[Nfbf-l] Amtrak

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sat Jun 13 22:47:23 UTC 2009 

Kirk,
    The lengthy explanation was not necessarily directed to you; rather, to 
everyone who might read my comments, whether on this list or not. Keep in 
mind that our list archives are available for anyone to view who has access 
to the internet. Furthermore, as my message stated, I was hoping our leaders 
would realize that, as a civil rights organization, we have the 
responsibility to get the facts about alleged discriminatory practices and 
not minimize or rationalize them because it didn't happen to them or because 
of their personal feelings about the person who reports them.

Fraternally,
Marion Gwizdala



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak


> Marion, as far as your reply, I could have  done without the fact sheet 
> sent my way on our civil liberty's and equal rights, as I, too, have read 
> these. In reference to the issue, You have and are doing a fine job with 
> all that you do on behalf of the blind. I was not trying by any stretch of 
> the imagination to make slight of this matter, I just thought their were 
> bigger fish to fry for our cause and I didn't here any comments from am 
> track until your response. Now, after saying that, I send a rertraction 
> out to all that read it! Your friend in the cause, Kirk
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>
>
>> Kirk,
>>    With all due respect, I disagree with the comment that "too much is 
>> being made of this"! I am also very disappointed that Holly's concerns 
>> are being discounted by our leadership, especially when she has the 
>> physical evidence of such a practice. We are, first of all, a civil 
>> rights organization. Why is our leadership unwilling to at least look 
>> into the possibility that Amtrak violated one of our members civil 
>> rights, choosing to discount the discrimination?
>>    I contacted Amtrak and spoke with a Customer Service Representative 
>> who identified himself as Manne. I was told that it is Amtrak's policy to 
>> place such a sign identifying blind and visually impaired patrons so that 
>> they "know who needs help"! I specifically asked if the person has a 
>> choice as to whether or not such a placard is placed at their seat and I 
>> was told that the person is neither asked nor has a choice.
>>    As to why some did not have such a placard while others did, perhaps 
>> it is because some did not have anything that would identify them as a 
>> blind person, e.g., a white cane or guide dog.
>>    The further question may be if such a practice is discriminatory. As 
>> the President of the National Association of Guide Dog Users, I am 
>> frequently asked to intervene in incidents in which discrimination is 
>> alleged. Discrimination is defined as "differential treatment based upon 
>> a characteristic". The Americans with Disabilities Act defines three 
>> types of discrimination:
>>
>> 1. Denial of Benefit;
>> 2. Unequal Benefit; and
>> 3. Separate Benefit.
>>
>> Placing a sign over someone's seat alerting others to one's disability 
>> may be viewed as an "unequal benefit", since not everyone has such a sign 
>> describing to others specific characteristics. One way I frequently use 
>> to ascertain whether a practice is discriminatory and to describe to 
>> others what may be discriminatory is to ask, "If this were done based 
>> upon race or ethnic origin, would it be considered discriminatory?" So, I 
>> will ask each of you, "If a sign were placed over someone's seat stating 
>> that the person sitting there is black, would this be discriminatory?
>>    Section 501(d) of the ADA also states
>>
>> "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to require an individual with a 
>> disability to accept an accommodation, aid, service, opportunity, or 
>> benefit which such individual chooses not to accept."
>>
>>
>> Since the individual does not have the right to refuse this service, it 
>> could also be argued that this lack of choice to be identified publicly 
>> as an individual who is blind is a violation of the ADA.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>
>>
>>> Judith, My thoughts are that I think there is too much vbeing made of 
>>> this subject, but like yourself, it is just one man's opinion. Your 
>>> friend in the cause, Kirk
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Judith Hamilton" <jrhamilton51 at earthlink.net>
>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:12 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>
>>>
>>>> Just my 2 cent input, but the only thing that I noticed was a white 
>>>> paper
>>>> tag that I knocked off the rack when I was getting my bag to depart at 
>>>> the
>>>> Lakeland station and all it said was "JAX" for Jacksonville.  The 
>>>> passenger
>>>> in the seat next to mine was going to Jacksonville and she was just a
>>>> traveller like everyone else on the train.  I think she got on in Miami
>>>> where the train started.
>>>> Judy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> [Original Message]
>>>>> From: Dan Hicks <danjhicks at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: NFB of Florida Listserv <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: 6/11/2009 10:03:25 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>
>>>>> In a word, nope. There was a little sign above our seat. It was white 
>>>>> and
>>>>> said something, probably about our destination, but I really don't
>>>> remember.
>>>>> I am sure it did not say anything strange like "VI DFB Keep In Sight."
>>>> And
>>>>> the same sign was above Gloria's and my seats and  those of others who
>>>> were
>>>>> not with our group. I am sure that nobody followed me from car to car. 
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't think they have the staff to do that, unless you happen to 
>>>>> resemble
>>>> a
>>>>> wanted criminal or something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>> "If you are going to walk on thin ice,
>>>>>  you might as well dance."
>>>>>                         - Inuit Proverb
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Holly" <hbeanie at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Did anyone notice that while riding Amtrak, there was a green label
>>>> placed
>>>>> > above the seat in which read, "VI DFB Keep In Sight"
>>>>> > When students or myself went from car to car we were followed by one 
>>>>> > of
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > employees. Did this happen to you?
>>>>> > Holly
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -- 
>>>>> > "God gives you 86,400 seconds in a day. Take one to say Thank You."
>>>>> > Walter A. Ward
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>> > Nfbf-l:
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>>>> m
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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