cannot
>>>>> believe that on a list full of IT people, I even have to make that
>>>>> case.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/29/20 2:48 PM, Doug Lee via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>> To your assertion that none of your ideas will happen:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You want a voice, as one often wants in a democracy. The thing
>>>>>> about democracy is that everyone can have a voice, but not
>>>>>> everyone can have agreement, and especially not overnight. You
>>>>>> presented a Wiki idea. Another person
>>>>>> responded with an alternative that requires less work while
>>>>>> potentially providing effective connection between those with
>>>>>> questions and written existing answers, which was the point of
>>>>>> the Wiki idea in the first place.
>>>>>> This is a discussion, and I hope the best idea comes out of it as
>>>>>> worth pursuit. "Best," in a democracy, is up to members of that
>>>>>> democracy, here as anywhere else I'd say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to the business of convention attendance requirement:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to vote in just about any organization, you must
>>>>>> first become a member. That kind of "say" does require membership
>>>>>> here just as other places.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to vote specifically on NFBCS business transactions,
>>>>>> such as the election of Division officers, that occurs at the
>>>>>> annual business meeting, which is at the annual NFB Convention. I
>>>>>> believe that kind of "say" is
>>>>>> the only one that has been discussed as requiring physical
>>>>>> Convention attendance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I believe it is clear that just about anyone who wants to
>>>>>> speak to Division members and officers can do so on this list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rest of my message will address your claim that you can prove
>>>>>> something was said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You said:
>>>>>>> ... can you understand that it is not
>>>>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I
>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>> attend the convention to have a voice?
>>>>>> Kevin replied:
>>>>>>> I don't think anybody said that if you don't attend convention
>>>>>>> you have no say.
>>>>>> To which you returned:
>>>>>>> He did say it. And I can prove it.
>>>>>> I believe you have been referring to this, from our Division
>>>>>> President Brian's message:
>>>>>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>>>>>> preclude
>>>>>>>>> us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our
>>>>>>>>> official
>>>>>>>>> business meeting is at the NFB national convention.
>>>>>> And perhaps this, from farther down in the same message:
>>>>>>>>> If you attend our business meeting, it gives you the right to
>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>> Brian was discussing the right to vote in the Division, which
>>>>>> works like this, again here as elsewhere:
>>>>>> * You become a member to acquire the right to vote.
>>>>>> * You attend the appropriate meetings where voting occurs so you
>>>>>> can exercise that right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian did go on to say that other meetings may in the future
>>>>>> occur besides the ones at conventions. But in no way was Brian
>>>>>> telling you that you cannot be heard without showing up in person
>>>>>> at a convention. I submit that
>>>>>> this current discussion is proof enough of that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 01:24:32PM -0600, NFBCS mailing list wrote:
>>>>>> He did say it. And I can prove it. Nothing we have discussed is
>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> happen. There will be no wiki, no podcast, no social media, no
>>>>>> advocacy on
>>>>>> accessible apps. None of that is going to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong. But I am not wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/29/20 1:13 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't think anybody said that if you don't attend convention
>>>>>>> you have no
>>>>>>> say.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/29/2020 2:06 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>>> Brian, you missed the point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The people on this list have been expressing some real needs
>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>> just so happens that the NFBCS is uniquely situated to do
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> about them. There is an opportunity here. The NFBCS could be so
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> more than just an email list and an annual meeting. If that is
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> to happen, you have to choose to make it happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Admittedly, that is your choice. But can you understand that it
>>>>>>>> is not
>>>>>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I
>>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>>> attend the convention to have a voice? A typical person's
>>>>>>>> reaction to
>>>>>>>> that is not going to be, "Well, if those are the rules, okay
>>>>>>>> then."
>>>>>>>> The NFB starts every press release talking about how big and
>>>>>>>> influential it is but it makes no attempt to represent the vast
>>>>>>>> majority of blind people who never attend a convention. Ask any
>>>>>>>> member
>>>>>>>> of the NFB about the ACB and they will dismiss it as
>>>>>>>> meaningless and
>>>>>>>> ineffective. True enough. But to me, all that means is that the
>>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>>> has that much more of an obligation to represent me. If the NFB
>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>> going to do this -- nobody is. So when you say that I have to
>>>>>>>> attend
>>>>>>>> the convention or I have no say, that is the same as telling me
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the NFB is broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/28/20 2:50 PM, Brian Buhrow via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>>>> hello list members. This is Brian Buhrow, current
>>>>>>>>> president of the
>>>>>>>>> NFB in Computer Science, chiming into this topic. Although I'm
>>>>>>>>> coming into
>>>>>>>>> this discussion rather late, I have been following it and, like
>>>>>>>>> Steve, I am
>>>>>>>>> excited to see folks interested in working on some of these
>>>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>>>> issues. Since a lot has been covered in this thread, I'll try to
>>>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>>>> some of the points I've seen in this discussion and, perhaps,
>>>>>>>>> clarify where
>>>>>>>>> I think we are as an NFB division and what my vision is going
>>>>>>>>> forward for
>>>>>>>>> the division. For those of you following this thread and
>>>>>>>>> contributing to
>>>>>>>>> it, if there are particular points you think I've missed in
>>>>>>>>> the below
>>>>>>>>> paragraphs, feel free to point them out in the discussion that's
>>>>>>>>> sure to
>>>>>>>>> follow this message.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a long time NFB
>>>>>>>>> member
>>>>>>>>> who has
>>>>>>>>> worked in the IT field for the past 25 years. My expertise is in
>>>>>>>>> the field
>>>>>>>>> of Unix/Linux system programming and networking, both in writing
>>>>>>>>> client
>>>>>>>>> and server software, as well as building and maintaining local
>>>>>>>>> and wide
>>>>>>>>> area IP networks. I also have a good deal of experience
>>>>>>>>> building and
>>>>>>>>> maintaining VOIP telephony networks and services. For purposes of
>>>>>>>>> computer
>>>>>>>>> access, I am totally blind and rely completely on braille
>>>>>>>>> and/or speech
>>>>>>>>> output to gain access to the systems I work on. Because I use a
>>>>>>>>> variety of
>>>>>>>>> equipment, I use a variety of access technologies. I'm
>>>>>>>>> proficient with
>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver for iOS, NVDA under Windows, a long time user of
>>>>>>>>> Jaws, and,
>>>>>>>>> thanks to Mike Gorse, another member of this list, the Yasr
>>>>>>>>> program under Unix.
>>>>>>>>> It has long been my experience that creating access solutions
>>>>>>>>> which enable
>>>>>>>>> me to do my work have required thought, creativity, a lot of
>>>>>>>>> trial and
>>>>>>>>> error, much frustration on my part, and, some assistance from my
>>>>>>>>> colleagues
>>>>>>>>> and co-workers. As someone mentioned up thread on this list, I'm
>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>> that I've missed opportunities in my career due to lack of
>>>>>>>>> accessibility,
>>>>>>>>> or my inability to think of a viable access solution, or just an
>>>>>>>>> assumption
>>>>>>>>> on my part that I couldn't do this or that. Getting
>>>>>>>>> "backwatered" in the
>>>>>>>>> IT field is a constant problem for everyone who works in it, and
>>>>>>>>> it is a
>>>>>>>>> particular problem for blind individuals, myself included.
>>>>>>>>> Still, with
>>>>>>>>> that said, my career has been a rewarding one that has allowed me
>>>>>>>>> to enjoy
>>>>>>>>> life, participate in a variety of exciting adventures and to
>>>>>>>>> join the
>>>>>>>>> society of my friends and neighbors as a first class citizen. The
>>>>>>>>> NFB and,
>>>>>>>>> by extension, the NFB CS division, has been a key element of that
>>>>>>>>> success
>>>>>>>>> because they gave me access to the likes of Steve Jacobson,
>>>>>>>>> Curtis
>>>>>>>>> Chong,
>>>>>>>>> Curtis Willoughby, Lloyd Rasmussen, Jim Barbour and John
>>>>>>>>> Miller, not to
>>>>>>>>> mention a vast array of other mentors and friends who could not
>>>>>>>>> only teach
>>>>>>>>> me a bit about how to do what I wanted, but who lead by
>>>>>>>>> example by
>>>>>>>>> doing it
>>>>>>>>> themselves. I hope that overview will help inform the
>>>>>>>>> comments I have
>>>>>>>>> about particular issues in this thread that I'll mention below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. As Steve pointed out, the NFB CS Division is made up
>>>>>>>>> entirely of
>>>>>>>>> volunteers. That means the things that get done in the division
>>>>>>>>> are the
>>>>>>>>> ones folks find interesting to work on and which can be
>>>>>>>>> scheduled in
>>>>>>>>> available time. To that end, regarding the topic of an NFB CS
>>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>>> site or
>>>>>>>>> wikipedia, I think David Andrews said it best. It's not hard to
>>>>>>>>> build a
>>>>>>>>> web site or wikipedia pages, but maintaining them and their
>>>>>>>>> relevance is
>>>>>>>>> very difficult over time. A complaint I saw in this discussion
>>>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>>>> folks didn't know how to find the kinds of information they were
>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>>> once they asked on this list. Since this list is archived and
>>>>>>>>> since there
>>>>>>>>> is a web site where the archives are stored and accessible, it
>>>>>>>>> seems that
>>>>>>>>> maybe what we should think about doing as a division is figuring
>>>>>>>>> out how to
>>>>>>>>> funnel folks to that archive so they can find the answers
>>>>>>>>> folks have
>>>>>>>>> provided on this list. As an example, Nicole provided a nice
>>>>>>>>> summary of
>>>>>>>>> the solution to her 3270 emulation software problem. There is not
>>>>>>>>> a real
>>>>>>>>> need, in my mind, to complicate the process of geting the word
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> to other
>>>>>>>>> folks by asking her to write a formal wikipedia page explaining
>>>>>>>>> her fixes.
>>>>>>>>> Rather, a simple page explaining that we have this list and the
>>>>>>>>> best terms
>>>>>>>>> to type into Google to harvest what it has to offer seems like
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> quick
>>>>>>>>> and easy way to leverage this list as a valuable resource.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. As to the issue of accessible certification testing, I do see
>>>>>>>>> this as a
>>>>>>>>> barrier to job entry and, as such, I think it is something the
>>>>>>>>> division
>>>>>>>>> should try to address. I do not have the bandwidth or enough
>>>>>>>>> familiarity
>>>>>>>>> with the details of the problem to take the lead to work on
>>>>>>>>> this issue.
>>>>>>>>> However, if there are folks who are willing and able to work on
>>>>>>>>> this issue
>>>>>>>>> and to cary it forward, possibly to formal actions, I'm
>>>>>>>>> willing to
>>>>>>>>> facilitate that work and help bring it to fruition, either by
>>>>>>>>> advocating
>>>>>>>>> for it on the national level, or by writing letters to
>>>>>>>>> appropriate
>>>>>>>>> individuals or agencies, or some combination of that and other
>>>>>>>>> means. Write
>>>>>>>>> me off list if you are willing and able to work on this issue
>>>>>>>>> and we'll
>>>>>>>>> figure out what steps need to be taken to get things moving.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>>>>>> preclude
>>>>>>>>> us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but our
>>>>>>>>> official
>>>>>>>>> business meeting is at the NFB national convention. That said,
>>>>>>>>> beginning
>>>>>>>>> last year, we began offering the ability for folks to join the
>>>>>>>>> division on-line,
>>>>>>>>> allowing them to reep the benefits of NFB-CS membership.
>>>>>>>>> Browse to:
>>>>>>>>> https://web.nfbcal.org/nfbcsreg
>>>>>>>>> to sign up as an NFB-CS member.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Today, membership gains you the right to receive a copy
>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> recording of the 2019 NFB-CS meeting held in Las Vegas last
>>>>>>>>> summer. In
>>>>>>>>> future, it will entitle you to access the archive of recordings
>>>>>>>>> from our
>>>>>>>>> past meetings. If you attend our business meeting, it gives you
>>>>>>>>> the right
>>>>>>>>> to vote. If you are interested in working on any of the
>>>>>>>>> issues I've
>>>>>>>>> outlined in this e-mail, it would be my preference, but not a
>>>>>>>>> requirement,
>>>>>>>>> that you join the NFB-CS division as part of starting inon the
>>>>>>>>> work. In
>>>>>>>>> that way, you will be more officially connected with the division
>>>>>>>>> if any
>>>>>>>>> of the work becomes formal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5. Again, as Steve pointed out, most of the NFB-CS board
>>>>>>>>> monitors and
>>>>>>>>> participates in discussion on this list. Curtis Chong, our
>>>>>>>>> most recent
>>>>>>>>> past president and current treasurer, recently posted a
>>>>>>>>> treatise on the
>>>>>>>>> virtues of upgrading Windows to Windows 10 and trying out the
>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>> Microsoft Edge browser. Steve Jacobson, our vice president,
>>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>>> contributes insightful comments on various ongoing
>>>>>>>>> discussions. Jeanine
>>>>>>>>> Lineback, one of our board members, posts job postings for
>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>> accessibility related positions. I send out meeting related
>>>>>>>>> announcements
>>>>>>>>> regularly, and also try to contribute to discussions where I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> my input
>>>>>>>>> might be helpful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 6. In my mind, as I said earlier in this message, the real value
>>>>>>>>> to our
>>>>>>>>> division is the knowledge and experience of its members. This
>>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extends that knowledge and experience further because it
>>>>>>>>> includes many
>>>>>>>>> people who have a lot of experience but who are not officially
>>>>>>>>> members of
>>>>>>>>> the Division. I know some folks would like us to cater more
>>>>>>>>> toward people
>>>>>>>>> who are working in the computer science or IT fields. I
>>>>>>>>> understand that
>>>>>>>>> and have tried to move our agendas at our annual meeting in that
>>>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>>>> by including at least one panel or topic of interest to folks
>>>>>>>>> working in
>>>>>>>>> the computing profession. last year, for example, Tom Moore
>>>>>>>>> gave an
>>>>>>>>> excellent talk on how to build and maintain AWS networks and
>>>>>>>>> servers with
>>>>>>>>> nonvisual tools. However, I don't see a lot of value in
>>>>>>>>> splitting our
>>>>>>>>> resources into two lists, those discussing computer sciencey
>>>>>>>>> issues and
>>>>>>>>> those asking general accessibility questions. The truth is,
>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>> technology being what it is, complicated, buggy and a moving
>>>>>>>>> target,
>>>>>>>>> every blind computer professional I know has, at one time or
>>>>>>>>> another, been
>>>>>>>>> reduced to a neophyte user by a piece of buggy access technology,
>>>>>>>>> a buggy
>>>>>>>>> application, or just forgetting the magic sequence of commands or
>>>>>>>>> gestures
>>>>>>>>> to do a particular task with a particular ap from time to
>>>>>>>>> time. As
>>>>>>>>> such,
>>>>>>>>> my feeling is that we can all learn from every question that
>>>>>>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>> up on
>>>>>>>>> this list and for those of us who are more sophisticated, we can
>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> our own filtering if there are things we don't want to follow on
>>>>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>>>>> I, for example, have a very strong knowledge of Unix/Linux,
>>>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>>>> programming and integration, networking and VOIP systems.
>>>>>>>>> However, my
>>>>>>>>> knowledge of Windows is definitely not as complete. Therefore, I
>>>>>>>>> value the
>>>>>>>>> Windows questions that come up on this list because they teach me
>>>>>>>>> things I
>>>>>>>>> didn't know.
>>>>>>>>> Also, to that end, if there are things folks want us to work
>>>>>>>>> on as a
>>>>>>>>> division, I'm happy to entertain a discussion and potentially
>>>>>>>>> embark on the
>>>>>>>>> work, but I need your help to do it. So, when you think about
>>>>>>>>> suggestions
>>>>>>>>> for the Division to work on, also try to think about how we might
>>>>>>>>> go about working
>>>>>>>>> on them in a sustainable manner.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this missive. I
>>>>>>>>> hope it
>>>>>>>>> helps
>>>>>>>>> clarify how I see the Division. In the mean time, let's see
>>>>>>>>> if we
>>>>>>>>> can move
>>>>>>>>> some of these ideas in this thread forward, shall we?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Brian, President, NFB in Computer Science.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>>>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> for NFBCS:
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>> NFBCS:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>
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--
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail
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