<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">In the little time I've had to research and play, a couple of things to point out.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">First, mixing VRAM and RAM is bad. Your 4GB "VRAM" is (I assume given your specs) actually 4GB of RAM allocated to the integrated GPU (iGPU). The reality of loading models across these two will almost certainly result it performance that is closer to running on the iGPU alone. So it'll be disappointingly slow.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Second, you REALLY want everything to fit 100% in VRAM. That's model and context (kv-cache). Otherwise you'll again see MASSIVE performance hits. And the context size requirements will vary depending on your use case, but I've so far found anything below 16K to be unusable for CLI and programming tools.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Smaller local models can work pretty well in a 16GB VRAM window with a moderate context. Just to give you an idea, this is Gemma4_E4B_Q4_K_M (relevant numbers from ollama):</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">parameters: 8.0B (not really 4B...related to their layered architecture)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">max effective context length: 131072<br>My Ollama Parameters:<br> num_ctx 32768 (actual context length)<br> num_gpu 99 (forces it into VRAM)<br><div class="gmail_default">GPU VRAM Consumed: 10 GB GPU (need to leave 2GB for my Win 11).<br></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">I can get similar numbers with Qwen3.5_A3B_Q4_K_M with a num_ctx of 65536, though token/sec drops 25'ish% (9.8b vs. 8.0b "real" parameters).</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Point is that these are two top-tier local models that you can fit very comfortably into a 16GB card like a 5060 Ti 16gb for < $ 600. And you can expect usable speeds (maybe 10-15% slower than mine just due to a narrower memory bus). You can push context sizes and still be fine. You may even be able to venture into the 12b-14b class of models. But 70b is not in the picture. And if you're willing and able to splurge on both cash ($1000) and power (at least 750w PSU) budget, the 5070 Ti 16gb will probably double your inference speeds for a 70% price bump.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">But even with that, performance won't touch a frontier model either in speed or accuracy. And depending on your usage levels, the $20/mo is far cheaper in the long run. If you have privacy concerns, then local is certainly a viable option to pursue. I'm having fun learning and will probably keep at least one model running for specific use-cases. But it's not a thing I'd recommend to anyone not on a CS-specific mailing list. ;)</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 21, 2026 at 9:07\u202fAM Lewis Wood via NFBCS <<a href="mailto:nfbcs@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs@nfbnet.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">WOW, You guys make my proposed little purchase of a 16gb nvidia card very small. 128gb are very expensive in the very least. I refuse to go above $1,000.00.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I currently have 32gb ddr Windows Lenova computer with a 4gb nvidia t1000 card.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I figured adding a 166gb nvidia card would give me 20gb of vram total.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I may not be able to run the very 70b models, but I think the smaller should do for 20gb vram and 32gb ddr ram.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I am thinking it will run most, I can always offshore some larger tasks to online providers (clawd or co-pilot).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I am just a newbie so any advise is quite welcome.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Lewis Wood<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> NFBCS <<a href="mailto:nfbcs-bounces@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Elijah Massey via NFBCS<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2026 3:04 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nfbcs@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs@nfbnet.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Elijah Massey <<a href="mailto:emassey0135@gmail.com" target="_blank">emassey0135@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NFBCS] Local AI<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I tried running local LLMs for a while on my Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 mini PC with 32 GB of RAM, on Arch Linux with Ollama. It was very slow at first until I got the Ollama Vulkan backend working and it started using the iGMU, and then it became pretty fast (at least 20 or 30 tokens per second I think). I was using 13B models mostly because that's what fit in my 32 GB of RAM. I did not need to increase my VRAM for it to be fast like this and it was set to 4 GB by default, although I heard there is a mechanism for dynamically increasing RAM that the iGPU can access somehow. However, there were definitely limitations compared to the cloud models. I noticed that the context window on the local models I tried was always shorter so it would have trouble remembering earlier messages in the conversation, and the cloud models just often created better responses and better did what I asked. I think it would be better if I have more RAM so I could run 70b models or larger. By the way, if you want to run local LLMs, I think an Apple Silicon Mac with a lot of RAM would be a great option, because of their unified memory. The GPU and NPU can access all of the RAM which is very good for local AI. Also, I would get the Max chips over the Pro can they have double the GPU cores and support higher RAM. I'm waiting for the M6 Max MacBook Pro/Ultra to come out later this year and then I'll probably get that.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">On May 21, 2026, at 02:02, Ty Littlefield via NFBCS <<a href="mailto:nfbcs@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs@nfbnet.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">\ufeff</span> <u></u><u></u></p><p>I agree with this. I bought a data center quality GPU for fun and testing. It's a referb, and I have 128 gb ram and I'm running everything off of em.2 drives. Even with that much ram, context windows don't last as long as the fronteer models. I suspect that the fronteer models are cramming everything into vector db type data storage services and using something to prefetch data when needed, but I could be very wrong there.<u></u><u></u></p><p>Just in raw performance, I got a lot of this stuff cheap and on sale. It would cost probably 3x the amount if not more right now. You need a minimum of 64 gb ram, and that's on the low end.<u></u><u></u></p><p><u></u> <u></u></p><p>It's worth doing, but you might do better at these current prices buying a beefed up Mac server vs trying to build your own system.<u></u><u></u></p><p><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">On 5/20/2026 11:35 PM, Paul York via NFBCS wrote:<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">I've been knee deep in local llm setup for the better part of the last two weeks. To give you perspective on my hardware, I'm playing with two moderately beefy "consumer" machines: a Windows 11-based Ultra 7, 64GB RAM, RTX 4070 w/ 12GB VRAM and a linux-based Ryzen AI 9 HX370 mini pc with 64GB RAM (both bought before prices went bonkers thankfully).<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">TLDR: I'm keeping my Claude and Gemini subscriptions.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">I think a longer discussion will hinge on what you want to do with it. Are you programming? Running OpenClaw/agentic stuff? Just chatting? Creating documents and presentations? Doing NotebookLM kind of things? Because here's the deal. After a LOT of tweaking, I'm getting:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">around 25 tokens per second output on my iGPU (Ryzen) using some pretty high quality models (Qwen 3.6 35b and Gemma 4 26b) by pushing the VRAM up to 48GB.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">anywhere between 65 and 95 tokens per second output on my RTX GPU using much lower quality models (Qwen 3.5 9b and Gemma 4 4b).<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">In both cases, if I don't take steps to optimize the model such that it stays 100% in VRAM, it slows to an entirely unusable rate.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">UP FRONT WARNING--I'm a noob with this, so take my explanation with a grain of salt.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">What does that actually mean? Well especially if you use a "reasoning" model like Qwen, then a simple query response (like "tell me a funny dad joke") can take up to a minute to respond. This is because approximately every word of every "thought" is an output token. It "talks to itself" until if decides it has found a reasonable answer. And it adds up quick. Here are some basic results for this exact query on all 4 models / hardware:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Qwen on RTX 4070: required 1200 tokens and 18 seconds to respond<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Gemma on RTX 4070: required 300 tokens and 3.5 seconds to respond<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Qwen on iGPU: required 630 tokens and 23 seconds to respond<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Gemma on iGPU: required 450 tokens and took 18 seconds to respond<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Again that's moderately beefy hardware and a lot of tweaking. But I could also do far better if I accepted much dumber models. Which may be just find for basic agentic work. But much less good for coding or reasoned synthesis. And the "smartest" model took 23 seconds to reason through a dad joke. 7 seconds just to figure out how to respond to "hello". Working on truly complex reasoning can take a bathroom+coffee break to give you back results.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Note too that this doesn't take into account context size and context caching. Context is the LLM's active memory. Models have maximums (I think they are tuned for these sizes). But in most cases you'll likely have to accept something lower. However, to be even moderately useful for much of anything, you can't go terribly low. Coding tools and agentic tools just blow up if they can't remember things from one thought to the next.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">The numbers I'm getting on the RTX are decent. Almost usable. BUT the context sizes to achieve that make it basically unusable for the kind of work I want to do. If I bump up the context window to a usable level with these models, I leak out into RAM (far slower than VRAM) and my performance tanks to unusable levels (like < 5-10 tps...at least 80-90% or more slower).<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">The iGPU with huge VRAM is slower than the dedicated GPU, but because I can crank up the context window, they actually become usable for what I want to use them for. However...speed. Claude Sonnet or Gemini Flash are easily 10x faster at everything. And more like 20x-30x faster for most reasoning work. So at some point it's a question of how much you value your time.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">I will be using local models for some basic stuff, I think. I'm starting down a personal knowledge management path with AnythingLLM or something similar. I think it'll pair perfectly with this. And I'll likely find more ways to leverage it. But I won't be abandoning the big boys any time soon.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">And sadly, although your Ultra 7 w/ 32GB RAM is an awesome PC, I fear your experience with local llms for anything other than experimentation and learning will prove frustratingly slow. And with prices the way they are right now, getting your PC spec'd to perform moderately well will certainly cost around the same as a full year of one of the "ultimate" plans.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Hope this was helpful. And that I didn't show my ignorance too badly.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt">Paul York<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, May 20, 2026 at 11:35<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u202f</span>PM Lewis Wood via NFBCS <<a href="mailto:nfbcs@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs@nfbnet.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I am currently learning as well.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I am now doing Ollama playlist lessons #2 currently.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvsHpqLkpw0fIT-WbjY-xBRxTftjwiTLB" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvsHpqLkpw0fIT-WbjY-xBRxTftjwiTLB</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I did my initial research on Lm Studio before I learned about Ollama CLI</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">This was my first Lm Studio and it was an excellent one regarding resources, models, agents, etc. Even discussed how to load partial in differing areas gpu and ddr.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UngVdAsQEiU" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UngVdAsQEiU</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">You can search youtube \u201clm studio\u201d</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Lewis Wood</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> NFBCS <<a href="mailto:nfbcs-bounces@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Orozco via NFBCS<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2026 10:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <<a href="mailto:nfbcs@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">nfbcs@nfbnet.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Joe Orozco <<a href="mailto:jsorozco@gmail.com" target="_blank">jsorozco@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [NFBCS] Local AI</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hello,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">With Google following in Claude\u2019s footsteps in terms of usage restrictions, can anyone speak to their experience using local LLM options? I\u2019m looking at Jemma 4 and trying to understand how accessible this route might be with JAWS on Windows.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I\u2019m on a fairly decent machine: 32 GB RAM, Ultra 7 processor, 4 TB SSD. I see they\u2019re recommending GPU for some of the more robust models, but I want to think most of what I\u2019m doing shouldn\u2019t require gaming machine specs. If you beg to differ though, let me know.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">If anyone can speak to Jemma alternatives, I\u2019d also be interested. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ll suspend my subscriptions, but with these usage limitations feeling like the new standard, I want to spread my usage a little so that I don\u2019t feel like I need to be hitting the top subscriptions just to get more mileage out of the five-hour increments.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thanks in advance for any tips,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Joe</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">--</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Joe Orozco: Your Message, My Mission</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="https://joeorozco.com/services/" target="_blank">https://joeorozco.com/services/</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>NFBCS mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NFBCS@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">NFBCS@nfbnet.org</a><br><a href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org" target="_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org</a><br>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:<br><a href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/paul%40yorkfamily.com" target="_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/paul%40yorkfamily.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>NFBCS mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="mailto:NFBCS@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">NFBCS@nfbnet.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org" target="_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com" target="_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com</a><u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><p><strong><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Ty Littlefield (he/him/his)</span></strong><u></u><u></u></p><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://tysdomain.com" target="_blank">My Website</a>| <u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/ty-lerlittlefield/" target="_blank">Linkedin</a>|<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://github.com/tlfdev" target="_blank">Github</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>NFBCS mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NFBCS@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">NFBCS@nfbnet.org</a><br><a href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org" target="_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org</a><br>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NFBCS:<br><a href="http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/emassey0135%40gmail.com" target="_blank">http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/emassey0135%40gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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