[nfbmi-talk] integrated vs. segregated settings

Mon Jun 18 05:28:44 UTC 2012

Fred,

One of the funnier, yet sad stories was in Missouri. When I first arrived
back in 1986. The local school district had no programs at all for me. So
they had me meet a special education teacher who was also blind. Both of us
were not sure what to do, but we talked, and eventually I helped him work
on some new curriculum to teach basic computer concepts to blind students.
Basic back in those days consisted of "This is a floppy disk", "this is a
keyboard". It was an interesting program. I remember both of us sitting at
one of my IEP meetings in high school and all the teachers were babbling
about this and that, and what if... I leaned over and we both agreed this
meeting was fairly pointless and all I got out of it was an extra period of
study hall. Since at the time that was the best they could offer.

That instructor has gone on to do some really great things in both the
blind world and in the world of Special Education. But back in 1986 in
Southwest Missouri. The services needed a lot of work.

1981 New York was not perfect either.
They would buy you all kinds of assistive tech and ask what you thought of
it. The biggest threat that I had, and come to find out other people had
is, if you said "no it was useless." Then you would fear they wouldn't buy
you anymore goodies. Eventually this came out between me and my VI
instructor. She found this very disconcerting but did agree in some
aspects.

What did come out of New York was the Schafer reading stand. The monocular
as a usable device, how to use a computer, books on tape from the RFB, and
a heck of a lot of OM training. OM training in the snow, rain, summer,
city, village, whatever. The state of New York was very determined back
then to make sure you learned how to get around and be a part of society.
>From asking for large print tests, to learning how to spend extra time in
the grocery store to pick out unwaxed dental floss, rather than waxed
dental floss. I failed that one several times.

The fall of 1984 in New York was the first place I was introduced to the
Apple Macintosh to write my papers on. Since you could get the text really
big. My VI teacher carried around the original mac in the beige bag and the
dot matrix printer that actually printed fonts, and every two days during
her weekly circuit of our small communities I got to use that computer
instead of the TRS-80's or the manual typewriter.

The school and local library arranged for a Kurzweil Reading Machine to be
brought up to our small village library. It was placed in a room with the
library's photo copier and other valuable electronics. I sat in that room
many days after school learning how to use that thing. Since the manuals
were very thick and of course back then the keypad it came with had no text
on it, since, why would blind people need to labels on the keys?
I was the only one who needed that machine in the community, and there it
sat in a room ready for me whenever I needed it. I learned how to use that
thing, and eventually went to some other workshops where I pointed out the
basics of how to use that device. My final conclusion was it was good for
large text books with few pictures, but sucked for small paperbacks because
you were always getting up and flipping the page, or the paperback would
simply slip off the giant scanner bed.

while in Missouri in 1987 I remember visiting the Kansas City school for
the blind for a parent workshop. The facility was old and while I hope the
work there was beneficial. It did not give me a sense of hope for those who
attended the facility. It was way less modern than the regular public
school I attended.

Things have come a long ways for blind folks in America, but there appears
to be a lot of work to be done on both sides.

I stopped attending blind events soon after college. I got tired of hearing
the same thing during each breakout session. A bunch of blind students
sitting around complaining about teachers, buses, readers, and the like. I
would try to give some advice, but the ongoing shouting and talking over
was beyond my patience. So I stopped attending them.

As I have aged I started looking for blind people to chat with and I
started with reading the NFB site and then joining my local chapter. Once I
moved to Michigan I found a fairly toxic environment when I attended the
state convention two years ago. Lots of bad things were going on. So bad
that at the time even the state's NewsLine service was not active. Which
was not a good sign.

I don't begin to understand what happened to make things so bad up here in
Michigan, but I know what my goals are while I am up here. I want to
continue working on my career goals and understanding the overall status of
both the folks helping the blind, and the blind reaching out looking for
opportunities to better themselves.

I saw the AT guys at the state convention two years ago and I was amazed.
They were using their iphones, and bluetooth keyboards, accessories that
any sighted person would have, but they were using them in a completely
different manner. It was amazing to see how mainstream products can be
readily accessible to every user.

Blind people need to know that until some type of miracle happens, which
probably involves unicorns and rainbows, they have to get up every morning,
get dressed, go to a job, any job, and live their lives knowing, that to
move out of their current situation they need to set goals and understand
that a minimum or even worse "sub-minimum" wage job is just the beginning
of their journey.

Once again thank you for your time and please have a good day and a
productive week.

Matt Sievert

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Fred Wurtzel <f.wurtzel at att.net> wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
> Thank you for this.  I think it says a lot.  Reading this confirms, for me,
> my view that the setting is less important than the enlightenment of those
> running the school or program.
>
> Again, thank you for sharing your experience.
>
> Warm Regards,
>
> Fred
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Matt Sievert
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:21 PM
> To: NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] integrated vs. segregated settings
>
> Group,
>
> I have seen segregation work for and against me while going through the
> public school system.
>
> In New York I had the vi instructor come around and visit. I had OM
> workshops, large print books, and dark ruled paper, and no purple dittos.
> However, I participated in regular classes including gym. Which included
> learning how to use a combination lock, since that is what was built into
> the gym lockers at the time. I was also expected to run just as far as the
> sighted kids. As far as projectile sports. Alternatives were found, after I
> gave it my best shot to see how well I could do at softball or soccer, or
> whatever the activity of the day was. If all else failed there was laps
> around the field or other physical activity, but it was always nearby or
> including the regular class. I went to mandatory school sanctioned swimming
> lessons with everyone else.
>
> In Arizona I got the vi, no OM and I got stuck into a special gym class
> with
> the "exceptional" people. This was an issue that I know has affected my
> physical growth ever since. Not until after college did I start to
> understand how I could participate physically in activities which in turn
> helped me become more fit and functional.
>
> If I knew what I knew today I would have at least wrestled in high school.
> My middle school in New York kept hinting I should try that sport out, but
> my family moved to Arizona and I ended up in a gym class with all the other
> special folks at my highschool.
>
> In Missouri where I finished out my high school years. There was no vi, and
> no om. Instead I was assigned to spend one hour during my senior year going
> to the special classroom for any tutoring I needed. Which a lot of time
> consisted of me asking for a pass to go to the library so I could get away
> from the noisier students in the room.
>
> So, I had a mixture of experiences with integration/segregation in school.
>
> I know I yearn to interact with more blind folks. Since I don't see many.
> However, I live and work in a sighted world. Where everyone expects you to
> have good vision, or your an anomaly.
>
> If I had children who were disabled. I would do my homework and try to
> locate in an environment that had services in place to take care of the
> physical disability, while allowing the child to interact with everyone
> else
> in both the social, and learning aspects associated with growing up.
>
> I can't stress how important it is to carefully monitor the difference
> between "helping" the child and letting them "be a child". From both the
> educator and the parent stand point.
>
> As a parent I would seek out the weekend workshops, even if they are in
> different states to attend and learn from other parent's about their
> techniques and what to expect and ask for from their children and their
> children's educators.
>
> Thank you for your time, and I wish you all the best.
>
> Matthew Sievert
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Fred Wurtzel <f.wurtzel at att.net> wrote:
>
> > Larry, you prove the point that the dogmatic ideological notion of 1
> > setting over another is a false premise.  The quality of the education
> > is the important point, not the setting or who is in the seat next to
> > the student.
> > The less experience with blindness some people have, seemingly, the
> > more they rant about the positive benefits of inclusion and the
> > negative aspects of specialized settings.
> >
> > I'm glad we are on the same team, Larry.
> >
> > Warmest Regards,
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:22 PM
> > To: NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] integrated vs. segregated settings
> >
> > Lydia, you sure got it!  I managed to get my daughter into MSD and
> > even though its programs were cut as well she blossomed there!  In
> > fact, she chose to go to Gallaudet and is working and will move on to
> > Colorado for more education.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lydia Schuck" <laschuck at juno.com>
> > To: <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 6:54 PM
> > Subject: [nfbmi-talk] integrated vs. segregated settings
> >
> >
> > > Hi listfriends,
> > > As a parent I want to give my child the best education I can find
> > > and afford.  For blind kids the best might mean a segregated setting
> > > for all or part of the day.  I like the idea of inclusive education,
> > > the "everyone together" movement, if it gives kids the best.  But I
> > > have seen what mainstreaming has meant in Michigan.  There is no
> > > residential option at all, and the whole continuum of options for
> > > blind kids has been watered down as a result.  Excellent programs
> > > are available to a very few students.
> > > I mention this "everyone together" inclusion model because we may
> > > sometime find ourselves struggling to have any special separate
> > > services for our kids, and being included may become a higher value
> > > than being educated.
> > >
> > > Lydia
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > nfbmi-talk mailing list
> > > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > > for
> > > nfbmi-talk:
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40co
> > > mc
> > > ast.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfbmi-talk mailing list
> > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nfbmi-talk:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/f.wurtzel%40at
> > t.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfbmi-talk mailing list
> > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nfbmi-talk:
> >
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/matt.sievert%4
> > 0gmail.com
> >
> _______________________________________________
> nfbmi-talk mailing list
> nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbmi-talk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/f.wurtzel%40att.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbmi-talk mailing list
> nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbmi-talk:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/matt.sievert%40gmail.com
>