[Nfbf-l] [Flagdu] Fw: May I ask a question.
Patricia A. Lipovsky
plipovsky at cfl.rr.com
Mon Nov 30 13:46:22 UTC 2009
Hi guys.
I will be happy to forward David's message on to Charles.
----- Original Message -----
From: "davidw" <dwermuth1 at earthlink.net>
To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] [Flagdu] Fw: May I ask a question.
> Marion,
>
> Yes I seen where the post was forwarded from and I sent Charles a copy as
> well.
>
> Thanks for checking. Have a Great Day.
>
> David Wermuth
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 3:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] [Flagdu] Fw: May I ask a question.
>
>
>> David,
>> Did you notice that the message writer and the message sender were not
>> one and the same? I hope your message gets to the writer! At least it is
>> getting to some of those who can help make a difference, perhaps altering
>> their perceptions. I, too, saw this message as bureaucratic rhetoric! It
>> takes considerable energy and motivation to change perceptions.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "davidw" <dwermuth1 at earthlink.net>
>> To: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 5:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Flagdu] Fw: [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>
>>
>>> First of all Thanks for your opinion Charles. and thanks for your
>>> service to the blind community over your 17 year tenure.
>>>
>>> OK, a few opinions you have that you have expressed that I have to
>>> respectfully disagree with.
>>>
>>> First of all I have heard while working as a "insider" in the past is
>>> that I have heard many times, "I have 15 years experience, 12 yrs, 17
>>> yrs..."
>>>
>>> All that means to most of the blind -low vision consumers is that most
>>> if not all of the employees should have been fired years ago. and while
>>> I have worked as most of the job titles: VRT, ILS, Child and Family and
>>> sat on many boards myselfFloridas Division of the Blind needs to clean
>>> house. You say you have worked in the field of BVI for 17 years we'll
>>> just a little hint, we bvi people don't get our sight back after five
>>> and on weekends. So I am asking who has more experience? I have 19
>>> years of blind experience, 24 hours a day includeing holidays, weekends.
>>>
>>> I'm glad that you made the effort to go thru immersion for 3 weeks under
>>> blindfold. Employees of the prior Texas Commission for the Blind go
>>> thru immersion for thirty days as new employees. and I am also
>>> encouraged that you encouraged your new sighted employees to make a
>>> effort to work on learning or at the very least trying to understand the
>>> everyday struggles of living b-vi. That makes me feel all warm and
>>> fuzzy inside.
>>>
>>> I've like I said in previous post's observe and communicate with
>>> consumers of the blind community and DBS before I make my comments. and
>>> I'll say it again "DBS needs to change it's philosophy to better serve
>>> the BVI in Florida."
>>>
>>> There are ways to do this and number 1 is to start employing B-VI
>>> person's into DBS, unless the philosophy from DBS is that sighted people
>>> can do it better? and if that is the opinion of DBS then the whole
>>> slate of employees serving the B-VI should be cleaned or then what is
>>> the use of even giving you all pay checks at the expense of our tax
>>> dollars.
>>>
>>> On the topic of scholarships: are you kidding me? Those student's
>>> worked their rear ends off to earn them and I know what it takes as
>>> during my educational learning from the University of Washington I
>>> earned a few myself. They are a mark of hard work and excellence
>>> giving to them for all their hard work. If they want to spend it on
>>> more equipment, food to have enough energy to get to school the next
>>> day, clothes... then so be it. We as tax payers do not ask state
>>> employees to return the money it cost's to feed a lunch to a agency
>>> during a training class, pay back the many Holidays, accumidated sick
>>> leave, vacation, and all the other perks.
>>>
>>> The problem with most state employee's is after a short time after
>>> tenure they forget where the money is coming from (tax payers) and
>>> forget who they are working for. The more money they don't spend and
>>> yes I know about the Federal payback ratio but they start thinking about
>>> how nice their Christmas party can be and all along pat each other on
>>> the back saying, "isn't it nice we are helping those blind-low vision
>>> people"
>>>
>>> Thank You again for your long thought out opinions and it sounds like a
>>> couple blanket statements other state rehabilitation offices send out
>>> that comes directly from the top. Hmm
>>>
>>> Enough already,
>>>
>>> David Wermuth
>>> Brooksville, FL
>>> dwermuth1 at earthlink.net
>>>
>>> P.S Everyone have a nice day, I know I will.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Patricia A. Lipovsky" <plipovsky at cfl.rr.com>
>>> To: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:59 PM
>>> Subject: [Flagdu] Fw: [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "Charles Randall" <randybns at earthlink.net>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:06 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have worked at the O&A Center for 17 years. I can tell you that we
>>>> did not
>>>> serve that many clients during the switch to NFB concepts. We had
>>>> clients
>>>> who did not wish to use the sleep shades. Because of the slow down due
>>>> to
>>>> having a set period of time, six to nine months in the general program,
>>>> clients had ato wait a long period for service. Just because one's
>>>> philosophy was being implemented doesn't mean service was better. The
>>>> use of
>>>> sleep shades can be a very useful tool and should be both an option and
>>>> a
>>>> suggestion to certain clients. However, it is not always necessary.
>>>> Refusing
>>>> to offer such a tool is as unfortunate as forcing it on clients. As an
>>>> employee at the Center, I can tell you that we tried to be sure that
>>>> the
>>>> customer received quality training and recommended additional
>>>> instruction
>>>> when needed. In regards to being a revolving door, it is my opinion
>>>> that if
>>>> a client came back to the Center not for new training, it was
>>>> unfortunately
>>>> because a councelor in the field didn't know what to do with the client
>>>> and
>>>> in some cases, wasn't assisting with job development. I appreciate
>>>> learning
>>>> about different methods for teaching blindness skills and in 2004, I
>>>> spent
>>>> three weeks at the Louisianna Center for the Blind in what they call an
>>>> immersion. What I learned best was that what they do is what we do at
>>>> the
>>>> Daytona Center. Good people , concerned about and respectful of the
>>>> customers, teaching skills for travel, daily living and technology. One
>>>> of
>>>> the instructors I enjoyed getting to know, was very strong in his NFB
>>>> philosophy, he felt it was the best way to work, but he was an
>>>> open-minded
>>>> person who was willing to dialog and show respect to people with other
>>>> ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding scholarships, I worked with a woman who had a number of
>>>> scholarships. DBS didn't as a result pay for her school but they did
>>>> provide
>>>> her with equipment she needed to accomplish her goals. Remember, that
>>>> the
>>>> pot is not unending and those scholarships should be used first
>>>> allowing
>>>> funds to be used for those clients not so fortunate. In the case
>>>> mentioned
>>>> where the client was asked to pay the money to the agency. I don't know
>>>> for
>>>> sure what happened but I can speculate. Unfortunately, some offices
>>>> aren't
>>>> run as well as they should be. They should not have paid the money to
>>>> DBS
>>>> but rather used it for further education knowing that DBS would not
>>>> have a
>>>> requirement to give additional funds until the scholarship was used.
>>>>
>>>> During Craig's administration, he made some very useful contributions.
>>>> Providing the opportunity for clients and training facilities to access
>>>> more
>>>> technology was one I felt was long overdue. However, in a speech he
>>>> made,
>>>> later published in the Braille Monitor, he made it appear that blind
>>>> rehab
>>>> in Florida was totally underserved until his changes and the things he
>>>> said
>>>> about the Daytona Center were, shall we say, inaccurate.
>>>>
>>>> It continues to be the responsibility of the consumer groups and the
>>>> customers to make their voices heard and have an influence on the
>>>> Division
>>>> of Blind Services. And all due respect to one of my colleagues, and no
>>>> besmirching of his integrity, in my opinion, no employee of the agency
>>>> should serve on the Rehab Council. It is not essential that all
>>>> employees of
>>>> DBS be blind to ably provide good service, as we gain new employees who
>>>> have
>>>> no background in the blindness field, they need to be encouraged to
>>>> educate
>>>> themselves in order to understand their customers and the community
>>>> around
>>>> themselves in order to provide quality services, not just manage
>>>> paperwork.
>>>> Such education should involve not just course work but taking part in
>>>> activities alongside their customers and the consumer groups.
>>>>
>>>> Yes it is understood that I am an insider; I am also an officer in my
>>>> local
>>>> chapter of the FCB. What is more important to me is my responsibility
>>>> to
>>>> express what I feel is a more accurate picture of how some matters have
>>>> been
>>>> dealt with between clients and the Division. I am not a spokesman for
>>>> the
>>>> agency, only one man with an opinion. I appreciate the chance these
>>>> channels
>>>> offer to interact with differing ideas. May I continue to learn from
>>>> those I
>>>> don't always agree with. As iron sharpens iron,
>>>> so one man sharpens another. Proverbs 27-17 NIV.
>>>>
>>>> Charles "Randy" Randall
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 12:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Fw: [Flagdu] [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 4:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Flagdu] [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I appreciate your thoughtful observations David and I still say that as
>>>>>an
>>>>>organization, one of the things we can do is get NAC out of Florida. I
>>>>>do
>>>>>not understand the need of Florida agencies to be accredited by NAC. I
>>>>>then
>>>>
>>>>>think that if we know of individual cases of people whose cases are not
>>>>>being handled well, we work on them on a chapter-by-chapter basis and
>>>>>involve others in the state affiliate if need be. I hate to see
>>>>>Florids'd
>>>>>rehab system slip back into the dark ages. Again, just my thoughts!
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "davidw" <dwermuth1 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 3:41 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Flagdu] [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Sherri,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have the personality and knowledge to sometimes kick back and
>>>>>> observe
>>>>>> before putting myself in unknowledgeable situations. The reason I ask
>>>>>> these questions is to learn and figure out ways to positively asisst
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the areas that might be takeing a wrong way. We all know that
>>>>>> sometimes
>>>>>> people blind or not have issues with advocateing for themselves and
>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>> it is frustrateing at times but that is the way it is, and sometimes
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> end up with egg on our face but... I have sat and listened to
>>>>>> consumer's of DBS and heard some story's of how VRC's don't have time
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> fill out the ppw for O and M and they just say OK and fade away
>>>>>> sitting
>>>>>> in their homes because...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It disturbs me and yes I am done observeing, so I ask all of you what
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> next? We all know the rehabilitation system here in Florida isn't
>>>>>> working, so????
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>; "Florida
>>>>>> Association of
>>>>
>>>>>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 8:31 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Flagdu] [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David and list, I agree with most of what Marion says and was
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> going to answer in a similar way, but let me add that years ago,
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> serving as president of the National Federation of the Blind Greater
>>>>>>> Orlando Chapter and vice-president of the NFBF, I did advocate with
>>>>>>> local scholarship winners in Orlando when DBS insisted that because
>>>>>>> DBS
>>>>>>> helps them procure equipment and pay for school, the scholarship
>>>>>>> winner
>>>>>>> should return the scholarship from NFB-GOC to DBS. I was furious and
>>>>>>> went all the way to the top on that one. One person did give her
>>>>>>> winnings to DBS, but it was after much advice from me not to do so.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>
>>>>>>> was in the pre Craig Kiser era.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do believe that DBS was making many progressive strides when Craig
>>>>>>> Kiser was director. I am acquainted with their present director and
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> frankly surprised at the turn the O&A center in Daytona has taken. I
>>>>>>> believe that advocacy from NFBF for those seeking help from DBS is
>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>> more on an individual case-by-case basis rather than having some
>>>>>>> sort of
>>>>
>>>>>>> state-wide policy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have, however, participated in phone conferences with FAASB so
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> input is noted, though not necessarily acted upon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think we need to take into careful consideration our advocacy
>>>>>>> efforts. How much can we really advocate for the blind when several
>>>>>>> people are employed by DBS. This also spills over into
>>>>>>> transportation as
>>>>
>>>>>>> there are those who also work for transportation companies who serve
>>>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>> disabled in Florida.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would actually like to see NFB work to drive NAC out of Florida,
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> accreditation by this organization holds no validity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why should you joiner NFB? Primarily because if you want to change
>>>>>>> something about an organization--if you want to move it forward--
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> can only do so from the inside out. Putting forth negativity from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> outside-in only hurts that organization and minimizes your own view.
>>>>>>> Having been both more and less involved with NFB over the years, I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> found that my views are noted far more if I am working in the
>>>>>>> organization to change what it means to be blind, rather than just
>>>>>>> being
>>>>
>>>>>>> an outside observer. Whether I agree or disagree with policies, I
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> my choice is to do what I can to help the blind throughout Florida
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> this country and I can do that more effectively being part of NFB
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> by being out there on my own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts and I thank you for asking these questions.
>>>>>>> Sherri
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "FLAGDU List"
>>>>>>> <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:04 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Flagdu] [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>> The questions you ask are very valid ones! There was a time when
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>>> had a greater influence with the Division of Blind Services. During
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>> Kiser's administration, DBS was moving in a more positive
>>>>>>>> direction.
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>> is a very progressive thinker, understanding, living, and
>>>>>>>> implementing
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> NFB's philosophy, in spite of a great deal of opposition from those
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> content with the status quo. The Orientation & Adjustment center
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> blind in Daytona Beach began implementing NFB-style training,
>>>>>>>> including
>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> use of sleep shades, in an effort to close the revolving door of
>>>>>>>> rehabilitation that once and now, again, exists. His goal was to
>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>> excellent training once, not bits and pieces as consumers lose more
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> eyesight, returning to the O&A Center to improve their lacking
>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> should have been taught from the beginning. Unfortunately, Craig's
>>>>>>>> health
>>>>>>>> necessitated his retirement as the Director.
>>>>>>>> We now have a Director who cannot even use the word "blind", as
>>>>>>>> evidenced by her presentation at our last NFBF convention. Though
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>> seemed to indicate that she is turning to the NFB for direction and
>>>>>>>> support,
>>>>>>>> I believe these words are only political rhetoric. The status quo
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> returned to the O&A Center, taking two giant steps backward, and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Florida Association of Agencies Serving the Blind (FAASB) has more
>>>>>>>> influence and control over our lives as it
>>>>>>>> pertains to DBS than do we, the blind consumer! Florida has the
>>>>>>>> unfortunate distinction of having more NAC accreditted institutions
>>>>>>>> than any other state
>>>>>>>> and FAASB proports itself - and is accepted - to be the
>>>>>>>> authoritative
>>>>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>> on issues of blindness. This is no surprise, as the Director of the
>>>>>>>> Division of Blind Services is a former Director of a NAC
>>>>>>>> accreditted
>>>>>>>> institution - Lighthouse of Central Florida!
>>>>>>>> As for the NFBF's involvement in consumer advocacy, I am of the
>>>>>>>> opinion that this is one of our major roles! I also feel that too
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> are too close
>>>>>>>> to agency people to be effective consumer advocates. When crossing
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> lines from colleagues to friends, we diminish our capacity to be
>>>>>>>> effective consumer advocates and succumb to the pressures of those
>>>>>>>> doing the
>>>>>>>> pressuring! Our purpose is not to
>>>>>>>> be popular with the agencies, but to advance consumer rights of the
>>>>>>>> individual with the goal of helping consumers reach for and achieve
>>>>>>>> their highest potential!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "davidw" <dwermuth1 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Florida Association of Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 5:00 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbf-l] May I ask a question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First a little background on me. I've worked for the state of
>>>>>>>>> Texas
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> Washington in the Rehabilitation for the blind and moved to
>>>>>>>>> Florida
>>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>>> May. I am not asking these question's to cause waves or insult in
>>>>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>>>>> as I don't know the answers or how much the NFB has influence with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DBS
>>>>>>>>> here and I am just trying to understand. I have noticed that
>>>>>>>>> hopefully
>>>>>>>>> many people on this list just read the post's and for some reason
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> participate in the conversation's and I totally understand but
>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>> are a
>>>>>>>>> couple question's and comments:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Does the NFB of Florida meet with the DBS for (Division of
>>>>>>>>> Blind
>>>>>>>>> Services) in making decisions for the low vision-blind for
>>>>>>>>> employment
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> for their future goals?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In other words do you as leaders of the blind community stand up
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> rights for equal opportunity. I've sat at many meeting's
>>>>>>>>> negotiateing
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> (throwing my fist down a few times on occasion" for the right's of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> rehab act and the right of "choice"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Does the NFB of Florida demand that all VRC's (Vocational
>>>>>>>>> Rehabilitation Counselers have the professionalism to asisst their
>>>>>>>>> consumers in obtaining their goals?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I sat there at the leadership convention and heard at least three
>>>>>>>>> times to
>>>>>>>>> paraphase" when we getting a commission for the blind" and heard
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>> comment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And I only ask not to be insultive or arogant in any way I promise
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> for those whom are wondering where to turn when DBS trys and as
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>> most of the time intimidates them can they turn to the NFB of
>>>>>>>>> Florida
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've been to a lot of NFB and ACB meetings through out the USA and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> concerned that the majority of them have just been a lot of bull
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>> frankly butt-kissing their members to have numbers in their
>>>>>>>>> chapters.
>>>>>>>>> What makes you different and why should I join the NFB of Florida?
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> remember many people are reading this for leadership.
>>>>>>>>> Dave Wermuth
>>>>>>>>> A to Z Adaptive Aids
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Nfbf-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Nfbf-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> on.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> Flagdu:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Flagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> Flagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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