[NFBCS] Feedback Request
tyler Littlefield
tyler at tysdomain.com
Tue Sep 6 02:06:49 UTC 2022
Hi Mike,
A name is actually something that would help. The only issue is that
this has expanded beyond computer science. Some people have said they
want to work on math solutions, others music translation solutions and
document them. Something discussed in another thread (I think it was
another thread) is the idea of using Github. A groups.io would make
sense as a mailing list to communicate, and perhaps we should move some
of this discussion to something so we're not clogging up someone's
inbox, eventually. The bonus for a Github site is two-fold: first, it
enables people to contribute who have a github account and is a really
well known service and site, which would potentially enable other people
to add content, but the workflow also allows us to use a theme. This
would create a responsive website where the site works better for mobile
devices on mobile devices, and scales up to larger screens for desktop
devices. This is really important because it will put us high in the
search results when googling things that we've set up resources or
articles on, which could help direct traffic to other sites and place
this in a location that is easier to notice. Ease of discovery and use
for everyone is, at least in my oppinion critical to insuring this be as
widely available as possible. This isn't just my project, however, so
I'm open to any ideas or thoughts people have. This can't be a single
person's pride and joy because there's simply too much to be done here,
and the project is by definition collaborative and community driven.
To answer your second question, I'm by far not an expert on this, so I'm
interested to know other people's thoughts and ideas. Despite
programming for a really long time, I've only had experience in a few
different companies. One of them was using a lot older technology and
did code reviews much like I imagine they happened in the 90s. There
were accessibility issues, but for the most part they didn't interfere
with my ability to work. More modern companies using more platforms
certainly aren't the same, however. Even here I've been incredibly lucky
to find a job at a company that is open to accessibility problems and is
willing and interesting to find solutions. I can speak to a few issues here:
We were using Tenrox, for my first two years at this company. It is a
time management system that we needed to enter hours on for project
planning/etc. This was not accessible in the slightest. I spent a while
attempting to solve the problem and had to reach out to my manager to
let him know; unfortunately this meant that he was on the hook to enter
my time for me every week. I could email him when changes to the typical
distribution changed. I realize that I'm incredibly lucky to have
someone who is willing to do this, however and it is not the chosen
solution. It also helped my case that I tried to create other solutions.
Senior management is aware that I used their API and attempted to write
an interface to enter my own time, but that didn't work out because the
API wasn't all that well documented.
Other issues at various companies included not being able to present. We
used Skype for Business at one of my internships, and I would have to
present testcases, sometimes over conference because people I was
working with would sometimes be remote. Everyone used Skype there
instead of Skype for business for regular chat, and we had group chats.
I would send out an email with my calendar link letting them know to
RSVP to me, and a few minutes before each meeting I would create a skype
thread I could screenshare with including everyone that was remote
wishing to work with me. This felt like a reasonable solution and no one
seemed to care too much.
When I work with websites that aren't accessible, sometimes parts of
them are, or sometimes people can send me links to pages I can't
otherwise access. I've made changes to backend systems at various places
when they were worked on in-house to fix it for myself. Interestingly
enough, this also tends to fix issues for others. I've
scripted/automated some issues that I couldn't otherwise solve, as well.
Sometimes if I need to do something that is only done through a backend
service like submit information to accounting, or HR, or anyone else
I'll sometimes just show up at their desk (this worked when we weren't
all remote) or send them an email and see if they have a few minutes to
talk to me. Usually once I explain something I've been able to work out
a solution. This falls firmly in the networking bucket of the ideas you
mentioned. One of the hardest parts about this solution is that it
requires I stash my frustration, because approaching someone when you're
upset is likely not going to get them on your side. They have a million
things to do every day, and you are essentially depending on their good
will to help you resolve your problem. Making connections through the
company has always been important for me. This goes farther than just
connecting to people in offices; if I'm in a place where I know that
I'll struggle to get the right k-cups, or know where drinks are in the
employee fridge, etc, sometimes talking to the receptionist who handles
these issues or someone in facilities is enough to insure my very own
favorite box of k-cups never runs out and it's at my desk so I can just
take one to the maker with me. There are still things I can't solve or
handle, and I try as much as possible to overcome those things by being
a better employee and helping out in other places, which certainly
creates another layer of pressure in some instances.
Thanks,
Ty
On 9/5/2022 8:50 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
> Tyler,
>
> What about using groups.io, to run what we want to do? It has a mailing list, the ability to set up a wiki associated with a group, and the messages can actually be viewed online, through your groups.io account. You can view emails that way, or through your email inbox like this. for bringing people into an accessibility umbrella, what about calling the group something like accessible computer science?
>
> Back to the idea of coping with accessibility issues in the workplace, what do you do when a company‘s internal websites aren’t accessible? Also, what do you do when the company‘s internal software isn’t accessible? How do you find work arounds there?
>
> Mike
>
>> On Sep 5, 2022, at 7:41 PM, tyler Littlefield <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, when your solutions fail, we have to start finding creative ways to solve the problems. I don't really see any workaround to that. What I'm really hoping this wiki can accomplish is to provide another tool in the toolbox you've already outlined for people to look for resources. The more of us documenting issues and solutions, the more likely it is that someone will get stuck on an almost Friday and find a problem and happily trundle onward in our day.
>>
>>
>> Right now, this is honestly the only idea I can come up with, but it's something I do hope can make someone's day easier.
>>
>>
>> I've often thought or wondered what it might be like to have a more interactive platform that isn't EMail, but as you may have seen, even on this list itself people are using a ton of different technologies. Some of us can't agree that this should be a wiki vs a specific division site, and I'm not sure email servers can keep up with a spirited discussion of which of the many many platforms out there would be the best. There is also the usability portion of this which would be that if we were to settle on Discord for example, plenty of people struggle to use Discord.
>>
>>
>> My only other potential idea would be a place to bring everyone together more fully under an accessibility umbrella, and how that might look. This is a division-specific mailing list, and plenty of people are not associated with NFB or may not be interested. Maybe a way to broaden the group?
>>
>>
>> All of these are, unfortunately long-term goals, and even with any of them in place, we're still looking at the same types of solutions you mentioned. To clarify, I was not shooting those down (and I hope the pizza party comment didn't come across wrong--i meant it to be taken as a joke). The main point I wanted to make is that there are more parts to this solution, and I think it's going to take a lot of building blocks, but also to point out that sometimes using any tools in the toolbox is tough. With enough blocks in place, maybe we can eventually build something that provides more resources or know that the people following us will have a better time of navigating.
>>
>>> On 9/5/2022 8:19 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
>>> Tyler,
>>>
>>> I agree with you on the mental health issues. I suffered from depression at my last job, when I got turned down on work, or thought I wasn’t competing fast enough with sighted coworkers.
>>>
>>> How do you think we can quickly come up with solutions when people don’t want to accommodate, and advocacy doesn’t solve the problem? What are some examples of how to solve accessibility issues in time-sensitive situations when you don’t have time to send e-mail or have a pizza party?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>>> On Sep 5, 2022, at 6:51 PM, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>>> Michael:
>>>>
>>>> In some sense, I agree a lot with what you're saying, but there's one very clear issue that I've touched on, all be it very tangentially.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wrote a comment about spoon theory here a while back relating to our own accessibility solutions. I've been very open; I deal with depression to a pretty large extent, and various other issues. Some days, I get along just fine and encountering issues isn't a problem because I can put on my thinking cap and solve them. Other days, realizing that I can't accomplish a basic task related to work, when I might already be feeling insecure or anxious about not working as fast as a sighted peer may is the final straw.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I'm in total agreement that advocacy does often get you a long way in life, and so does networking. But I also think that it's very hand-wavey to say that the solution to this problem is advocacy and networking followed by creative thinking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As blind professionals, we are frequently asked to solve problems constantly that most others don't need to. The mental health issues that a lot of blind people report intersect in many cases, and there is a much higher rate of depression among people who are blind. I believe this is part of the case. We work within a society that, in many cases does not care to accommodate us; it's not in the society's best interest, as many would see it to make life easier for others. We applaud people who solve individual issues because it helps people feel a heartwarmning sense of community and awe when someone makes a specific task more accessible, rather than for people to consider a society in which accessibility and usability were the norm, and what making such a thing happen might look like.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's very exciting to hear that the editor you relied on was fixed. Generally, this is not the case; I can point to numerous companies I've contacted to become more accessible who brush it off or simply don't care. It's easy to suggest that you reach out to contacts and network, and sometimes that can work. Other times, you're in a crunch at work, working on a project that needs to be delivered, or a ticket so you can move to the next and you don't have the time to host a pizza party and invite all your blind coder pals over (or send an email and hope someone sees it) to ask for solutions to the problem. Many times someone might not even do the same thing you do so you might still be on your own to solve the problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to rain down doom and gloom on your message, because I very much do think that there are a lot of things we, as blind professionals can do. But I want to point out that the solution to any problem is typically nuanced, and it is very much so in this case, as well. Not everyone has the same amount of spoons every day; or put another way, one's starting line is not always going to be located where another persons might be.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Ty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/5/2022 6:35 PM, Michael Walker via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> Adding to the idea of using main stream resources to learn programming, if I had accessibility questions, I either googled for the answers, asked on the mailing lists related to the specific product, Community forums related to that product, or one of these email lists for the blind. When I had an accessibility problem about a year ago with the freecodecamp text editor, I asked in the freecodecamp forum if anybody knew about it. This led to the text editor being made more accessible. It was like a form of self advocacy. The issue with the text editor was that it kept speaking the word edit, anytime I pressed the arrow keys when using jaws in forms mode. That’s when I asked in the forums if anyone came across it, and the freecodecamp developers fixed the editor. Again, free code camp was not designed specifically for blind people, but that made it just a little easier to use for blind people, because I advocated.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I want to learn asp.net, you guessed it. I’d start with the official website, and maybe some books through books share or O’Reilly. If I come across an accessibility issue, I might post the question here, or even on stack overflow.
>>>>>
>>>>> You get the ideas. I feel like the biggest solution to this whole conundrum is that Blind people just need to network with each other, and put themselves out in the main stream world with the support forums and developers building the products.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2022, at 5:09 PM, Michael Walker <michael.walker199014 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Good evening,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I skimmed some of the emails on this discussion. I agree with what the professionals have said about becoming proficient with your screen readers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I learned what I needed to know about C sharp, I used the documentation at Microsoft. When I needed to learn python, I used the official website. I’ve also found free code camp helpful for learning front and web development. None of these resources were designed to target blind people, but blind people can still benefit from them, if proficient with a screen reader. Even if not targeting blind people, these resources are still accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take the example of Microsoft learn that I discussed above. If there was a resource for the blind to learn sea sharp, that would become out of date, compared to how quickly Microsoft may update the .net framework and the C-sharp language. Microsoft documentation would still have the most up-to-date information, and it is reasonably accessible, if you’re proficient with your screen reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let’s think outside of the field of computer science. What would the world look like, if us blind people stopped using main stream resources like Google and YouTube, and built our own stuff, that was designed for the blind? Isn’t it nice to still be able to watch You YouTube videos that everybody else can watch, to understand the subject? If there was your own YouTube or Google for the blind, it would obviously be very limited. YouTube has millions of videos. New videos are being created daily that the blind and sighted communities can benefit from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 1, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Peter via NFBCS <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are many resources available to sighted would-be
>>>>>>> computer professionals that for the blind have a major drawback the lack of
>>>>>>> the information needed to address usability and accessibility concerns for
>>>>>>> blind children and adults. Anyone who uses computers has probably taken
>>>>>>> advantage of a number of tutorials produce to teach the use of various
>>>>>>> computer devices and operating systems, productivity software and
>>>>>>> Internet-related skill development walk-through programs taught from a
>>>>>>> blindness perspective. A number of blind individuals created outstanding
>>>>>>> instructional tutorials many of us have used over the years. This has made
>>>>>>> it possible for many blind persons to learn the inns and outs of using
>>>>>>> devices such as smartphones, and digital-audio production hardware along
>>>>>>> with computer operating systems and applications such as Microsoft 365,
>>>>>>> various web browsers, audio and video production software to name a few.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To the best of our knowledge few if any instructional
>>>>>>> tutorials exist that teach would-be blind computer professionals and end
>>>>>>> users how to write computer applications using various programming languages
>>>>>>> such as Python, C++, R, and others, the use of integrated development
>>>>>>> environments like Microsoft Visual Studio or Visual Studio Code, Eclipse,
>>>>>>> and other IDES usable by a blind computer programmer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Likewise I am not aware of tutorials that instruct blind
>>>>>>> youth and adults in the use of various Internet and Website hosting systems
>>>>>>> like game development, Drupal, Wordpress, Joomla and other content
>>>>>>> management systems or in the use of hosting platforms like Amazon Web
>>>>>>> Services, Google Cloud Platform, Linode Cloud Hosting, etc. With individuals
>>>>>>> and companies obtaining their computing power from an online environment
>>>>>>> instead of desktop applications it is important that blind users of these
>>>>>>> services know how to develop on these platforms, and know the tips and
>>>>>>> tricks of handling accessibility issues and finding work-arounds from those
>>>>>>> who have been there and done that. Such knowledge can also help blind youth
>>>>>>> and adults plan and seek employment in STEM-related careers involving
>>>>>>> technology. Classroom management programs like Google Classroom is another
>>>>>>> possible subject for instructional tutorials to be created. Although an
>>>>>>> excellent tutorial for learning Zoom was created early during the COVID 19
>>>>>>> Pandemic and was made freely available by Jonathan Mosen no such tutorials
>>>>>>> have been created to instruct the blind in the use of other such
>>>>>>> videoconferencing systems like Microsoft Teams and Slack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another area where instructional material from a blindness
>>>>>>> perspective is next to nonexistent is in the use and management of customer
>>>>>>> relations systems such as Amazon Connect, Salesforce, Seibel, and others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some have given online classes for blind programmers and in
>>>>>>> the use of other modern applications, but I am not aware of any such
>>>>>>> instructional tutorials similar to those developed in years past for devices
>>>>>>> and desktop applications that teach these skills from a blindness
>>>>>>> perspective that a blind individual can replay and review as often as
>>>>>>> necessary to thoroughly understand the information shared and to look up
>>>>>>> points that may have been missed when such classes are taught online.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To help create a way to make such documentation and
>>>>>>> tutorials available to blind students and tech professionals answers to the
>>>>>>> following questions would be very much appreciated:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you wish to learn a program language or a particular
>>>>>>> Internet or cloud service and obtain the work-arounds to allow you to do it
>>>>>>> independently how do you obtain this instruction?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What have been your experiences when receiving this
>>>>>>> instruction online or in a facility-based program i.e. a rehabilitation
>>>>>>> center, lighthouse, etc?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you answered "Yes" to the previous question what
>>>>>>> advantages and drawbacks did you experience when learning this way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What type of programming or game development language, application Website
>>>>>>> Hosting, Cloud platform development, content, management customer relations
>>>>>>> System and Videoconferencing tutorials do you feel would be of most benefit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which media types would you prefer for using
>>>>>>> these tutorials, audio, video, CD, DVD, downloadable files with purches,
>>>>>>> online listening and viewing via subscription, text and Braille hardcopy and
>>>>>>> downloadable transcripts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would you be willing to pay for these tutorials?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would you want to buy individual tutorials or would you
>>>>>>> subscribe to a service that would allow you to consume as many tutorials as
>>>>>>> you wish similar to a subscription to services like SiriusXM, Amazon Prime
>>>>>>> Video, Netflix, Disney Plus, Wondrium, ETC that charges a monthly
>>>>>>> subscription fee?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would you be willing to produce tutorials in your area of
>>>>>>> expertise for compensation to help us grow our library?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please understand that this is all exploratory at this time.
>>>>>>> If developed a service of this kind will give blind would-be computer
>>>>>>> professionals and those employed in related careers another way to learn
>>>>>>> many subjects taught by experienced blind professionals who can share their
>>>>>>> knowledge from a blindness perspective. Your feedback will be very much
>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> NFBCS at nfbnet.org
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