[NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable Accommodations
William Grussenmeyer
wdg31415 at gmail.com
Sun Sep 4 21:44:42 UTC 2022
Well Steve, I plan on using my financial independence to make some new
interfaces or tools. I think setting up a non-profit opensource
company would be best way to spend my money. Instead of writing a
script for NVDA or JAWS to access just one Cloud computing service, I
was thinking of making a universal interface application that could
access all major cloud services (azure, aws, gcloud, etc)and could be
used by any screen reader on any platform. I am thinking of a cross
platform react type application. This would also be helpful in some
ML and data analytics as many cloud providers offer ML and data
analytic services built into them.
On 9/4/22, Steve Jacobson via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> William and everybody,
>
> Rather than either complaining about the state of assistive technology or
> about William's approach, I would like to try to pull something useful out
> of this discussion. I think that Susie Stanzel made some good points in
> this regard in her note as well.
>
> First, William, I am sorry that you had the experience that you had. Part
> of me feels that there is likely something that could have been done to help
> you deal with some of the barriers you encountered, but I know too little
> about your situation to know how likely that would have been. Let me add
> quickly that I am not saying you are not capable of figuring out
> alternatives yourself because you clearly are knowledgeable, but more than
> once I have benefited from other blind people suggesting something I had not
> thought of. I am glad that you have the financial resources to have the
> option to not work.
>
> To paraphrase what Susie said to some degree, most of us are in a position
> where we really need to work to get what we want out of life. This means
> figuring out how to use the tools that are available to us and also the job
> that fits our strengths. I think it is generally very unlikely that most of
> us would be doing the exact jobs as sighted people as we are doing as blind
> people. For me, had everything else been the same, perhaps I would have
> been more successful had I had vision. However, having vision would have
> changed many things. I likely would have spent some time in Vietnam, for
> one thing, and who knows what changes that could have caused. Therefore, I
> do not spend a lot of time thinking about what I could have had if I had
> normal vision.
>
> The fact is that our assistive technology could use improvement. Whether it
> is truly buggy or simply can't convey the necessary information doesn't
> matter. I recall about six years ago it was my job to prepare a daily
> report that involved getting some information from the web and from an excel
> spreadsheet and paste results into a second spreadsheet. Every time I
> pasted the data, Excel crashed, but it didn't crash without a screen reader.
> I figured out a way around the problem, though, but it took extra time.
> Nobody could tell me why I was experiencing the crash, and either a later
> version of the screen reader or Excel corrected the problem. My point is
> that we do have to deal with bugs sometimes. I can admit now that when this
> would happen to me at 5:30 in the morning, I probably exclaimed that this
> just was not fair. It certainly wasn't fair, and it is a case where I
> needed one of those extra spoons that were discussed earlier. The point,
> though, isn't whether I would be a better employee if I were sighted. Even
> if it could be shown that I would be a better employee if I had vision, my
> concern is with being a good enough employee to be worth what I am paid.
>
> William, you and some others here have a valuable perspective that many of
> us do not have. You have accessed computers visually and you have worked
> through assistive technology. Have you considered donating time to the NVDA
> project or perhaps tried to get a paid position at Vispero to influence
> development in a positive way? I have ideas of how assistive technology
> could be better, but I do not have your perspective.
>
> The bottom line here is that most of us do not have the option of not
> working. We have to take our talents and our assistive technology and do
> the best we can. Many of us have managed to be successful doing that and we
> will continue trying to do our best for ourselves and for those who come
> after us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of William Grussenmeyer via
> NFBCS
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 1:59 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: William Grussenmeyer <wdg31415 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
> Accommodations
>
> I have a much different perspective on all of this.
> I was sighted with perfect 20/20 vision when I started programming and using
> a computer in general when I was 12 years old in 1992. I played video games
> competitively, and ranked in the top 10 of many games. I also was the best
> programmer in my A.P. Computer Science course in senior year in high school,
> and I scored perfect on the A.P. computer science test. I started
> programming classes in my first year in college. But at the end of my first
> year my trouble with vision began.
> It is a long story after that point but suffice to say that I am fully blind
> now and I had to relearn how to use a computer and learn assistive
> technology, and how to program a computer without any vision.
> And I can tell you even with the best accessibility solutions, that
> assistive technology is slow, laggy, unreliable, and fucking crap compared
> to when I could see and use vision.
> When I could see and use vision I was a 100 times faster at learning,
> programming and working.
> At this point, you are rolling your eyes and saying I did not try hard
> enough and just could not adapt.
> But there is one little problem with that theory.
> After I became completely blind, I relearned the computer and went on to do
> a phd in computer science, with top journal and conference publications
> around the world in Italy, Australia, and Canada among other places.
> Also, I received an NSF Fellow Ship that paid tuition, living expenses and
> travel expenses for my phd.
> On top of that, I received a Google scholarship, a California NFB
> scholarship and many others.
> But I also succeeded in top private tech companies.
> I did an internship at Google and passed their online interview loop.
> I then worked full time at Microsoft after my phd. I went through their 5
> hour technical interview loop.
> After I was bored at Microsoft, I went through the Amazon 5 hour interview
> loop and recieved a strong yes from all interviewers even the bar raiser.
> I worked at Microsoft 2 years and worked for Amazon 3 years.
> I finally just quit out of disgust. Despite only working full time for 5
> years I have plenty of stock and savings to live off for the forseeable
> future.
> The fact that the fucking accommodations portal was not accessible at Amazon
> may have been the straw that broke the back. Or maybe it was the diversity
> and inclusion training which was not accessible and they just marked it
> completed for me even though I did not take it.
> Or maybe it was promoting the 20 year old college kid who has been only 1
> year out of college above me.
> I do not know, but I do know that I cannot compete at the level I want to
> with all this worthless assistive technology crap that you guys think is all
> so great.
> Screen readers are slow, unreliable, and too complicated. They take
> too long to learn and they are too cognitively heavy. Braille
> output is a pain also. The government guidelines for accessibility are the
> stupidest things I have ever read in my life.
> You guys are clueless on how fast, easy, and stress less technology can be
> with vision.
> I quit my job and now I am thinking of starting my own non-profit
> accessibility and research company. With a phd, I can apply for federal
> grants for research and non-profit funding.
> The point is not accessibility though.
> The goal I would want to aim for is making super high performance (for the
> user) software and interfaces to speed up productivity, lessen stress and
> lessen cognitive load, and let disabled people compete even better in the
> workplace.
> Most people in the world find using computers difficult and stressful,
> whether they have a disability or not.
> I have my eye on building some easy to use, high HCI performance interfaces
> for cloud computing and data analytics for disabled people to use.
> There are many people out there who are not software engineers and cannot
> roll their own command line, scripting solutions for the shitty cloud
> computing and data analytics interfaces that non-disabled people use.
> Even as a SWE, I find the Cloud command line interfaces a slow pain in the
> ass to use. And the ones for data analytics are even worse.
> I do not know when I will try to start my non-profit. Right now, I am just
> winding down from an 8 year phd and 5 year sprint in the top tech companies.
> I am trying to relax and not give myself a stroke.
>
>
> On 9/3/22, tyler Littlefield via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I fully support the idea you're raising here. In mental health
>> circles, this is called spoon theory. You start with x number of
>> spoons and each issue you deal with through the day takes one away. as
>> a blind person, your spoons seem to vanish at a rather alarming rate on
>> normal days.
>>
>>
>> I'd be for making a resource that helps. The last time I suggested
>> writing articles and offered to throw money in in an NFB call I was
>> chastised for proposing solutions and the idea died. If there are
>> plenty of like-minded people who want that kind of platform, we should
>> do something; it doesn't have to be tied to NFBCS.
>>
>>
>> I am in full agreement that a central resource could be useful. I'm
>> thinking something like a wiki though, and not the pay-for-tutorial
>> service Peter is pushing here.
>>
>>
>> Not everyone has the money, and if the goal is to help people be
>> employed by providing tips and tricks to issues, charging people
>> already struggling feels like you're kicking them when they're already
>> down.
>>
>>
>> On 9/3/2022 7:31 AM, Tracy Carcione via NFBCS wrote:
>>> Hi Curtis.
>>> I agree, and I've done the same, as I'm sure we all have.
>>> One improvement now is that, last time I got training a couple years
>>> ago, I was able to ask for the training material in an accessible
>>> format, like Word, before the training started, so I was able to
>>> study it and work along with the class, instead of catching up later.
>>>
>>> But I firmly believe that it shouldn't take a huge effort for a blind
>>> person to figure out how to make things accessible. They shouldn't
>>> have to reinvent the wheel. They should at least be able to Google
>>> and find out if someone else has already figured out a solution.
>>> I've found this list to be an invaluable resource for solving some
>>> accessibility issues, and I've seen us discuss in-depth how to access
>>> software I don't know about. I think it would be great if someone
>>> who does need to know could find the discussion, even if they're not
>>> part of the listserve.
>>> I suspect that struggling with accessibility, trying to find the
>>> answers you need, is part of why the unemployment rate is so high for
>>> blind people.
>>> People just get worn out by the struggle.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis
>>> Chong via NFBCS
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 4:09 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Curtis Chong
>>> Subject: [NFBCS] The Fine Line Between Reasonable Versus Unreasonable
>>> Accommodations
>>>
>>> Greetings everyone:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to second what Brian Buhrow said in his recent email.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether it be in
>>> technology or something else, it is necessary to become an expert on
>>> how to make things accessible for yourself."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While some of you might assert that we cannot all be experts in
>>> making things accessible to ourselves, the reality is that as
>>> individual blind people working in an organization where we might be
>>> the only blind person employed, we must take responsibility for
>>> hunting down the solutions we need so that we can do our jobs in a
>>> way that encourages our employers to want to keep us. It is a rare
>>> thing indeed for technology training classes (not to mention other
>>> corporate training venues) to be nonvisually-accessible to us by
>>> default. In fact, I maintain that if we insist that these classes
>>> need to be 100% accessible nonvisually in order for us to keep our
>>> jobs, our value to the employer will be reduced to the point where we
>>> are no longer useful to have around. When email first became a
>>> reality in the large corporation for which I was working (this would
>>> have been back in the early 1990's), I took the same courses on how
>>> to use the email system that my sighted colleagues took. Then, when I
>>> needed to figure out how a mouse click could be activated from the
>>> keyboard, I spent extra time with the trainer to try to figure out
>>> if, indeed, there were keyboard equivalents to the mouse that would
>>> work for me. During my time in mainstream information technology, I
>>> was oftentimes required to travel to distant cities to attend
>>> week-long trainings where the material was presented for people who
>>> could see and where readers were nowhere to be found. Sometimes, I
>>> attended these classes with sighted colleagues who were willing and
>>> able to provide some assistance. At other times, I attended these
>>> classes by myself and figured out what I needed to know later when I
>>> got back to my office.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All of this is to make the point that there is a limit to how much we
>>> as blind employees can expect to receive in the way of "reasonable"
>>> accommodations. When the level of accommodation provided to us
>>> reaches a certain point (a point, by the way, which differs from one
>>> organization to another), the positive support we have garnered tends
>>> to wane as the effort required to provide that support increases.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope I am making some kind of logical sense here. If not, I
>>> appreciate hearing from folks to help to clarify my thinking on this
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Curtis Chong
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brian Buhrow via
>>> NFBCS
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2022 1:32 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Brian Buhrow <buhrow at nfbcal.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Feedback Request
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hello peter. As a long time IT person who has worked on
>>> networks, large computer
>>>
>>> installations, and a variety of technical projects, I am going to
>>> echo wha others have said
>>>
>>> here about on-line resources. It is usually the case that when one
>>> is learning a new API or
>>>
>>> programming technique, or any new skill for that matter, what one
>>> needs to know about is the
>>>
>>> skill itself, not about the blindness adaptations necessary to become
>>> an expert at that skill.
>>>
>>> Because everyone's blindness skills are different, it makes the most
>>> sense for the individual
>>>
>>> learning the new thing to figure out the way that works best for them.
>>>
>>> So, for example, Bookshare. Yes, the books in Bookshare may not
>>> discuss ways to peform the
>>>
>>> skills those books teach as they might be performed by a blind
>>> person, but the fact that the
>>>
>>> books are accessible on Bookshare makes them extremely useful to
>>> blind folks just by virtue of
>>>
>>> the fact that they're there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, having read those books, one can then ask specific questions
>>> about how a specific API or
>>>
>>> development environment might be used in an accessible manner.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If one is going to hold a job as a blind person, whether
>>> it be in technology or something
>>>
>>> else, it is necessary to become an expert on how to make things
>>> accessible for yourself. As
>>>
>>> part of that, building a network, as exists on this list, becomes one
>>> of the tools you use to
>>>
>>> gain the knowledge you need to do the things you want.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Blindness specific training is wonderful, but it is mostly a general
>>> training in the sense that it
>>>
>>> teaches you how to teach yourself to use tools or create techniques
>>> which make things
>>>
>>> accessible to you. Those tools and techniques might not work for
>>> anyone else in the world, but
>>>
>>> if they work for you, then you're good. For example, for me, half
>>> the battle of learning to do
>>>
>>> something is just knowing another blind person has done that thing.
>>> If I know they have, then
>>>
>>> I can turn the question of "can I do something?" to "How do I do
>>> something?"
>>> Once I've have
>>>
>>> how, then I can go about setting up the task of figuring it out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Part of the reason we've not set up an NFB CS web site is
>>> that it would be out of date
>>>
>>> before we finished building it. If we said, for example, that
>>> something was inaccessible,
>>>
>>> someone would prove us wrong. Or, if we said, if you follow these
>>> instructions for making
>>>
>>> something work, the thing would change and our instructions would be
>>> rendered inoperative.
>>>
>>> In other words, what we offer you here, and in our training centers,
>>> are a lot of fishing
>>>
>>> poles. We leave it to you, the fisherman to go out and catch your fish.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> NFBCS mailing list
>>>
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