[nfbmi-talk] Rehab Counselling

joe harcz Comcast joeharcz at comcast.net
Fri Apr 15 13:11:10 UTC 2011

Again Fred most well stated! Nuances to the side it is never the job of a 
counselor to pre-determine the career choice or plan for employment. Even 
out of the context of what we all agree with the Rehab Act requires that 
these things are self-determined. Of course a counselor can and should give 
some guidance and should and can do testing, assessment and other 
complicated things not worth going into here for assisting the consumer with 
determining his/her own path.

The pressure is on "closures" and I understand the frustration in that 
regards by the way especially in horrible economic conditions generally that 
are not unlike the Great Depression. But I digress....

Your points here Fred are most well stated. If we do not respect the 
consumer and his/her right of self determination from the get go then we, 
from the beginning have failed in our mission.

Sorry if I'm kind of putting words in your mouth but I think this is what 
you've always been basically saying. If I'm incorrect in this then please 
correct me.

Regardless, you and I have debated this or that thing in the past as most 
know. But, I must say again publicly you are a man of intense goodwill and I 
love your fierce and dogged basic goodwill and passion.

You, I, Cheryl and all on this list have one thing in common. We really care 
about people who are blind. We care from the womb to the tomb. We care 
regardless as to a paycheck, though, of course that is important too. And no 
agency that doesn't have such a "caring" for lack of a better word is 
meaningful in the least and should be reformed at the very least.

Regardless, I find this whole thread most heartwarming and valuable. It is 
what we are all about.

The actions of MCB over the past decade and in accelerating fashion over the 
past few years has made me rather cynical.

I do appreciate thus Fred, Cheryl and all here the optimistic and hopeful 
vision of better things to come. In my heart I strive to be an optimist too. 
I really do. And I care intensely about the state of affairs for blind 
Michiganders and indeed those who are blind everywhere.

I sincerely hope we can have an impact.

That said, I again applaud you, Cheryl and others for your commitment, and 
indeed your "love" expressed in the best sense of that word.

Fred, if you promise not to tell anyone (grin) there are a few tears in my 
eyes over your commitment expressed in these exchanges. Don't let the bad 
guys know I'm really kind of a sentimental old softy though... Ok?

Big smile here...

Keep up the great work.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Wurtzel" <f.wurtzel at att.net>
To: "'NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List'" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Rehab Counselling

> hi Cheryl,
> 2 things.
> First, what you have said about relating to clients is the model which
> differs from NFB's approach.  of course, we believe in ethics and equal
> treatment, but there is a higher level of relationship which exceeds these
> standards and that is believing in clients as equals and first-class
> citizens.  An artificial cold and aloof style of rehabilitation does not
> foster the optimum outcome.  again, I beg you to read Blindness Handicap 
> or
> Characteristic.  The debate between Father Carroll and Dr. Jernigan lays 
> out
> the whole array of points.
> Second, I was referring to the counselor as leader in managing the
> relationship between the client and counselor.  I was agreeing with you 
> that
> a negative relationship in all probability, means that the counselor has 
> not
> found the best tool in the counseling tool box to work on the 
> relationship.
> With regard to placement, I am a firm believer in The Richard n. Bolles
> approach to job hunting.  I firmly believe the client must without a 
> doubt,
> be the leader and the agency and counselor must be a support system with
> resources to address issues outside the applicant's ability to resolve, 
> such
> as making computer systems accessible, or assisting with expensive costs
> associated with getting hired.  Bolles  wrote the What Color Is Your
> Parachute" series of books.  I have most always gotten every job I have
> applied for.  this is not bragging.  I have prepared myself and the 
> employer
> for my application and this generally works out.  As I said, I have mostly
> gotten every job I have applied for.  There have been exceptions as is
> always the case when one is involved in such a subjective effort as job
> finding.  With Bolles, the job-hunter drastically increases their chances 
> by
> preparation and seeking only those jobs which they have concluded they are
> best qualified for.  of course, it is more complex than this simplistic
> explanation, but generally this is how it works and I am an example of its
> efficacy.
> Boy on rereading this sounds more arrogant than I mean it.  I simply 
> believe
> that pre-planning and careful selection of employers and jobs drastically
> increase one's chances to be hired.  Style, setting, personality, 
> lifestyle
> and a myriad of other factors must be considered prior to the application.
> We all need to find employers that match, to the best extent possible, our
> styles and interests.  I believe this applies to all levels from manual
> labor to top management.
> As a caution, as we in the NFB have experienced with MCB a change in
> leadership in the organization can change the atmosphere and the employee
> then needs to decide how to cope.  This is not easy and in Christine's and
> Dave's cases, can be devastating to a career plan. There are bad employers
> as well as bad employees.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Cheryl Wade
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:23 PM
> To: NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Rehab Counselling
> Hello,
> Fred, you mentioned how, at NFB programs, counselors invite students to
> their homes for meals. That's a great idea for a program that's
> self-contained, and I think I would feel comfortable doing that in such a
> situation. But for ethical reasons, counselors feel they might compromise
> their relationships with clients if they become too friendly outside the
> office. It's kind of like my reporting career: if your beat is city hall 
> and
> you hang around at the city manager's house for BBQ, some might consider 
> you
> suspect.
> Of course, counselors should above all be caring, loyal to their clients,
> considerate of clients' needs above those of the status quo or outside
> parties. They should, and indeed are commanded to, practice beneficence 
> and
> justice toward clients. That sometimes means treating all clients in a
> similar way -- though not alike. So, if there are cuts and prioritization 
> of
> services, we must handle emergency situations but must not push some 
> clients
> ahead of others
> You guys are tough, and I like that. But I hope you give some of us newly
> emerging counselors a chance. I would encourage clients to tell their
> counselors when they're unhappy.
> Fred, you also mentioned how counselors should take the lead role in 
> finding
> jobs for clients. There is considerable discussion about that. I believe
> that counselors should encourage clients to take as much responsibility as
> they are comfortable doing, but prepare them for that level of 
> independence.
> The reason is that, if we don't encourage that kind of personal
> responsibility in the counseling venue, we might unwittingly be making
> clients more dependent, not less so, and patronizing them by making them
> feel that the job search is the counselor's agenda. It is the client, 
> after
> all, who will be working at that job for awhile and should be comfortable
> and happy as possible with it.
> Cheryl Wade
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 9:33 PM
> Subject: [nfbmi-talk] Rehab Counselling
>> Great points Mary and Fred!  I was thinking of the general counselling
>> program at Eastern Michigan University.  It is a generic program that
>> teaches the skills of counselling to a wide variety of proffessions. 
>> What
>> I have found out is that yes, you can come out with many of the 
>> essentials
>> but some of the specifics not so much.  Fred, we sure do need a center
>> like that one in Michigan!  Joe, we need to change the system here in
>> Michigan because everyone shouldn't have to leave the state to become 
>> self
>> reliant.  Right now I see you are entirely correct but my hope is that we
>> can change it before there is nothing at all!
>> Intelligence is always claimed but rarely proven!
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