[NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable Accommodations

Amanda Lacy lacy925 at gmail.com
Sat Sep 3 23:05:33 UTC 2022 

I would also like to help if I can. A wiki would have helped me tremendously in undergrad. It would still help me now. I often wonder if what I am trying to use is really inaccessible, or if I am just incompetent.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 3, 2022, at 5:53 PM, charles.vanek--- via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I agree with CJ, Wiki's get out of date quickly, however a proper wiki
> provides adequate detail as to last updates and history such that a reader
> can take elder articles with a grain of salt.  I'd be happy to help
> contribute and maintain.  I have my own random notes which I have thought
> about many times tidying them up and post formally to a public space for
> others to gain benefit.
> 
> How do we make this go from a thought to a reality?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain via
> NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 4:34 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at outlook.com>; Tracy Carcione
> <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
> Accommodations
> 
> I hope this doesn't come across as chastising, but although wiki's seem like
> a good idea, if they aren't maintained they quickly become out of date and
> depending on the topic could easily become useless if not harmful. That
> being said, it has to start somewhere, and I'd be supportive of a wiki and
> I'd even offer to contribute and help maintain it, while working out how to
> maintain such a wiki and keep it up to date.
> 
> --
> Christopher (AKA CJ)
> Chaltain at Outlook
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 1:42 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
> Accommodations
> 
> Hi Tyler.
> Last time we discussed this idea, I thought a Wikki would be an excellent
> way to go.  It explains things, and it is easily editable, or so I hear.
> I've never written or edited one, but they're meant to be updatable.  
> I don't know any of the nitty-gritty about how to organize articles so
> people can find what they need, etc, but, if there is interest in starting a
> group to discuss, I'd be willing to do my bit.  Not everything, but a part
> of everything.
> Tracy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tyler Littlefield
> via NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 11:20 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Cc: tyler Littlefield; Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
> Accommodations
> 
> I fully support the idea you're raising here. In mental health circles, this
> is called spoon theory. You start with x number of spoons and each issue you
> deal with through the day takes one away. as a blind person, your spoons
> seem to vanish at a rather alarming rate on normal days.
> 
> 
> I'd be for making a resource that helps. The last time I suggested writing
> articles and offered to throw money in in an NFB call I was chastised for
> proposing solutions and the idea died. If there are plenty of like-minded
> people who want that kind of platform, we should do something; it doesn't
> have to be tied to NFBCS.
> 
> 
> I am in full agreement that a central resource could be useful. I'm thinking
> something like a wiki though, and not the pay-for-tutorial service Peter is
> pushing here.
> 
> 
> Not everyone has the money, and if the goal is to help people be employed by
> providing tips and tricks to issues, charging people already struggling
> feels like you're kicking them when they're already down.
> 
> 
>> On 9/3/2022 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>> Hi Curtis.
>> I agree, and I've done the same, as I'm sure we all have.
>> One improvement now is that, last time I got training a couple years 
>> ago,
> I
>> was able to ask for the training material in an accessible format, 
>> like Word,  before the training started, so I was able to study it and 
>> work
> along
>> with the class, instead of catching up later.
>> 
>> But I firmly believe that it shouldn't take a huge effort for a blind
> person
>> to figure out how to make things accessible.  They shouldn't have to 
>> reinvent the wheel.  They should at least be able to Google and find 
>> out
> if
>> someone else has already figured out a solution.
>> I've found this list to be an invaluable resource for solving some 
>> accessibility issues, and I've seen us discuss in-depth how to access 
>> software I don't know about.  I think it would be great if someone who
> does
>> need to know could find the discussion, even if they're not part of 
>> the listserve.
>> I suspect that struggling with accessibility, trying to find the 
>> answers
> you
>> need, is part of why the unemployment rate is so high for blind people.
>> People just get worn out by the struggle.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis 
>> Chong
> via
>> NFBCS
>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 4:09 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>> Subject: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable 
>> Accommodations
>> 
>> Greetings everyone:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to second what Brian Buhrow said in his recent email.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be in 
>> technology or something else, it is necessary to become an expert on 
>> how
> to
>> make things accessible for yourself."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> While some of you might assert that we cannot all be experts in making 
>> things accessible to ourselves, the reality is that as individual 
>> blind people working in an organization where we might be the only 
>> blind person employed, we must take responsibility for hunting down 
>> the solutions we
> need
>> so that we can do our jobs in a way that encourages our employers to 
>> want
> to
>> keep us. It is a rare thing indeed for technology training classes 
>> (not to mention other corporate training venues) to be 
>> nonvisually-accessible to
> us
>> by default. In fact, I maintain that if we insist that these classes 
>> need
> to
>> be 100% accessible nonvisually in order for us to keep our jobs, our 
>> value to the employer will be reduced to the point where we are no 
>> longer useful to have around. When email first became a reality in the 
>> large corporation for which I was working (this would have been back 
>> in the early 1990's), I took the same courses on how to use the email 
>> system that my sighted colleagues took. Then, when I needed to figure 
>> out how a mouse click could be activated from the keyboard, I spent 
>> extra time with the trainer to try to figure out if, indeed, there 
>> were keyboard equivalents to the mouse
> that
>> would work for me. During my time in mainstream information 
>> technology, I was oftentimes required to travel to distant cities to 
>> attend week-long trainings where the material was presented for people 
>> who could see and where readers were nowhere to be found. Sometimes, I 
>> attended these
> classes
>> with sighted colleagues who were willing and able to provide some 
>> assistance. At other times, I attended these classes by myself and 
>> figured out what I needed to know later when I got back to my office.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> All of this is to make the point that there is a limit to how much we 
>> as blind employees can expect to receive in the way of "reasonable"
>> accommodations. When the level of accommodation provided to us reaches 
>> a certain point (a point, by the way, which differs from one 
>> organization to another), the positive support we have garnered tends 
>> to wane as the
> effort
>> required to provide that support increases.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I hope I am making some kind of logical sense here. If not, I 
>> appreciate hearing from folks to help to clarify my thinking on this
> issue.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Curtis Chong
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via 
>> NFBCS
>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 1:32 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Feedback Request
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>           hello peter.  As a long time IT person who has worked on
> networks,
>> large computer
>> 
>> installations, and a variety of technical projects, I am going to echo 
>> wha others have said
>> 
>> here about on-line resources.  It is usually the case that when one is 
>> learning a new API or
>> 
>> programming technique, or any new skill for that matter, what one 
>> needs to know about is the
>> 
>> skill itself, not about the blindness adaptations necessary to become 
>> an expert at that skill.
>> 
>> Because everyone's blindness skills are different, it makes the most 
>> sense for the individual
>> 
>> learning the new thing to figure out the way that works best for them.
>> 
>> So, for example, Bookshare.  Yes, the books in Bookshare may not 
>> discuss ways to peform the
>> 
>> skills those books teach as they might be performed by a blind person, 
>> but the fact that the
>> 
>> books are accessible on Bookshare makes them extremely useful to blind
> folks
>> just by virtue of
>> 
>> the fact that they're there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Now, having read those books, one can then ask specific questions 
>> about
> how
>> a specific API or
>> 
>> development environment might be used in an accessible manner.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>           If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it 
>> be
> in
>> technology or something
>> 
>> else, it is necessary to become an expert on how to make things 
>> accessible for yourself.  As
>> 
>> part of that, building a network, as exists on this list, becomes one 
>> of
> the
>> tools you use to
>> 
>> gain the knowledge you need to do the things you want.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Blindness specific training is wonderful, but it is mostly a general 
>> training in the sense that it
>> 
>> teaches you how to teach yourself to use tools or create techniques 
>> which make things
>> 
>> accessible to you.  Those tools and techniques might not work for 
>> anyone else in the world, but
>> 
>> if they work for you, then you're good.  For example, for me, half the 
>> battle of learning to do
>> 
>> something is just knowing another blind person has done that thing.  
>> If I know they have, then
>> 
>> I can turn the question of "can I do something?" to "How do I do
> something?"
>> Once I've have
>> 
>> how, then I can go about setting up the task of figuring it out.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>           Part of the reason we've not set up an NFB CS web site is 
>> that
> it
>> would be out of date
>> 
>> before we finished building it.  If we said, for example, that 
>> something
> was
>> inaccessible,
>> 
>> someone would prove us wrong.  Or, if we said, if you follow these 
>> instructions for making
>> 
>> something work, the thing would change and our instructions would be 
>> rendered inoperative.
>> 
>> In other words, what we offer you here, and in our training centers, 
>> are a lot of fishing
>> 
>> poles.  We leave it to you, the fisherman to go out and catch your fish.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Brian
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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