[nfbmi-talk] Revised Reflections on the Cost of ConsumerInvolvement

Mon Aug 30 21:43:20 UTC 2010

I certainly agree on all counts here Fred. As stated before you all did very 
well and Elizabeth did great work!!

To bad the highly paid CRC in MCB couldn't read the Rehab act as well as she 
and other volunteers did.

This goes to the level of scofflaism within MCB.

I sincerely hope that Elizabeth changes her major and becomes a CRC and then 
maybe someday she could actually become the MCB director if it last long 
enough for her to do so.

anyway I cannot say how impressed I've been with all on this fight.

Peace,

Joe
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Wurtzel" <f.wurtzel at comcast.net>
To: "'NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List'" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Revised Reflections on the Cost of 
ConsumerInvolvement

> Hi,
>
> Well, that is why we have an organization, so everything is not on the
> shoulders of 1 person.  It is understandable that you need to take a
> breather, right now.  We need you for the long haul and don't want you to
> burn out on 1 project or issue.
>
> If it means anything to you, you did a fantastic job on the colledg policy
> issue.  I know lots of people have already said the same thing.  There is 
> no
> problem if you wish to step back a little to gain perspective and get a
> breather.
>
> Keep the faith, as we old hippies say. (smile)
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Fred
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 4:01 PM
> To: NFB Michigan
> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Revised Reflections on the Cost of Consumer
> Involvement
>
>
> Hello Fred,
>
> Thanks for sharing your perspective on things. I guess I just wish I felt
> the same way as you because right now I just feel defeated. If there are
> others who wish to keep up the fight, then that is great, but at this 
> point
> in time, I am not sure if that is something that I can do.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>> From: f.wurtzel at comcast.net
>> To: nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:33:54 -0400
>> CC: pilarskij at charter.net; geri.taeckens at isahealthfund.org
>> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Revised Reflections on the Cost of Consumer
> Involvement
>>
>> Hi Elizabeth,
>>
>> I guess that I look at the whole policy compared to the Marquette 
>> version.
>> Believe me, I will not stop fighting to get rid of the DLEG form and to
> make
>> sure the policy is in conformity to the law in every part. My perspective
>> on the success is the way the tone and mostly the substance is far
> different
>> than where it started in Marquette. Simply compare the old preamble to 
>> the
>> new one. It is respectful and is not condescending and patronizing. If 
>> you
>> compare section to section, the story is similar.
>>
>> I do not think this policy is perfect. I just don't think perfection 
>> needs
>> to stop progress. The NFB proved that we can make a difference. Pat 
>> Cannon
>> did not want this policy. He argued against it. Geri and Jo Ann stuck 
>> with
>> it until it was better. They took a principled position. One remaining
>> major improvement is to fully put the IPE and the student/counselor
>> relationship as the primary deciding factor on all aspects of the plan.
> The
>> policy is vastly better for students with multiple disabilities, but is
>> still tilted against them. I would have liked a couple other improvements
>> like parity for out-of-state tuition for programs not offered in 
>> Michigan.
>> The DLEG form removed, a requirement that the counselors have conferences
>> with students under certain circumstances where the word should is there
>> instead of shall. This policy will be reviewed in a year. We will be at
>> the table with more experience with the policy. We are in this for the
> long
>> haul. I have great confidence in you and other students to help identify
>> tweeks where they need to be made. From this vantage point, if we keep up
>> our advocacy we will make the policy even better.
>>
>> Please don't quit pushing. Just because I think this is a victory, 
>> doesn't
>> mean you need to agree. I think we should always declare victory when we
>> have a positive influence. Remember the war is not over until we say it
> is.
>> This is a victory in a battle, not the whole war. The war will not end
>> until the Commission gets what a good agency is, what a positive
> philosophy
>> of blindness is, what quality rehabilitation is, what quality staff
> training
>> is and that the Coommission Board takes charge of the agency and manages
>> withese principles. This is like D-day. We still have to fight all the 
>> way
>> across Europe. We will prevail in our efforts, because we are right and
>> have 70 years of experience in creating quality rehabilitation.
>>
>> So the answer is that this a victory in a battle, not the whole war. We
>> will win the war, sooner or later, but we will win, because we can 
>> outlast
>> any bureaucracy ever created..
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth
>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:41 PM
>> To: NFB Michigan
>> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Revised Reflections on the Cost of Consumer
>> Involvement
>>
>>
>> Hello Fred,
>>
>> I think what you said was well written, but I am just wondering, how
> exactly
>> do you see our campaign for a consumer friendly college policy to be a
>> success? I guess I just don't see it the same when they have approved to
> use
>> the new DELEG Financial Needs form, a form that I wonder if they have 
>> even
>> seen before as part of the policy. Am I the only one who has concerns
> about
>> the use of this new form?
>>
>> As a college student, I would much rather pay a stupid college 
>> application
>> fee than be subjected to all the additional red tape that will be 
>> involved
>> with this new form. The students don't even have any control over when 
>> and
>> how this form gets filled out by the financial aid office, so what 
>> happens
>> to the student when they do not send the form back in time to meet the
>> deadlines imposed by the agency? Again, why should the student be harmed
> by
>> something that is essentially out of their control? I'm sorry, but I 
>> don't
>> see how this form benefits anyone but the agency.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Elizabeth
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> > On Behalf Of Fred Wurtzel
>> > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 4:22 PM
>> > To: 'Geri Taeckens'; 'Elizabeth'; luzenskis at michigan.gov;
>> > alissa161 at gmail.com; cannonp at michigan.gov; dcgorton601 at comcast.net;
>> > mohnked at hotmail.com; wild-rose at sbcglobal.net; furtond at michigan.gov;
>> > grace at menzelcoaching.com; debate912 at gmail.com; mpvi at intergate.com;
>> > heibeckc at michigan.gov; jbrown at mpas.org; pilarskij at charter.net;
>> > jonesl2 at michigan.gov; kisiell at michigan.gov; 'Larry Posont';
>> > laury-johnsons at michigan.gov; lovep at michigan.gov; 'Lydia Schuck';
>> > mcnealg at michigan.gov; mcvoys at michigan.gov; silveya at michigan.gov;
>> > smithd11 at michigan.gov; martzvir at msu.edu; whitee2 at michigan.gov;
>> > wilsond9 at michigan.gov; 'NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List'
>> > Cc: brlbumps at sbcglobal.net; 'Michigan Comm for the Blind Vision 20/20
>> List';
>> > 'John Scott'; margwolfe at usa.net
>> > Subject: [nfbmi-talk] Revised Reflections on the Cost of Consumer
>> > Involvement
>> >
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In the aftermath of a successful, yet painful and costly, pursuit of a
>> > consumer-friendly college policy campaign, I must reflect on the 
>> > process
>> and
>> > hope we have learned something. The cost of this process was high in
>> > monetary and human terms. It has alienated consumers, tarnished the
> image
>> > of a Commission Board member and called into serious question the
>> leadership
>> > of the Commission administration. Bullying, intimidation and attempts 
>> > to
>> > mislead did not in the end, prevail. Consumers got a quality policy, at
>> > what cost? We, the NFB of Michigan, will not refrain from our pursuit 
>> > of
>> > justice and fairness in the provision of quality services to blind
> people.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Why cannot our officials understand P.A. 260. It is plain English. The
>> > law, P.A. 260 creates a higher standard for MCB than the open meetings
>> law,
>> > alone. As you will read, below, the word "any" applies to all business
>> > created under the authority of the Board. The consumer friendly, common
>> > sense approach would be to defer to the most open means of conducting
>> > Commission business, possible. Why not? What outcome is worth creating
>> > hostility, mistrust and an air of secrecy and elitism. After all,
>> > ultimately, the public will become aware of the players and their
> tactics
>> > and honesty, eventually.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For instance, some of the outcomes of the process were, the college
> policy
>> > took an extra year to redo, plus the unfair and inexcusable trashing of
>> Mark
>> > Eagle as being ethically questionable, the search for bullet proof
>> skirting
>> > for meeting tables, security guards at Commission meetings. Were these
>> > wounds worth it? Why not let interested people participate, or at least
>> > observe? There did not seem to be a limit on the number of expensive
>> staff,
>> > yet, consumers, who could not even get lunch paid for were excluded. In
>> the
>> > end, consumers and courageous Commissioners had to correct the
>> > mean-spirited and anti-blind policy created by that limited group. I
> hope
>> > we have learned something.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Below is an excerpt from the Commission law and a Q and A provided by
> Joe
>> > Harcz through his tenacious digging for truth and justice with Director
>> > Cannon. You will read how Director Cannon either deliberately or out of
>> > ignorance of the law, mislead and inaccurately advised the
> Commissioners.
>> > Wouldn't it be simple to have a copy of the law at a Commission meeting
> to
>> > refer to?
>> >
>> > Clearly the Director is not reliable.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 393.365 Conducting business at public meeting; notice; availability of
>> > writings to
>> >
>> > public
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sec. 15.(1) The business which the commission or any committee 
>> > appointed
>> > under this
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > act may perform shall be conducted at a public meeting of the 
>> > commission
>> or
>> > committee
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > held in compliance with Act No. 267 of the Public Acts of 1976, being
>> > sections 15.261
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > to 15,275 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. Public notice of the time,
> date,
>> > and place
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > of the meeting shall be given in the manner required by Act No. 267 of
> the
>> > Public
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Acts of 1976.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > (2) A writing prepared, owned, used, in the possession of, or retained
> by
>> > the commission
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > in the performance of an official function shall be made available to
> the
>> > public
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > in compliance with Act No. 442 of the Public Acts of 1976, being
> sections
>> >
>> > 15.231
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > to 15.246 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > History: 1978, Act 260. Eff. Oct. 1, 1978.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Chair Pilarski asked Director Cannon to address the question of
>> > the OMA. Director Cannon responded that most of the internal groups
> within
>> > the Commission are open to all to attend and participate in, but there
> are
>> > committees that have designated representatives to participate and 
>> > speak
>> for
>> > each of their groups. Ms. Pilarski indicated that each of the
>> > representatives should be going back to their respective groups and
>> filling
>> > them in on the meeting. Director Cannon noted that meetings of the MCB
>> > Board are subject to the OMA since the Board is a public body under the
>> law.
>> > He added that other committees and groups within the Commission,
> including
>> > its Consumer Involvement Council (CIC) are not considered public bodies
>> and
>> > not required to be open meetings under the law. Sue Luzenski read a
>> > statement by Judge Andres Friedlis, the State Office of Administrative
>> > Hearings and Rules in response to an inquiry about the statute " . none
> of
>> > these groups would be considered public bodies subject to the OMA. They
>> are
>> > all formed to provide advice; none have decision making functions. And
>> > their formation was not required by statute or rule. They consist of
>> people
>> > having knowledge or an interest in the Commission's ultimate decision
> but
>> > none of the groups have any ability to decide these questions. If these
>> > groups are only advisory they are not 'Public Bodies.' Also they must 
>> > be
>> > created by resolution, statute, ordinance, etc. to be considered Public
>> > Bodies."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ms. Taeckens stated she served on ad hoc committee for the Training
> Center
>> > which consisted of 21 people and it was hard to get input from all of
> the
>> > participants. A bigger group would make it even more difficult to get
> the
>> > job done and can impede the function and goal of the group. There are
>> times
>> > when meetings should be closed as long as there is peer representation.
>> > Several consumers attending the meeting expressed their views on
> consumer
>> > participation, open meetings and dialogue opportunities.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ms. Pilarski suggested that suggestions or comments could be put in
>> writing
>> > either on the listserve or on the website.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > As you can read, above, neither Cannon nor Friedliss were correct, 
>> > since
>> > they, apparently, did not read the Commission law. The Commission law
> does
>> > not require the standard of a "public body" as does the OMA. I repeat,
>> > here, from P.A. 260: "The business which the commission or any 
>> > committee
>> > appointed under this act may perform shall be conducted at a public
>> meeting
>> > of the commission or committee held in compliance with Act No. 267 of
> the
>> > Public Acts of 1976,. . .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Speaking as a member of the NFB I have no doubt it worth our cost to
> stand
>> > up for our values and philosophy. I would, without question, do it 
>> > again
>> to
>> > get a quality outcome for thousands of blind people to come. I wonder 
>> > if
>> > others feel the vicious and unfair attack on Mark Eagle was, in the 
>> > end,
>> > worth it. This was a low-point in the misuse of power and influence to
>> gain
>> > a point. What about the questions raised when security guards appeared
> at
>> a
>> > Commission meeting? Some people wonder about the kind of fear that
>> provoked
>> > such extreme measures. What truly motivated that fear?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Let's learn from our experience. Let's be open and welcoming. Let's
> accept
>> > all views and consider them as sincere efforts to provide the best
> quality
>> > services possible. Let's abandon deception, obfuscation,
> misinterpretation
>> > and intimidation as our tactics of choice for managing the MCB. It has
>> been
>> > shown that, at least this time, the consumers will do what is 
>> > necessary,
>> in
>> > an open way, to assure quality outcomes.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Warmest Regards,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Fred
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
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