[Nfbf-l] Amtrak
Marion & Martin
swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sun Jun 14 19:12:29 UTC 2009
Kirk,
The comment about underlying feeling was not directed at you!
Fraternally,
Marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
> Marion,
> Hmm! I didn't realize there was any underlying feelings involved here. I
> was just trying to say, prior to your learned response from Am Track,
> which is a critical part of my comments, that we have so much more to
> resolve in our equality debate. I retracted my remarks after your
> learned comments were jsent out! As far as leaders Marion, I believe we
> need to reach out in a more educational and friendly manner to our
> sighted community to open there eyes to our plight and as we do this
> interaction they will realize why we feel like we do and why we need laws
> changed before we go right down their throats all the time! As a Sighted
> person for 42 years of sight I have been fortunate enough to have been on
> both sides of the fence and know what and how there side feels about us,
> Whether we like it or not. We do act differently than the sighted world ,
> as there vision can compare the pedestrians walking about and us among
> them. andThis makes us quite obvious among them that we are blinded for
> sure. If this offends anyone of us, well then I am truly sorry, but it is
> the reality of our lives! So, perhaps we could ttry to make them to
> understand us by starting to participate in our sighted communities
> activities to help them see us more with there brains rather than there
> vision!!! Marion, this is where I feel we are failing the most! If we
> educated them by mixing with them more, perhaps they would work more
> earnestly to see that our needs are implemented thru our Laws. Since I
> started advocating for the blind in Orlando, I have built a repore with
> all of our sighted Commissioners one on one, both of our Mayors and there
> staffs, even to the point of having them to my home to discuss with
> other blind leaders here to here our side and get a better understanding
> of our ability's and intellegence I have also included business leaders,
> Teachers and children, ETC. I have also reached out to our future by
> creating a meet the blind festive stand for the kids to try our short
> obstacle course with an adjustable white cane and blinders with the
> cooperation of our city officials for which we had candy for them at the
> end, we had a member have them try to trick them with the change we had
> them choose and of course he always ggot it right! We had a couple of our
> guide dog users there to show them the proper way to approach a person
> with one. They came to us aprehencive and shy and once we intermingled
> with them, joked with them, and taught them how we are just like them
> with a disability, they ran away giggling and running with their white and
> blue balloons and more in tune with the fact the we are not white eyed
> monsters coming out of the back alleys but simply people. My belief is
> that these kids will grow up and become our next politicians, lawmakers,
> attorneys, ETC. When they do and they recieve a law in our favor come
> across their desk they will remenice of the time the old blind man had
> magic in his hands by knowing all the coins! have been able to lighten
> there reception of me and what I convey to all of them. Not by threat, but
> by social skills and letting them all know that I understand how they feel
> but once they can understand what our needs are and that we are not any
> different than they in most cases, they seem to be more rrelaxed and
> responsivve to work with us for the change for us! For us to ask
> assistance for one minute and then demanding to be given our independence
> the next, is quite confusing to the sighted community which can see us as
> angry demanding people. I don't feel that this is the image we want them
> to feel about us, do You? I feel this is definitely not the way to change
> the sighted community's mind about usand gain their support. As far as
> Hollyis concerned, I like her and her father, Jerry, very much! They
> are a true asset to the NFBFL and our Orlando community. I also, respect
> your work Marion, and know you believe in your approach and that is good.
> As if anyone advocates for something they are not truly heartfelt about,
> then nothing but inaffective results and conditions will appear! I hope
> these comments don't give you and many more leaders in the NFbFL more
> reason to get upset with my feelings over my belief that we can and
> should speak out whether it is respected or appreciaited or not! I do
> apologize for the long, and at times rambling response! Your friend in the
> cause, KH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>
>
>> Kirk,
>> The lengthy explanation was not necessarily directed to you; rather,
>> to everyone who might read my comments, whether on this list or not. Keep
>> in mind that our list archives are available for anyone to view who has
>> access to the internet. Furthermore, as my message stated, I was hoping
>> our leaders would realize that, as a civil rights organization, we have
>> the responsibility to get the facts about alleged discriminatory
>> practices and not minimize or rationalize them because it didn't happen
>> to them or because of their personal feelings about the person who
>> reports them.
>>
>> Fraternally,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>
>>
>>> Marion, as far as your reply, I could have done without the fact sheet
>>> sent my way on our civil liberty's and equal rights, as I, too, have
>>> read these. In reference to the issue, You have and are doing a fine job
>>> with all that you do on behalf of the blind. I was not trying by any
>>> stretch of the imagination to make slight of this matter, I just thought
>>> their were bigger fish to fry for our cause and I didn't here any
>>> comments from am track until your response. Now, after saying that, I
>>> send a rertraction out to all that read it! Your friend in the cause,
>>> Kirk
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kirk,
>>>> With all due respect, I disagree with the comment that "too much is
>>>> being made of this"! I am also very disappointed that Holly's concerns
>>>> are being discounted by our leadership, especially when she has the
>>>> physical evidence of such a practice. We are, first of all, a civil
>>>> rights organization. Why is our leadership unwilling to at least look
>>>> into the possibility that Amtrak violated one of our members civil
>>>> rights, choosing to discount the discrimination?
>>>> I contacted Amtrak and spoke with a Customer Service Representative
>>>> who identified himself as Manne. I was told that it is Amtrak's policy
>>>> to place such a sign identifying blind and visually impaired patrons so
>>>> that they "know who needs help"! I specifically asked if the person has
>>>> a choice as to whether or not such a placard is placed at their seat
>>>> and I was told that the person is neither asked nor has a choice.
>>>> As to why some did not have such a placard while others did, perhaps
>>>> it is because some did not have anything that would identify them as a
>>>> blind person, e.g., a white cane or guide dog.
>>>> The further question may be if such a practice is discriminatory. As
>>>> the President of the National Association of Guide Dog Users, I am
>>>> frequently asked to intervene in incidents in which discrimination is
>>>> alleged. Discrimination is defined as "differential treatment based
>>>> upon a characteristic". The Americans with Disabilities Act defines
>>>> three types of discrimination:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Denial of Benefit;
>>>> 2. Unequal Benefit; and
>>>> 3. Separate Benefit.
>>>>
>>>> Placing a sign over someone's seat alerting others to one's disability
>>>> may be viewed as an "unequal benefit", since not everyone has such a
>>>> sign describing to others specific characteristics. One way I
>>>> frequently use to ascertain whether a practice is discriminatory and to
>>>> describe to others what may be discriminatory is to ask, "If this were
>>>> done based upon race or ethnic origin, would it be considered
>>>> discriminatory?" So, I will ask each of you, "If a sign were placed
>>>> over someone's seat stating that the person sitting there is black,
>>>> would this be discriminatory?
>>>> Section 501(d) of the ADA also states
>>>>
>>>> "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to require an individual with a
>>>> disability to accept an accommodation, aid, service, opportunity, or
>>>> benefit which such individual chooses not to accept."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since the individual does not have the right to refuse this service, it
>>>> could also be argued that this lack of choice to be identified publicly
>>>> as an individual who is blind is a violation of the ADA.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Judith, My thoughts are that I think there is too much vbeing made of
>>>>> this subject, but like yourself, it is just one man's opinion. Your
>>>>> friend in the cause, Kirk
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Judith Hamilton" <jrhamilton51 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:12 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my 2 cent input, but the only thing that I noticed was a white
>>>>>> paper
>>>>>> tag that I knocked off the rack when I was getting my bag to depart
>>>>>> at the
>>>>>> Lakeland station and all it said was "JAX" for Jacksonville. The
>>>>>> passenger
>>>>>> in the seat next to mine was going to Jacksonville and she was just a
>>>>>> traveller like everyone else on the train. I think she got on in
>>>>>> Miami
>>>>>> where the train started.
>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Original Message]
>>>>>>> From: Dan Hicks <danjhicks at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> To: NFB of Florida Listserv <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Date: 6/11/2009 10:03:25 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a word, nope. There was a little sign above our seat. It was
>>>>>>> white and
>>>>>>> said something, probably about our destination, but I really don't
>>>>>> remember.
>>>>>>> I am sure it did not say anything strange like "VI DFB Keep In
>>>>>>> Sight."
>>>>>> And
>>>>>>> the same sign was above Gloria's and my seats and those of others
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> not with our group. I am sure that nobody followed me from car to
>>>>>>> car. I
>>>>>>> don't think they have the staff to do that, unless you happen to
>>>>>>> resemble
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> wanted criminal or something.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "If you are going to walk on thin ice,
>>>>>>> you might as well dance."
>>>>>>> - Inuit Proverb
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Holly" <hbeanie at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:19 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Did anyone notice that while riding Amtrak, there was a green
>>>>>>> > label
>>>>>> placed
>>>>>>> > above the seat in which read, "VI DFB Keep In Sight"
>>>>>>> > When students or myself went from car to car we were followed by
>>>>>>> > one of
>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>> > employees. Did this happen to you?
>>>>>>> > Holly
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > "God gives you 86,400 seconds in a day. Take one to say Thank
>>>>>>> > You."
>>>>>>> > Walter A. Ward
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Nfbf-l mailing list
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbf-l_nfbnet.org/danjhicks%40yahoo.co
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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