[nfbmi-talk] only took 3 plus months to post to site
joe harcz Comcast via nfbmi-talk
nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
Mon May 19 12:00:03 UTC 2014
1
1
2
3 STATE OF MICHIGAN
4 BUREAU OF SERVICES FOR BLIND PERSONS
5 COMMISSION FOR BLIND PERSONS
6 - - -
7 MEETING OF FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 2014
8 9:25 a.m.
9 2436 Woodlake Circle, Suite 380
10 Okemos, Michigan
11 - - -
12 PRESENT:
13 BUREAU OF SERVICES FOR BLIND PERSONS:
14 Edward F. Rodgers, II, Director
Lisa Kisiel, Training Center Director
15 Sue Luzenski, Board Secretary
16 COMMISSION FOR BLIND PERSONS:
17 Lylas G. Mogk, Chairperson
LeeAnn Buckingham
18 Marianne Dunn
Gary Gaynor
19 Josie Barnes-Parker
Joseph E. Sibley
20
21 - - -
22
23
24 REPORTED BY: Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315
33231 Grand River Avenue
25 Farmington, Michigan 48336
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
2
1 Okemos, Michigan
2 Friday, February 7, 2014
3 At 9:25 a.m.
4 - - -
5 DR. MOGK: Okay. Shall we call this
6 meeting to order. All right. Welcome, everybody. We, I
7 think as we generally do, I think we should start around
8 the room introducing ourselves so everybody in the room
9 knows everybody else, and I will start. I'm Lylas Mogk,
10 I'm an ophthalmologist with the Henry Ford System in
11 Grosse Pointe and Livonia and run a vision rehab program
12 for adults.
13 Let's start with Marianne at this end and
14 go around our table, and then we'll go around the guests
15 as well.
16 MS. DUNN: I had to take a voice mail
17 there. We're just doing introductions?
18 DR. MOGK: Yes.
19 MS. DUNN: Marianne Dunn, I'm a parent of
20 two blind kids who are seniors in high school, and I am a
21 member of Michigan Parents of the Visually Impaired in
22 Grand Rapids.
23 MR. SIBLEY: I'm Joe Sibley from the
24 Grand Rapids area. My other hat is president of the
25 Michigan Council of the Blind and Visually Impaired,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
3
1 which is the Michigan affiliate of the American Council
2 of the Blind, and I am legally blind for about 16 years
3 now.
4 MS. BUCKINGHAM: My name is LeeAnn
5 Buckingham, I am legally blind. I own a business in
6 Okemos for 15 years, I have seven employees. I also
7 donate to local businesses, and I'm working with Leader
8 Dogs in Rochester, Michigan, and I'm also very happy to
9 be here.
10 MS. PARKER: My name is Josie Parker, I'm
11 the director of the Ann Arbor District Library and also
12 the Washtenaw Library for the Blind and Physically
13 Handicapped in Washtenaw County, and I'm very pleased to
14 be here.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Gary Gaynor, I have
16 retinitis pigmentosa, I'm legally blind, and I operate
17 the Visually Impaired Information Center, where we
18 publish the -- we publish the directory of Visually
19 Impaired Services.
20 MR. RODGERS: I'm Ed Rodgers, and I'm the
21 director of the Bureau of Services for Blind Persons.
22 MS. LUZENSKI: Sue Luzenski, and I'm the
23 assistant to the director of the Bureau for Services for
24 Blind -- of Services for Blind Persons -- sorry, I
25 haven't had my caffeine yet -- and also the secretary to
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
4
1 the advisory commission.
2 MIS KISIEL: I'm Lisa Kisiel, I'm the
3 Bureau of Services for Blind Persons Training Center
4 director from Kalamazoo.
5 MR. ROSE: Charlie Rose, Michigan
6 Protection and Advocacy Service, I'm an advocate.
7 MS. BARNUM-YARGER: Good morning.
8 Valerie Barnum-Yarger, and I'm with the Statewide
9 Independent Living Council, also called SILC.
10 DR. MOGK: Okay. Very good. As we have
11 done in the past, I would like to read the mission
12 statement of this Commission so everyone knows where
13 we're coming from. Our mission is to study the needs of
14 the citizens of Michigan who are blind and visually
15 impaired. We investigate, monitor, and evaluate the
16 state programs that serve those citizens, and when
17 appropriate, to advise the Department of Licensing and
18 Regulatory Affairs with respect to the coordination and
19 administration of those programs, and to recommend
20 changes in them, as well as in the state statutes and
21 policies; and in addition, to strive to secure
22 appropriate recognition of the accomplishments of
23 citizens who are blind and visually impaired.
24 Okay. I think we would like to start out
25 this meeting with the minutes of the December 5 meeting.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
5
1 Do I have a move to accept the minutes?
2 MS. PARKER: I'll make that motion.
3 DR. MOGK: Anyone a second?
4 MR. GAYNOR: I'll second.
5 DR. MOGK: Okay. Is there any discussion
6 about the minutes, any questions about them, any
7 corrections or additions? Okay. Then the minutes stand
8 as written, and we thank the transcriber for them.
9 And we'll go right into the update from
10 Lisa regarding the Training Center. So Lisa, you're
11 welcome to come up here. How about we pull a chair up
12 here and you can come on up here.
13 MS. KISIEL: Over here?
14 DR. MOGK: Yeah, right next to me.
15 MS. KISIEL: Thank you. Good morning,
16 everybody. I'm glad we're all here safe and warm,
17 because it's going to get just colder. Thank you for the
18 opportunity to present to you this morning, and certainly
19 you'll have an opportunity to ask me questions.
20 First of all, I know that our Training
21 Center committee has some questions for us, and we are
22 working through those answers and looking forward to our
23 teleconference on the 21st of February. And we
24 appreciate you accommodating our class schedule, teaching
25 schedule --
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
6
1 MS. DUNN: Sure.
2 MS. KISIEL: -- to do that. I like to
3 try to, you know, keep them doing the work of the day as
4 much as possible.
5 So first of all, I wanted to just talk
6 about the Vocational Exploration Program, and that's
7 going to kind of segue into some staff changes that we're
8 making. As of January 3rd, 2014, our counselor, Faith
9 Meadows, has retired, and she's had a long-standing stint
10 with state employment, and actually loved us so much that
11 she came back, and so she has since retired, and we're
12 looking to fill that position, and I'm looking to do that
13 by way of expanding the Vocational Exploration Program.
14 We're actually going to start calling it Career Planning,
15 we decided it just made -- it just is a little easier to
16 roll off the tongue, so we're going to call it Career
17 Planning. And we're actually, as some of you know, we
18 have a staff person dedicated to that work, and it
19 encompasses a variety of different things, from interest
20 assessments to resume development to how do we talk about
21 our disability to employers to job informational
22 interviews and job shadowing, and actually, you know, in
23 some instances, hopefully more than not, some work
24 experiences either at our center or in the community. My
25 goal for that program is to expand it into another
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
7
1 position so that we would have two counselors providing
2 that service, essentially splitting the caseload, and so
3 that we've got, you know, if we're full at 26 to 28
4 students, that we would have, you know, 13 or 14 per
5 counselor dedicated to that work, so, and also managing
6 their programming at the center, which I think fits very
7 well because it segues into the work of the day as far as
8 that Career Planning, because that's what we're here to
9 do, as well as working with our independent living older
10 blind clients to make sure that they are provided the
11 services that they need in order to maintain their
12 independence in the community. So that's sort of a staff
13 change that's happening.
14 Another staff change that's happening is
15 that one of our teachers from the Training Center,
16 Jennifer Doan, is actually going to be moving to the
17 field office in Grand Rapids. She's just wanting to make
18 some life changes that will bring her closer to her
19 family, and so she's going to take it on the road and go
20 out into the field, so we will be recruiting for a
21 teacher to fill that position as well.
22 And I'm sure, as most of you know, we
23 recently hired Cheryl Hybeck as our assistant director,
24 and she'll be starting on April -- I'm sorry --
25 February 18, after the Presidents' Day holiday, and I'm
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
8
1 excited. As I say to her, she completes me. We have
2 similar -- we have very similar styles, and we have
3 different skill sets that complement each other, and I
4 think we'll create a package that someone would consider
5 the dynamic duo; I don't know, we'll see about it. She's
6 dynamic, I'm not saying I'm dynamic. So we're excited
7 about that.
8 We're also looking to do interviews for
9 acquiring a fifth person in Support Services, which is
10 the residential portion of the Training Center. We
11 actually hired Carla Piper back in December, she comes to
12 us as a -- with a great experience in rehabilitation
13 teaching, taught in Paolo Alto for ten years, she herself
14 is a person who is blind, and she's from Michigan, and I
15 remember her from back in the days of college prep many,
16 many years ago. So we're exited to have her on board in
17 our Support Service department.
18 And we're looking to hire that nurse that
19 we've been talking about and scheduling interviews,
20 looking the week of the 24th of February. It's been a
21 juggle with schedules. And I will admit to you, this
22 weather that we've had has not contributed to travel as
23 far as getting people all in the right places, but we're
24 excited to get that going as well and moving forward.
25 Any questions about that before I move on
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
9
1 to another topic?
2 MR. SIBLEY: Do you have a nurse right
3 now for --
4 MS. KISIEL: We have two, yep, and we're
5 looking to expand that to three so that we can make sure
6 to manage the needs that we have.
7 MR. SIBLEY: Could you expand on what
8 Support Services does?
9 MS. KISIEL: Absolutely. Support
10 Services, you know, that term is from long ago, and maybe
11 there will be a need someday to readdress what we call
12 that, but for today we'll call it Support Services. And
13 what I equate that to would be synonymous of residence
14 life, so that is the part of our center where, you know,
15 the 24/7 piece where that helps to manage the center
16 during the off hours, nights, weekends, you know, and
17 also, you know, during the day if there are any needs
18 that aren't related to their programming as far as
19 classes, you know, if there's illness or if there's just
20 things like that. And right now we're in flu season, so
21 we are asking everybody to please use your Lysol wipes on
22 the door handles and so we don't -- and I know last year
23 we had a situation where we needed to suspend instruction
24 for a week. We have not had to do that, we're grateful
25 for that, but, you know, there's a fair share of tummy
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
10
1 aches and whatever. But so the Support Services
2 really -- and they also do a lot of auxiliary things:
3 They print our schedules, they Braille our schedules,
4 they, you know, call like if we need service in the
5 building on the weekends, if there's something like that,
6 you know, they're that, really that wind beneath my wings
7 kind of thing, you know, you don't hear from them a lot,
8 but they're out there and they're doing a lot of really
9 important things. They also encourage continued work
10 after hours as far as if homework is assigned in given
11 areas, if there are Braille assignments that students are
12 given and they need to be encouraged to make sure they
13 get that done; if they need assistance with, you know,
14 using their computer, you know, Carla, for one, being a
15 rehab teacher is a great person to help encourage that;
16 you know, all those kind of auxiliary things that happen
17 in a residential facility. Does that answer your
18 question?
19 MR. SIBLEY: Uh-huh.
20 MS. KISIEL: Okay.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Is there anything, Lisa,
22 that's going to -- how is it going to change from
23 vocational training to career development or whatever?
24 MS. KISIEL: Just a name change.
25 MR. GAYNOR: So is anything going to
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
11
1 change that's within that?
2 MS. KISIEL: No, not at this point, no.
3 I mean she consistently evaluates her curriculum and she,
4 Karen Gordesec is who I'm referring to, she actually was
5 a key partner in developing that curriculum, and she's,
6 you know, constantly revising and making it better. But
7 I think, you know, she just thinks that Vocational
8 Exploration and Planning, you know, it's just kind of,
9 it's a long name, so she said, you know what, let's just
10 shore it up a little bit.
11 MR. GAYNOR: Does she work with the --
12 help me on the name here -- business --
13 MR. RODGERS: Business Assistance and
14 Development.
15 MR. GAYNOR: No, not that group. The
16 employment specialists, with the employment specialists?
17 MS. KISIEL: She works with the
18 counselors, she can work with the employment specialists,
19 absolutely. You know, she's pretty much whoever she
20 needs to talk to get what needs to happen to happen. And
21 you need to remember that like if there are consumers
22 that come from the Center, you know, what we try to do is
23 create a package so that when we send -- when the person
24 leaves our program, that they leave with a package. They
25 are well trained, they're independent, they're traveling
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
12
1 to the, you know, to the best of their abilities and
2 skills, they've had some experience with employers,
3 either talking to employers, doing that informational
4 interviewing, job shadowing, work experience, they've got
5 a resume, they walk out the door with that, so that when
6 they transition back to their home counselor, they have a
7 product, that they're ready. You know, not to say that
8 there isn't work to do on that product, because it's a
9 team approach, you can not -- you know, the Training
10 Center, you can't be successful without the field, the
11 field needs the Center, you know, we have to work
12 together. And I also, you know, I encourage the field
13 staff and I let them know, if your consumer comes to us
14 and they need a low-vision assessment and they live in
15 Escanaba and it's two hours to the nearest clinic, which
16 is sometimes the case, we can help to get that done; if
17 you need the hearing assessment, we can help to get that
18 done, so that, again, you come home with a package that
19 can say this is what we've done and now we're ready to
20 move forward. So we don't -- I do want to be clear about
21 that, because I know that was one of the questions that
22 was asked by the committee; we are not an LCTI, we do not
23 have vocational programs that are accredited, and we're
24 not planning to be a direct placement service, because we
25 are in Kalamazoo, and if you live in Detroit, that's
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
13
1 going to be hard, you know, a pretty hard task for us to
2 do. But what we can do is send someone home who came to
3 us and had no idea of what they wanted to do, we can send
4 them home with an idea of what they want to do and
5 experience to possibly back that up, and to help them,
6 you know, they're going to know more than they did when
7 they came.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
9 MS. KISIEL: Does that answer your
10 question?
11 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, yes.
12 MR. SIBLEY: Lisa, how is the technology
13 training piece, because that's so critical to any
14 employment these days?
15 MS. KISIEL: It's so critical, and it's
16 such a moving and changing thing, and I believe that as
17 we recruit more staff, as attrition and time, you know --
18 those things happen, right, people come and go -- we are
19 definitely looking to acquire skill sets that represent
20 technology and that skill. We are -- our instructors are
21 completely full all the time teaching technology. We're
22 teaching computer skills, we're teaching adaptive
23 technology, which is iPhones and iPads and all of those,
24 the pods, pads and phones, and the Braille mobile
25 managers and the Braille Plus 18 and some of those, you
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
14
1 know, all those devices that we, that come to us.
2 We actually -- I was talking with LeeAnn
3 before we started, she was having some issues with
4 toggling with her headphones and versus microphone. I am
5 so excited to be able to tell you that one of our
6 instructors, Amber Willard, during Christmas break wanted
7 to go out and do a site visit to one of our BEP operators
8 in Grand Rapids, because we had trained her and helped
9 her and she -- you know, we wanted to know what happens
10 to people when they leave, because we serve the entire
11 state, so, you know, we get new people coming and going
12 all the time. So over Christmas, when it was a little
13 quieter and we didn't have students at the Center, they
14 actually, she and Jenny Doan did a site visit to Grand
15 Rapids and noticed that this person was having some
16 issues with toggling between the iPad and the Square,
17 which is the credit card billing machine, and Amber's
18 husband works for a, he's a computer guru,
19 software/hardware company, he found a device that is $35
20 that we have since tested and dispensed for this person
21 to use that actually allows you to toggle between those
22 two devices so that a blind person can independently
23 complete their own credit card transactions, which is not
24 something that they could do before. So she's, you know,
25 kind of testing that out and seeing how that's going to,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
15
1 you know, work for her, but we're pretty hopeful, and
2 it's $35. So that's nothing in the field of technology.
3 So we acknowledge that, Joe, that that is
4 an area that we need to absolutely forever and always
5 grow. I also acknowledge that every instructor that I
6 have that is able to teach it is doing so, and the demand
7 is huge.
8 MS. BUCKINGHAM: I have a question.
9 LeeAnn Buckingham. On the technology question, as far as
10 business enterprise, do you teach all your students that
11 want to become an operator the same technology, and are
12 they using the same technology in their small business,
13 their business and operation --
14 MS. KISIEL: We do teach technology to
15 the BEP operators, and we will teach to the programs that
16 they need to know in order to do their work, and that is
17 not necessarily going to be the same for every person. I
18 was thinking today about the first time I ever spoke to
19 the Commission board, which was almost 20 years ago, and
20 I was thinking about my, what I suggested to be my
21 philosophy of service, and that is that I am a client-
22 centered service provider, meaning that I believe that we
23 work to the needs of the customer. And so my point in
24 saying that is you may have one individual that comes in
25 who is extremely math savvy and does Access and Excel
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
16
1 and, you know, and then you may have another individual
2 that comes in who is not so much, but does need to know
3 how to read the spreadsheets, but they're going to be
4 relying more on an accountant or a bookkeeper or, but
5 they still need to know, they need to read their payroll,
6 they need to be able to -- you know, you've got to check
7 and balance, right, you can't just say here accountant,
8 take that from me, because then how are how you know
9 you're not being cheated.
10 MS. BUCKINGHAM: My reason for asking
11 that is when they send in their reports, if they're able
12 to send it in in Braille or whatever, or e-mail or Excel,
13 whatever program they're using, but having it set up so
14 they're all sending it in at the same time so they have
15 adequate records, but being trained to the, so they have
16 the ability of being able to work on their own and using
17 those.
18 MS. KISIEL: Right.
19 MR. RODGERS: If I can interject for a
20 second. LeeAnn, one of the things we've done in our
21 first year was we've standardized all of the filing
22 requirements so that all of the operators know when
23 things are due and they're all sending them in basically
24 at the same time. We also, in order to have more
25 accountability and accuracy, created a system whereby
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
17
1 there will be monthly reports that are due seven days
2 into the next month. So for instance, today is the
3 deadline for the January reports, and we're accepting
4 them in any form that is accessible to the operators, and
5 we have staff reviewing those.
6 MS. BUCKINGHAM: Okay.
7 MS. KISIEL: So in answer to your
8 question, we are absolutely willing -- you know, like,
9 for instance, if we are given a packet of documents or
10 templates and we are explained that this is what the
11 operator needs to know in order to be able to complete
12 the work that Ed just mentioned --
13 MS. BUCKINGHAM: Right.
14 MS. KISIEL: -- then we would teach to
15 that. Okay. That's what -- actually, that works way
16 better than saying they need to know Excel, because what
17 does that mean, Excel is a pretty diverse program, and I
18 know how to use Excel a little bit, but I don't write
19 formulas.
20 MS. BUCKINGHAM: See, I do.
21 MS. KISIEL: You could teach me, then.
22 I'd like to, I've tried it a little bit, but I didn't do
23 very well.
24 MR. RODGERS: Would you like a second
25 job, LeeAnn?
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
18
1 MS. KISIEL: So, you know, those are the
2 kinds of things we are willing -- you know, and actually
3 BEP is on my list of things to talk about. We're
4 actually sort of, as most of you kind of know, we have
5 not been part of the BEP training in the last few years,
6 so if my answers are a little vague, it's because we're
7 sort of getting back into that again, and we're actually
8 looking to potentially host a training. When I say host,
9 I mean house that training, we're not, you know -- but
10 we're sort of, we are working with our partner program to
11 begin to work together on that. And so as part of that,
12 I would expect that we will be having conversations like,
13 you know, you're asking, what are the -- you know, what
14 do we need to be teaching them to know so that they can
15 be prepared.
16 MS. DUNN: Lisa, I had a question. This
17 is Marianne Dunn. You may be addressing it later. I was
18 wondering a little bit more about the assessment piece
19 that Karen does when a client comes in, and related to
20 that, what's an appropriate referral for you to get from
21 the field office, and what kinds of cases are sent to you
22 that really aren't appropriate to what the Training
23 Center offers?
24 MS. KISIEL: What's an appropriate
25 referral? I think an appropriate referral is an
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
19
1 individual who is motivated and interested in being part
2 of the program, someone who is hopefully physically
3 capable of participating in six to eight hours a day of
4 training. And let me clarify that by saying we
5 understand that not everyone comes with stamina at the
6 door, and we will work with that. And, you know, I've
7 told this story about a young woman who came to us who
8 really had some stamina issues and she couldn't get from
9 one class to the other without taking a break, and now
10 she is, you know, she's not going 50 miles an hour, but
11 she is moving that building and she's navigating her
12 classes, and she's benefiting from the services that we
13 provide.
14 MS. DUNN: So these are individuals
15 typically then who are in what stage of transition in
16 terms of their blindness?
17 MS. KISIEL: Usually the beginning. And
18 usually we are -- we are one of the first steps. When we
19 work with an individual, we go out and we open a case and
20 we determine that someone's eligible for services, and we
21 look at the situation, we evaluate what is it that they
22 need in order to begin to become employment ready. You
23 know, one of the first things we know is that you need to
24 be independent. I used to tell intakes, you know, you
25 got to be able to do your laundry, make your lunch and
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
20
1 your dinner, and wash your clothes, you know, all that,
2 as well as going to work. It's a package. You know,
3 it's a holistic approach. We can't say just, well, we
4 just want to get you to go to work, but you don't have
5 any skills once you get there, I mean that's kind of a
6 no-brainer, right, we have to address that.
7 MS. DUNN: And is there any assessment
8 done in the field before they come as far as capacities
9 or aptitudes or --
10 MS. KISIEL: Some. You know, I can't
11 speak -- I can't tell you across the board. It depends
12 on where a person is in their adjustment, where a person,
13 you know, how long has the person been blind, you know,
14 all of those things come into play. You know, those
15 services do happen. And we look at that information when
16 they come to us. You know, teaching assessments are also
17 done in the field, so we look at those assessments to
18 determine, you know, what has been something that's been
19 highlighted as a concern.
20 MR. RODGERS: And if I could add
21 something, Marianne, to that, because you're probably
22 more aware of this than a lot of us in this room; we also
23 coordinate that where we start working with the youth, so
24 the idea is set up that the educational plan in the
25 intermediate school district or the school district, and
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
21
1 there's assessments going on there that is shared with
2 our staff, and our staff works closely with the school
3 districts, especially with the young kids that are coming
4 up in the system.
5 MS. DUNN: Yeah. And my question had
6 more to do with the adult population, getting a sense of
7 what information do you get when they come to you, what's
8 been done. So a teaching assessment has been done?
9 MS. KISIEL: Yep, teaching assessments
10 are done, and, you know, when you're dealing with adults,
11 as you know, it's a very different population in
12 transition. With transition you're doing a lot of
13 exploration and, you know, my world is my oyster kind of
14 a thing, you know. With adults you're looking at people
15 who have had work history, who have lost jobs, who have
16 lost family, who have lost friends, you know, who are
17 sometimes ill, you know, or have had a significant event
18 in their life that has caused their blindness; and I'm
19 not saying anyone's -- they're different, simply and
20 complicatedly, they're different, so we look at all of
21 those things. And a lot of times, you know, we get to
22 know people, and I can say this from I've been on both
23 sides, we get to know people very differently at the
24 Training Center than -- you know, their field counselors
25 see them in the field for an hour and a half at a time,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
22
1 and that's their job, I mean they don't live with them,
2 you know, that's how it's supposed to be. But we see
3 them every day, and so, you know, the real deal comes
4 out; how motivated they are, how interested they are, how
5 scared they are, you know, there's a lot that happens in
6 our building.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Is there anything being
8 changed in the assessment process in the field before
9 they get to you, because there seemed to have been some
10 issues?
11 MS. KISIEL: I can't speak to that. I
12 honestly --
13 MR. RODGERS: I will address that when I
14 give my report actually, Gary. It's one of my points
15 this morning.
16 MS. PARKER: Lisa, this is Josie, I have
17 a question. One of the things that has come to our
18 attention in the field when we've been out talking to
19 different people in my subcommittee, Consumers Services,
20 is what you just referred to is the different emotional
21 states one might be in when one comes to the Training
22 Center or even to the field offices. And I realized
23 that -- and I beg your pardon, for some reason my voice
24 is going. I realized that the people, all of you, are
25 trained professionals in your areas, but what seems to me
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
23
1 to be a lack, and can you correct me if I've just missed
2 it, is a psychologist, and I'm wondering if there's no
3 space in Training Center staff for an psychologist, I
4 mean someone who is trained to talk to people about their
5 emotions, what's happening with them in terms of -- I can
6 imagine being very motivated and getting to the Training
7 Center and becoming very unmotivated by being overwhelmed
8 by all of it, and then wanting to quit, and I realize
9 that you all are there to coach and support, but at the
10 same time, I'm asking this question as someone who
11 doesn't really know what goes on at the Training Center.
12 Is there room in this program for a person who is a
13 trained psychologist?
14 MS. KISIEL: We actually have a trained
15 psychologist that we do contract with, or purchase
16 service from.
17 MS. PARKER: Okay. But when you say
18 purchase service, are they there?
19 MS. KISIEL: Yeah. He comes to the
20 Training Center, and when the counselors make referrals
21 to him for someone like you're speaking about, who needs
22 that stepped up outside, you know, that more extended
23 counseling, we, yes, he comes into the building. He also
24 does testing, and he does that, too. And our counselors,
25 you know, they're rehabilitation counselors, they're
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
24
1 eligible to be certified as rehab counselors, they're
2 eligible to be licensed professional counselors, and I
3 think that's one of the things that I'm really excited
4 about extending Karen's program is that there's a lot of
5 counseling that goes on at that table when they start
6 talking about careers.
7 MS. PARKER: Right.
8 MS. KISIEL: I mean a lot.
9 MS. PARKER: And that's something we that
10 really understood better and better everywhere we've
11 gone, and yet there doesn't seem to be a lot of time, and
12 there are so many clients and so many hours, and it's
13 just something that it's been, it's been impressed on me
14 how that is such a huge part of getting a person from an
15 event where blindness may have occurred to being able to
16 see the future, and in any way that might be possible for
17 them, and how that piece right there is going to be where
18 a person makes big decisions, no matter how old they
19 are, --
20 MS. KISIEL: Right.
21 MS. PARKER: -- that impact on services,
22 and how we have in our Bureau in the past had people
23 change their minds more than once and continue to receive
24 services for different career paths, and it -- I'm only
25 asking this question because I see that as a, as an issue
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
25
1 for the Bureau to deal with, and how we do that, that's
2 why I'm asking that question.
3 MS. KISIEL: No, and that's a good
4 question, and coming, you know, I come from a clinical
5 background, so I get that. And I think it's, you know --
6 and I'll tell you, people go, the stages, I've always
7 said blindness is grieving the loss of sight, it's a
8 loss, it's a grief. If you've read Elizabeth
9 Kubler-Ross's Five Stages of Grief, it's all there, every
10 bit of it, it's all there; the anger, the acceptance, the
11 defensiveness, all of it, you know, denial. And you
12 watch people come to the Center and it's really amazing,
13 you know, they go through that, they get scared, they get
14 unmotivated. Sometimes you'll notice they might, you
15 know, stay in their room, you know, whatnot; and then as
16 the time goes, they come out and they start, you know,
17 coming together with other people that are going through
18 the same thing, and that morphing starts to happen, and
19 it's amazing. But, you know, we also know that -- you
20 also know that everyone that we serve, as well as being
21 blind, may represent other disability groups. So there
22 are other disability groups that are always being
23 considered, and mental health concerns are depression,
24 all that is considered.
25 And so when we review -- every month we
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
26
1 have a review of the incoming referrals, and when we do
2 that, we look at those needs, and we start looking and
3 say, do we need to make a referral to Dr. Gallagher so
4 that that's set up before they get here; we need to make
5 sure if a person is taking, you know, mood altering
6 medications, that that continues. You know, that is part
7 of that process of reviewing those referrals so that
8 we're more prepared when they come to us.
9 MS. PARKER: Thank you.
10 MS. KISIEL: Because that's absolutely
11 true. And that's why I've always said, and I understand
12 this can sometimes be controversial, but sometimes people
13 need to come and go and come back. Sometimes that's --
14 that's part of being human beings, you know, we change,
15 and our adjustment is multifaceted. And for those of us
16 who have ever lost people in our lives that we loved, it
17 takes time. So yes, I absolutely respect that.
18 MS. DUNN: Lisa, do you see barriers once
19 you discharge someone back to the field, barriers in
20 terms of staffing, case load levels or other things, that
21 prevent that counseling piece from continuing, where the
22 more individualized counseling element is not followed
23 through on?
24 MS. KISIEL: You know, I think it's not
25 certainly -- I'm not going to talk about -- you know, I
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
27
1 think the field staff is more than willing to do that
2 work. I think sometimes what becomes a barrier is --
3 this is awful -- but location, sometimes that's a real,
4 honest and natural consequence.
5 MS. DUNN: Meaning?
6 MS. KISIEL: Location and access. You
7 know, we serve a lot of folks. Those of us who live in
8 cities, you know, we don't think about that so much, but
9 there's a whole lot of wide open spaces in Michigan where
10 there are lots of distances between here and there, and,
11 you know, services that aren't always available
12 everywhere. You know, when I say there's a disconnect,
13 you know, sometimes there is, sometimes there -- but
14 there are lots of reasons for that.
15 MS. DUNN: You know, the goal as we look
16 at it of course is to get more and more blind and
17 visually impaired people employed, so I see our task as
18 trying to identify what the obstacles are to that goal,
19 and wanting to address how to limit them in terms of
20 their impact on preventing individuals from being
21 employed --
22 MS. KISIEL: Right.
23 MS. DUNN: -- so that continuum is part
24 of the continuity of services --
25 MS. KISIEL: Absolutely, and we're
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
28
1 working toward that. And I agree, our programs need to
2 work together better and continue to -- continue to work
3 together well, and, you know, there are always going to
4 be rooms for improvement, and there is always going to be
5 an opportunity for any one of us to do something more and
6 better. I think that when asked the question the number
7 one barrier to employment, you know, there's -- I've
8 often said attitude and transportation; the attitude of
9 the employer, the attitude of the individual seeking
10 employment, the attitude of, you know, of the people
11 around them; and transportation can, it's really huge.
12 And I think sometimes -- I will tell you, I worked a
13 fairly rural case load, and I will have to have said to
14 people, you know, sometimes living in White Pigeon,
15 Michigan, is not going to lend itself to employment, and
16 that's a hard truth to tell a man who is sitting in his
17 home when he worked for the road commission on a road
18 that he named called Mom's Road -- don't ask, I don't
19 know -- and tell him that your opportunity for employment
20 in this place you've called home for the last 35-40 years
21 may not be here. I mean I'm good, but I can't find
22 employment where there isn't any.
23 MS. DUNN: I think that's where the role
24 of IT and, you know, other innovative ways of looking at
25 employment come in --
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
29
1 MS. KISIEL: Yep.
2 MS. DUNN: -- you know, people can do
3 from their homes.
4 MS. KISIEL: Absolutely.
5 MS. DUNN: But I don't know who is doing
6 that piece. That sometimes is where I wonder about what
7 do the field counselors think you're doing and what do
8 you think the field counselors are doing, and I know
9 you're in a position to speak to both, but maybe you
10 could identify the, when you say attitude, what do we
11 need to do to address that attitude problem? It's going
12 to be difficult to take people who have characterologic
13 issues and are not motivated, they're not going to be the
14 ones who are out there knocking on doors to get jobs, we
15 can assess that --
16 MS. KISIEL: Right.
17 MS. DUNN: -- but the piece in terms of
18 the employers, what are we doing --
19 MS. KISIEL: That's what we're doing,
20 that's a big part of who we are and what we do is
21 educating those employers, talking to those employers.
22 MS. DUNN: Okay. How do you do that?
23 Who is doing it and how's it done?
24 MS. KISIEL: Counselors do it, the
25 employment specialists do it, we do it. You know, when
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
30
1 Karen sets up informational interviews or job shadowing,
2 she goes to the employer, she talks to them about what we
3 are and what we do, and she helps them --
4 MS. DUNN: So that would be the Kalamazoo
5 area?
6 MS. KISIEL: No, that would be the
7 Training Center. The Kalamazoo office has their own
8 staff. It's a team approach.
9 MR. GAYNOR: No, when she's going out is
10 what she meant.
11 MS. KISIEL: Pardon me?
12 MR. GAYNOR: When she's going out.
13 MS. KISIEL: When she's going out, yes.
14 MS. DUNN: Not at the home district for
15 the person, where they're coming from is what I'm asking.
16 MS. KISIEL: Well, if we're managing the
17 program at our Center. You know what I'm saying? If
18 they don't come to our Center, then the home counselor
19 would manage that.
20 MS. PARKER: And I'd like to interject
21 here, too, because this is getting to kind of the heart
22 of some of the things that my subcommittee also are
23 identifying as issues, because what we've heard from the
24 people in the field offices is that this is a big -- this
25 identifying employers that are considered appropriate or
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
31
1 willing to employ clients is a, not a concerted effort,
2 it's hit and miss depending upon what office you're --
3 what office we're talking to. There is no major
4 initiative to do that. And technology as a tool isn't
5 necessarily adopted -- I'll just say it -- isn't
6 necessarily adopted by counselors generally, all
7 counselors. So what Marianne's question was appropriate;
8 you know you have someone living in a rural area, they
9 own their home, they've always lived there, they have
10 their supports there, they have all the things a human
11 being wants and needs in terms of love and care and
12 friends and familiarity, and there's no reason why that
13 person if they're interested in learning technology can
14 not be trained to do a job that's a remote occupation,
15 happens all over the world.
16 MS. KISIEL: Absolutely, and you're
17 right. This particular gentleman didn't have that
18 interest, but yes, you're right.
19 MS. PARKER: But I'm saying what -- I am
20 telling you as a commissioner who's been going out now
21 for months and talking to people who work for the
22 Commission that there isn't -- there doesn't seem to me
23 to be a step and a recognition in that direction.
24 MR. RODGERS: Actually --
25 MS. PARKER: And I'm saying it, Ed, I
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
32
1 just want to say it, and -- because I --
2 MR. RODGERS: No, that's okay, but then
3 let me respond, because actually we've started that
4 process.
5 MS. PARKER: I know you have, because
6 you've told me so in the last couple weeks, but I want to
7 make sure that I'm saying it aloud here, because what I
8 want to know is what's changing at the Training Center
9 since you've become the director, what were -- what are
10 we going to look forward to in terms of what's different?
11 How are we going to be better, and how do we know it?
12 MS. KISIEL: Much more emphasis on the
13 technology. That is a huge goal for me. I see that,
14 I've always seen that.
15 MS. PARKER: Okay. I'm not doubting you.
16 MS. KISIEL: No, and I'm answering your
17 question. I see that, you know, we've worked with
18 companies like National Telecommuting Institute where
19 we've helped people to get jobs, I have. I can speak to
20 me. I have done that, where I've worked with them to get
21 people jobs working out of their home, you know, they
22 represent different companies. Sometimes that's
23 successful, sometimes it isn't, I mean there's so many
24 variables. But I think the technology piece is huge, and
25 as I said to you, as I look toward what is our future,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
33
1 that's going to be what makes us cutting edge.
2 MS. PARKER: Right.
3 MR. RODGERS: And one of the things we've
4 done that Lisa's part of is that we have created a
5 committee of members of the Training Center, the Business
6 and Development Program, the Voc Rehab Program, and the
7 BEP Program who are reviewing how all of this is done in
8 terms of career development and coordination of services,
9 and they will be presenting to me, I think the deadline
10 is in March, isn't it, Lisa?
11 MS. KISIEL: Yeah, March 14.
12 MR. RODGERS: They will be putting
13 together a report and a proposed management plan to
14 better improve those services.
15 MS. PARKER: That's great news.
16 MR. RODGERS: So there is a recognition
17 there. They've already had their first meeting, and
18 they've already started that process.
19 And since we're talking about recognizing
20 issues and going forward, the other one that I'll address
21 right now rather than in my remarks, because it was
22 brought up with Marianne's questions to Lisa, we have
23 also put together a second committee that is reviewing
24 assessments and training needs of all our clients, and
25 there are members of the Training Center, again, the
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
34
1 Business and Development Program, the Voc Rehab and the
2 BEP Program, are working on that review and creating,
3 again, a management plan to recognize and deal with
4 improving those services. So those are two things that
5 happened that I think we started in December as a
6 recognition after reviewing what we did the first year
7 that this Bureau was in existence, and we've started that
8 process. Now, have we done it yet? No. But we are
9 going to do it, and we recognize that these are issues
10 both you and Marianne raised that are appropriate.
11 MR. GAYNOR: May we get the list of who's
12 on those?
13 MR. RODGERS: Sure.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Thanks.
15 MR. ROSE: Can I say something? I'm
16 Charlie Rose.
17 DR. MOGK: Yes, go ahead, Charlie.
18 MR. ROSE: I'm with Michigan Protection
19 and Advocacy Service, I'm a rehab counselor by education.
20 And one piece I've always felt that I think you guys are
21 doing exactly what you do, you need to do with the
22 technology, with giving committees, but I think it --
23 sometimes we -- every, across the line, all disabilities,
24 other folks forget, you get jobs because you meet people,
25 because you talk to people. I mean it's because your dad
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
35
1 knows so and so's brother who works there. I mean it's
2 all connections. I mean you can have the greatest resume
3 in the world, and you're going up against a hundred other
4 resumes and, you know, ten of them, the board of
5 director's president knows their son is applying. So I
6 mean regardless of your skills, I think -- and I say this
7 across the board again -- I think people forget, you just
8 got to be seen, you have to go to places you want to
9 work, I mean you have to talk to people, you have explain
10 to them, tell them what you do, what you can do, what you
11 can't do, and I think sometimes we forget that that part
12 is a huge part. I mean we get educated, we get IT
13 involved; yeah, it looks great on paper, but you know
14 what, people don't care. They hire people because they
15 know them or they know someone related to them, I mean
16 point blank, I mean, I think it's -- that's my opinion.
17 MS. KISIEL: Well, and I think that's
18 true with the Career -- you know, that's exactly what
19 we're focusing on with the Career Exploration Program is
20 helping people to market themselves --
21 MR. ROSE: Right, yeah.
22 MS. KISIEL: -- you know, to be able to
23 ask questions to get information that helps them to be
24 able to handle themselves in an interview and how to talk
25 about their disability and how to talk about, you know,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
36
1 their skills.
2 MR. ROSE: I think it sort of has to go
3 beyond that; I think they have to get the folks out there
4 talking, knocking on doors, saying, hey, I'm so and so,
5 you know, I'm 45 years old, I do this, I do this, I'm
6 looking for a job, hey, keep me in mind. You know what,
7 that's going to go a long ways --
8 MS. KISIEL: Absolutely.
9 MR. ROSE: -- when they're going through
10 resumes and they say, oh, my gosh, yeah, that guy always
11 is around here, I mean he seems like he'd be a good
12 fit --
13 MS. KISIEL: That's right.
14 MR. ROSE: -- you know what I mean.
15 MS. KISIEL: The top two ways people find
16 employment is cold calling and networking.
17 MR. ROSE: Right. And it's all who you
18 know.
19 MS. DUNN: Could you speak a little --
20 again, Marianne Dunn. Could you speak a little to the
21 interface between, I don't know if it would be Karen and
22 the employment specialist in the field, is that a direct
23 link? Where does the employment specialist factor --
24 MS. KISIEL: That is a direction --
25 MS. DUNN: -- as far as your role?
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
37
1 MS. KISIEL: -- that needs to be evolved,
2 because I think -- I see a link there. I think, you
3 know, they're definitely communicating with the home
4 counselor. One of the things I'm working hard to do,
5 too, is help our Center staff to know more about what the
6 other programs in the agency do, because they are fairly
7 sequestered. You know, they can't be here today because
8 they're teaching, you know. So one of the benefits of
9 Ed's plan about having us to have those breaks in our
10 schedule is that, for instance, in March Karen Wolfe is
11 coming to speak, who if any of you are not aware is an
12 amazing proponent of transition and employment for blind
13 individuals, she's awesome, and if you get a chance to
14 hear her, she's at Lansing Community College, you should.
15 So that gives them an opportunity to come out and be with
16 people in the field and, you know, do that connecting so
17 that we can begin really bridging, you know, breaking
18 down the silos and working together, so that when Karen
19 says, hey, so and so -- and I'm saying Karen because we
20 don't have another person for that position yet, for the
21 second position -- so that if someone says, you know
22 what, so and so is interested in this particular field,
23 I've got a resume for them, here it is, you know, they've
24 done this and this and this, all of that goes in the
25 report, and all of that is sent to the home counselor,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
38
1 all of that information is bundled and communicated after
2 their program at the Center ends. But I mean I see more
3 opportunity for yet even more connection on that level,
4 which is why I'm excited about expanding her program,
5 because right now she has every VR customer, which means
6 she may have 25 people at a time, where if we split that
7 out, then that gives her more time to be able to do that
8 kind of work as well.
9 MR. GAYNOR: I don't mean to bypass you,
10 Lisa, but, Ed, this might be in your committee or the,
11 what you just discussed, but I think this, the direct
12 question is, is the Training Center, Karen, communicating
13 with the employee -- employment specialist right now,
14 because we're not seeing that?
15 MS. KISIEL: No, you wouldn't be seeing
16 that right now.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Okay.
18 MS. KISIEL: At this point, we have two
19 of them.
20 MR. RODGERS: We have two, one in what
21 two regions?
22 MS. KISIEL: Yeah, one in the west region
23 and one in the east region.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Right, one in the east.
25 MR. RODGERS: And we're in the process of
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
39
1 getting permission to create a position for the central
2 region.
3 MS. KISIEL: Right. So that in itself is
4 being developed.
5 MR. RODGERS: And as Josie and Michael
6 Hudson and LeeAnn discovered when they talked to our
7 financial people, it's not easy hurdles we go through
8 when we get permission to create and pay for and hire
9 somebody, but we are cognizant and recognize that it's an
10 issue, that we're spread real thin in that area, so we
11 are going to be eventually have a third person working
12 the central region.
13 MR. GAYNOR: But if a third person is
14 hired and the two aren't coordinating and telling each
15 other, it won't matter.
16 MR. RODGERS: Well, they will be
17 coordinating, obviously, they will be working together.
18 MS. KISIEL: That's a goal that we have.
19 I mean I would see -- you know, I'm just visioning here,
20 so don't write that down that this is tomorrow -- but I
21 would see that the current planning counselors at the
22 Training Center and the employment specialist, I would
23 love to get them together on all that, you know, I want
24 them to know each other. Kind of like Charlie was
25 saying, you know, that whole name and face, you know,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
40
1 have that be -- I mean we're already starting to do some
2 of that; they are not working together in lockstep, that
3 is true. That is a goal that we have.
4 MR. RODGERS: And again, that's one of
5 those cultural things, Gary, that we're working on
6 changing.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Okay.
8 MR. RODGERS: You just don't change
9 culture overnight, as you're well aware of.
10 MR. GAYNOR: I just wanted to make sure
11 that it was out there.
12 MR. RODGERS: The problem is recognized
13 and we're working on it, --
14 MS. KISIEL: Yes.
15 MR. RODGERS: -- it's just that I have on
16 my desk about 27 problems.
17 MR. GAYNOR: I know.
18 MS. KISIEL: And let me be --
19 (Multiple speakers.)
20 MS. KISIEL: We have lots of -- there are
21 lots of areas that can -- you know, I would hope that
22 we're not focusing just on the things -- you know,
23 obviously your job is to evaluate and to help us to do
24 our jobs better, and we appreciate that. There are a lot
25 of really good things happening, too.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
41
1 MS. DUNN: Well, I think the adjustment
2 to blindness we've talked about is just so important, and
3 I mean an individual has to feel comfortable and
4 confident, and that's all very, very, very important.
5 MS. KISIEL: It's huge.
6 MS. DUNN: And the piece I have a
7 question about is whether or not, in conjunction with the
8 client, would the Training Center be making
9 recommendations for referral to, for example, Lions World
10 Services or, you know, some specific --
11 MS. KISIEL: We have done that, yes.
12 MS. DUNN: -- training service, like
13 Lions World Service or something of that nature, where
14 there is a specific, you know, a training module that the
15 individual goes through that's more likely to ensure
16 employment in a particular and linked employment area,
17 does that kind of referral come from the Training Center,
18 or is that typically done by the field person once the
19 client's back home?
20 MS. KISIEL: We don't refer to Lions
21 World Services, we refer that information to the home
22 counselor, because we are not, you know, writing their
23 plan.
24 MS. DUNN: Okay.
25 MS. KISIEL: Okay. We will make
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
42
1 recommendations as a result of our training and our
2 experience, then the home counselor and the customer are
3 or the consumer decide what is best for them as we hand
4 that package back.
5 MS. DUNN: Okay.
6 MS. KISIEL: Does that answer your
7 question?
8 MS. DUNN: Yes, it does.
9 MS. KISIEL: If I could just speak real
10 quickly to some dates. College assessment this year is
11 June 15, that's the last two weeks of June that will
12 begin, so just getting that out there. We will be having
13 college prep this year, unless there's something I don't
14 know. And then we're also -- this is just a really new
15 development that kind of happened Monday -- but we're
16 looking at -- I was presented, the west region presented
17 me with an idea about doing a program where we would be
18 jointly working together with some ISDs in the southwest
19 area, and I'm not going to speak specifics because I
20 don't know all that yet, but it's a week-long program
21 called Are You Ready, and it's kind of a pre-transition
22 type program that they're looking at, and they would
23 being looking at us to help with possibly some lodging,
24 and then they would be doing some stuff at Western, and
25 so just some, you know, brainstorming that's going on of
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
43
1 some other programs that we can help our young people to
2 become involved with.
3 MR. RODGERS: And if it's a success, our
4 plan then is to try to do the same thing in the central
5 and eastern region.
6 MS. KISIEL: Yeah, we'd like to do it
7 statewide, that would be a good --
8 MR. GAYNOR: Is that are you ready for
9 college or are you ready for employment?
10 MS. KISIEL: Are you ready for the next
11 step.
12 (Multiple speakers.)
13 MS. KISIEL: These would be real young
14 ones, so probably not necessarily college, you know. I
15 mean it might be, but it's at that -- you that, my son
16 just turned 14, and I said, do you want to go to college,
17 he says, sure. Yeah, because you told me I'm supposed
18 to. You're not living with me forever, so you're going.
19 So, you know --
20 MS. DUNN: Just to clarify,
21 pre-transition, you were referring to an age group, I
22 don't know if the --
23 MS. KISIEL: 14 to 21.
24 MS. DUNN: -- commissioners know that --
25 (Multiple speakers.)
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
44
1 MS. DUNN: -- so yeah, quite young, quite
2 young kids, right, before they would enter the Training
3 Center, correct?
4 MS. KISIEL: Yes. Yes.
5 DR. MOGK: Okay. Any other questions for
6 Lisa or comments about the Training Center or comments
7 from Lisa?
8 MR. SIBLEY: Lisa, I'm curious about --
9 first of all, I'm very pleased to see that the different
10 departments of the Bureau finally seem to be actually
11 working together, having some synergy at some levels,
12 that's been something I've been concerned with for years,
13 so I'm very pleased to see that happening. I'm curious
14 about the health element of the people there. I mean
15 obviously you have nurses on staff so you can deal with
16 some health issues. Do you work with people on their
17 personal health, and I don't know about fitness, but you
18 know what I'm saying, as far as maintaining their own
19 health?
20 MS. KISIEL: We do. We have -- we do
21 nutrition education, we do -- the nurses do do diabetic
22 education, we do have a fitness class, because
23 statistically individuals with disabilities, especially
24 acquired disabilities, you know, a different population
25 than those of us who were born this way -- not that I can
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
45
1 really consider myself to have a disability, but
2 anyway -- you know, people become more lethargic,
3 especially when they're depressed, and so we do put some
4 emphasis on the physical fitness, nutrition planning, the
5 diabetic management, other health, you know, conditions,
6 management of that. I've -- I would like to expand that
7 even more. I mean, as I told you when I started this, I
8 have a lot of ideas, it's just that, as Ed said, it
9 doesn't all change in a minute, and it, even for me it
10 takes longer sometimes than I would like. I wish I had
11 the wand to just fix it all.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Sounds familiar.
13 MS. KISIEL: Yes. But yes, we do address
14 those health concerns. And if you're -- I will be honest
15 with you and say, many of the consumers that are referred
16 to us do have some, you know, fairly significant health
17 concerns.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Remind if I'm wrong, Lisa,
19 isn't there a fitness room there at the Center with
20 treadmills?
21 MS. KISIEL: There is, with some brand
22 new beautiful equipment.
23 MR. GAYNOR: I thought so. Okay.
24 MS. KISIEL: Yep, it's awesome, yes. And
25 we've been doing evening fitness classes. One of our
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
46
1 student assistants does, you know, she gets out the yoga
2 mats and they all stretch and, you know, they -- they're
3 really -- we do focus on that. They bowl, they go
4 swimming, you know, because part of our requirement by
5 the federal regs is that we need to address health, rec
6 and leisure, so, and we do that.
7 DR. MOGK: Okay.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you very much.
9 MS. KISIEL: Thank you.
10 MS. DUNN: Yeah, thank you.
11 DR. MOGK: Thank you, Lisa.
12 Ed, you're on.
13 MR. RODGERS: Thank you, ma'am. I hope
14 you all got yesterday electronically with my report for
15 the first fiscal year that the agency was up and running.
16 As you'll recall, we basically became an agency on
17 October 1, 2012, which was the beginning of the FY,
18 fiscal year for 2013. So we've given you the report, and
19 I can't remember how many pages, I tried to keep it
20 brief, it's about eight pages; it summarizes the
21 activities and events pretty much in each of the
22 divisions, and I encourage you, if you haven't had a
23 chance to read that, to read it. And if you have
24 questions about it, please send e-mails to us, and I'll
25 respond to those, okay. But I don't want to read it to
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
47
1 you today. I don't know about you, but I hate it when I
2 sit in a meeting or a conference and they just simply sit
3 there and read to me. Did everybody get this, I hope?
4 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
5 DR. MOGK: Yes.
6 MR. RODGERS: Okay. Did everybody also
7 get Rob Essenberg's very brief report on the, what's
8 happening with the Business Assistance and Development
9 Program?
10 DR. MOGK: Yes.
11 MR. RODGERS: Okay. So you all have
12 that. We also are copies with us today in both Braille
13 and type 14 print if you would also like copies of those
14 to take with you. Sue can either give them to you now or
15 when the meeting is over or whatever.
16 I did want to touch on a couple of things
17 that are, we believe to be highlights this year. As
18 Josie and Michael and LeeAnn discovered when we met with
19 our financial people from LARA, it's not as easy as we
20 would like it to be. I would like to be like LeeAnn and
21 Gary and people who are in private industry, to be able
22 to snap my fingers and make things happen, but they just
23 don't happen that quickly, and there's a process that we
24 always have to follow. It's not my process, I didn't
25 develop it, it was in existence long before I became a
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
48
1 state employee in '79. So but within that process, we
2 have learned to, shall we say, get along with it and
3 conform with it, but actually achieve some things. As I
4 mentioned early on last year, I was able to talk the
5 governor's office, the senate and the house of
6 representatives into giving us more FTEs, we went from
7 107 to 113; we're in the process of filling the FTEs that
8 were approved, but the process takes a long time. It
9 took us -- and, Lisa, you can answer this question if you
10 know the answer -- it took us I think approximately two
11 or three months to fill Lisa's new position as the
12 assistant director. Is that correct?
13 MS. KISIEL: Four.
14 MR. RODGERS: Four months. There you go.
15 So those are the kind of hurdles. So when I say we're
16 going to do something at this meeting, it doesn't mean
17 it's going to happen in February; most likely it's going
18 to happen in May or June if I'm able to massage the
19 process.
20 One of the things we are excited about is
21 I was able to find money in the budget to get Lisa a new
22 Brailler at the Training Center. Has that been
23 accomplished yet?
24 MS. KISIEL: Well, I didn't say anything
25 about that because it's in the process of being
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
49
1 accomplished.
2 MR. RODGERS: Right. Okay. I
3 understand.
4 MS. KISIEL: So it's expensive and it
5 takes a long time.
6 MR. RODGERS: It does. It's very, very
7 expensive, folks. You remember how much they cost?
8 MS. KISIEL: $47,000.
9 MR. RODGERS: So this is not a small
10 ticket item. And we're excited about that because this
11 is going to enlarge the capabilities of what Lisa can do.
12 I mentioned to you that we do have a
13 couple committees, and I won't belabor those points,
14 recognizing and working on the issues that we think we
15 need to work on.
16 One of the other things our staff is
17 involved in now that I'm really kind of excited about
18 because I think it's something that was probably 20 years
19 late or 15 years late in getting started, and that is
20 four of our employees who are all either totally or
21 almost totally blind are working and are serving on a
22 committee with the techy experts from the Department of
23 Technology, Management and Budget, in other words, DTMB,
24 and they've already had I believe two meetings, and they
25 are coming up with a list of priorities for state web
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
50
1 pages that will be accessible. And as I go around and
2 give speeches, I talk about accessibility in this area
3 because we are woefully behind the ADA in making the
4 state web pages accessible to not just the general public
5 who is blind, but our employees. If you'll recall,
6 20 percent of our staff are blind, and there's other
7 blind folks that work in government, also. For instance,
8 there's a lady who I've known for quite a while that
9 works for MRS who does things with coordinating their
10 hearings, et cetera, she's total, has a dog, and there's
11 web pages she can't access to do her job some days, she
12 has to have somebody do it for her. So we have -- the
13 committee, as I understand it, has, with my input and
14 some input from other staff, have put together a priority
15 list of things to be accomplished this year by that
16 particular committee so that by the end of this fiscal
17 year, those pages will be accessible.
18 The classic example I like to use is one
19 of my employees, even though he's totally blind, is a
20 deer hunter, been hunting since he was a kid before he
21 lost his sight, goes out with his brother, goes out with
22 his two cousins and his uncles, and they go hunting every
23 year, bow and arrow, and rifle. I've said to him, you're
24 not going to catch me out in the woods with you, but I'd
25 probably shoot myself anyways. But to make a long story
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
51
1 short, he can do the hunting, he can't go online and get
2 his hunting license. He either has to have somebody do
3 it for him, or he has to go into a DNR office. So those
4 are the kind of hurdles that we want to eliminate, and I
5 think this committee is a step in the right direction.
6 It took me, I started -- sometimes I
7 don't tell you things because I'm at the initial stage
8 and there's really nothing to tell you yet because I
9 haven't got commitments, but I started last August or
10 September trying to talk DMB into doing this, I finally
11 got at a high enough level of discussion with somebody in
12 DTMB that we're able to create this task force and start
13 them down the road of that. And I'm really excited about
14 that, because one of things that ought to be accessible
15 to everybody, by golly, is the state web page. It's not
16 even accessible to me in some areas. There's one thing
17 that I work on with time and record keeping that I need
18 assistance from Sue because it's totally inaccessible to
19 me. That's ridiculous, because it's a system that's been
20 in place for ten years and is still not accessible. So
21 we're cognizant of these issues, and we are working on
22 them I think, and I think we're heading in the right
23 direction.
24 We do have a list that we have put
25 together and are putting together, it's not complete yet,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
52
1 so I'm not going to share it with you yet, but once I
2 have an idea of where we're going, I'll be able to share
3 it with you, to fill the rest of those positions. One of
4 the things, Marianne, we did look at is whether or not it
5 would be more effective and efficient to have a full-time
6 psychologist working for the Bureau, that then perhaps
7 not only can do the contractual work, but can actually be
8 at it 40 hours a week and be more flexible in terms of
9 devote the energy and time that all our clients deserve.
10 So we are cognizant of that, and we are reviewing that
11 situation, and depending on FTEs and money, we are
12 hopeful that we would be able to accomplish that. That's
13 basically --
14 MS. DUNN: Do you know -- I'm sorry.
15 MR. RODGERS: Go ahead, no, jump in.
16 MS. DUNN: A followup on that. Just what
17 would you say is Dr. Gallagher's involvement now in terms
18 of hours?
19 MR. RODGERS: You know, that's a good
20 question for maybe Lisa to answer, because I'm not sure.
21 MS. DUNN: She left.
22 MS. PARKER: She stepped out.
23 MR. RODGERS: Oh, she stepped out. I
24 apologize. I mean that's a question that perhaps Lisa
25 and Leaman Jones can answer jointly. Lisa.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
53
1 MS. KISIEL: Yes.
2 MR. RODGERS: They would like to know if
3 we know how much time is being put in by the psychologist
4 now for the staff; do you have any idea?
5 MS. DUNN: Dr. Gallagher's time.
6 MS. KISIEL: Oh, he's there one whole day
7 a week for sure.
8 MS. DUNN: Okay. That's at the Training
9 Center?
10 MR. RODGERS: Yes, right.
11 MS. KISIEL: That's at the Training
12 Center. And he works -- I can't speak to any other
13 psychologist.
14 MS. DUNN: Oh, okay. There are others
15 that are contracted with perhaps?
16 MS. KISIEL: Let me say this: When
17 you -- and I also want to be very considerate to my other
18 division director peers, okay, I don't want to speak for
19 them, and I know I've worked on both sides, but I have to
20 know where I am. But I can tell you, as a field
21 counselor, and we all do, when you purchase services for
22 customers, if I have a consumer that I'm working with
23 that I think can benefit from counseling, I can purchase
24 that service.
25 MR. RODGERS: And we have in the past,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
54
1 correct?
2 MS. KISIEL: And I have. And we do with
3 the Training Center now, I can -- that's what I mean to
4 say is I can speak for what we're purchasing at the
5 Center. What I think is important for you all to know is
6 that individuals when they work with their counselor and
7 when they develop their plan, their individual plan for
8 employment, they can talk about the services that they
9 need to help them be successful; and if counseling is
10 part of that, that could be part of that plan. And we
11 could do that in a combination with their insurance
12 benefits, our assistance, you know, that's where the
13 counseling on our part comes in, we work with that
14 person, we say how do we get this service and what do we
15 need to do to help you. We've done that with persons
16 with brain injury, we've done neuropsychological testing.
17 You know, I'm not trying to name drop, but Dr. Fabiano
18 here in town, I've worked with him over at Michigan
19 State. I mean there's, you know, any number of linkages
20 that you can have in communities that have services. So
21 those services can be purchased. I'm not telling you who
22 does, I'm not telling you who doesn't, I'm not telling
23 you who should, that's not my place, I'm just answering
24 the question.
25 MR. RODGERS: So that's my report, Madam
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
55
1 Chair, if Commission has any questions this morning.
2 DR. MOGK: Anybody, any questions?
3 MS. PARKER: I will ask you if you can
4 answer something for the Commission that I know you, that
5 you answered for the Finance Committee. We -- and I'll
6 talk about -- I'm the reporter for the Finance Committee,
7 subcommittee meeting. When we talk about change, and
8 obviously it has to be acknowledged, I mean we're all
9 sitting here now because the governor made a big change
10 consequent to things that weren't being done or were
11 being done that needed to be changed, so there's no
12 question that things had to be different and that your
13 role was to make that occur. One of the things that you
14 were able to share with us was a timeframe, an
15 expectation of, a realistic expectation of the timeframe,
16 and where culture change is involved and where there's so
17 much to be done where one has to prioritize what you do
18 first when everything is important, you were able to give
19 us some sort of idea about how many years we're talking
20 about, and I think it's important that it's said, it's
21 years. So would you -- do you mind if I put you on the
22 spot?
23 MR. RODGERS: No. I just hope I remember
24 what I told you.
25 MS. PARKER: I won't contradict you here.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
56
1 MR. RODGERS: One of the things that I
2 thought was really good in the meeting that I had with --
3 it's the only meeting incidentally -- you know, I have
4 backed off of going into interviews and meetings with you
5 because I wanted you to be able to go in, talk to my
6 employees, talk to people, and not have me looking over
7 their shoulder, because I didn't want to injure or
8 intimidate the process; oh, I better be careful what I
9 say because Director Rodgers is here. So I think this
10 meeting -- I don't recall going and being involved in any
11 other meeting you've had with the staff other than to ask
12 to let me know what you're doing in terms of who you're
13 meeting with, that's all I've ever asked, and I haven't
14 contacted staff and said, okay, what did you talk about,
15 what did they ask you, I've refrained from that, also,
16 because I do want the system to be pure. The governor's
17 created a system that I believe is much more advantageous
18 in the future than the old system, and I think it's a
19 system that long after I'm gone will be working much
20 better than the prior system, and I think the Advisory
21 Commission clearly is a necessity, along with the
22 Michigan Council of Rehabilitation Services, which gives
23 us two oversights instead of one, and that's probably a
24 very good thing to have happen. And when I become an
25 old, old client maybe and need services as an old blind,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
57
1 I'm going to be glad that there's both a commission and
2 an MCRS.
3 But having said all of that, we've said
4 to the folks that you have to realize that we have to
5 live with, as I said earlier, within a system that I have
6 several layers of permission. I need first departmental
7 permission, and because of my background and experience
8 and networking, I have been able to somewhat streamline
9 getting approvals on positions. Okay. It's still slow;
10 as Lisa told you, took us four months to get somebody
11 actually hired to be her assistant at the Training
12 Center. It was something that we needed to do for a
13 variety of reasons, one being that everybody reported to
14 Lisa, which is not a very effective, sound way to do
15 things, that she has 31 or 33 reports.
16 MS. KISIEL: Thirty-five.
17 MR. RODGERS: Thirty-five reports, there
18 you go. And this is something that we think is going to
19 help the Center and will broaden the possibilities of the
20 things Lisa will be able to do because she'll free up
21 some time. That took four months.
22 You also have to look at money. While
23 budget per se is not our issue, what is per se is that we
24 have budgetary constraints in terms of what RSA will
25 allow us to spend things for, or what the state will
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
58
1 allow us to spend out of our general funds. And
2 remember, our general funds are used for matching
3 dollars, and as such, the matching dollars then can be
4 turned into more services. So we're stuck within all
5 that framework. We do have a budget to work with.
6 One of the things we're changing in our
7 culture in terms of budget, and this something we're
8 doing right away, Josie; the culture in the past was
9 there was a thing called a budget tree, which I didn't
10 discover until about two or three weeks ago, because I
11 have some staff that are passive-aggressive, it's only a
12 few, but as passive-aggressive employees, they don't
13 always share everything with me, and sometimes I stumble
14 on to things, and I stumbled on to this budget tree. I
15 didn't know it existed. It's something that was
16 developed by two of my staff members at a fairly high
17 level where they were telling offices and divisions, this
18 is how much money you have to spend. The unintended
19 consequences of such a system of tracking a budget, which
20 government doesn't track it that way, as Josie and
21 Michael and LeeAnn discovered when they had the meeting
22 with our finance people, we don't track that way, the
23 budget is not designed that way, but yet they were
24 placing artificial limits on different offices, which
25 addresses another cultural change about is one region
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
59
1 being favored over another; and as such, some counselors
2 and teachers were under the impression that once that
3 magical figure, whoever had determined what it was, had
4 been passed, that they could no longer spend money. It
5 would be -- it's been like pulling teeth from a kicking
6 bronco to get all of the staff to come to the realization
7 that we have one budget and we all draw down from it.
8 And I've had to be real blunt with the managers and
9 supervisors that I don't ever want to hear one of you say
10 we're out of money, because we're not.
11 For this year and the immediate future,
12 we clearly have sufficient funds to buy the things that
13 our clients need, not that they necessarily want, but the
14 things that they need from us in terms of services. And
15 in the past we've tried to do that in a creative way, but
16 with this budget tree -- and I refuse to call it that, in
17 fact, I refuse to call any of this stuff official, and
18 I've chastised staff and I've told all of the counselors
19 and teachers, this money is yours to spend on things we
20 need to spend it on.
21 We are in the process of Bob Robertson,
22 who is our coordinator of conferences, is in the process
23 now of putting together an in-house retreat for three
24 days. I'm hoping for June or July, I've got some staff
25 chewing at me saying, well, the kids have summer
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
60
1 vacations and stuff, and I understand all that, but we're
2 going to try to hold it in June or July, and one of the
3 topics we're going to discuss with all of the
4 professional staff is how the budget works in detail with
5 some of the information that Josie and Michael and LeeAnn
6 have already gotten, and this is what you need to be
7 doing, you need to be spending the money on the clients
8 that we need to spend on. So that's a cultural change
9 that's going to happen soon.
10 The other things are slower. What I
11 indicated to Josie and the rest of her subcommittee was
12 some things we can change this year, we do have a plan of
13 priorities, we also have some long-range items that are
14 going to take two, three, four, five years, and
15 unfortunately, because of my age, are probably not going
16 to be finished by me, but at least I hope to leave a
17 legacy where we get started. Recognizing, Gary, and
18 creating a couple employee committees where the employees
19 are engaged in reviewing and looking at a problem and
20 coming up with solutions for that problem, that's a
21 process that I've installed as the first director, and
22 hopefully the directors to follow me will expand that and
23 actually accomplish more.
24 When I leave here, and it's not going to
25 be tomorrow or the next day or maybe not even next year,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
61
1 guys, just so I'm not talking out the door, because as
2 Sue always tells me, don't you dare talk about
3 retirement, but there's going to come a time that Ed
4 Rodgers will retire, and as such, hopefully I will leave
5 this place in better shape than it was when I walked in
6 the door. That was my number one priority. I was given
7 a mission to come in and straighten up what was described
8 to me as a mess, and hopefully we've started that with
9 some accountabilities, with changing the culture. Some
10 of the things will happen in a year, some will happen two
11 years, some will happen three years.
12 We do have a list of things we want to
13 accomplish, at least in my mind. Have I put it to paper
14 yet; not necessarily. Because what happens with all of
15 our jobs, all of the jobs you have, you may have four
16 things you want to do today and something interferes with
17 that so you don't get to it. I spent yesterday, I was in
18 the office yesterday -- this is not a brag -- I just was
19 there until 6:30 cleaning up everything I could because
20 I'm going to be out of the office next week at a
21 conference, and I had clean up some stuff before I left.
22 I didn't get to everything I wanted to get to, so after
23 this meeting, I've got to go back to the office, and I
24 don't know when I'll be done, hopefully by 6:00 or 7:00
25 so I can eat dinner or something. So, you know, that
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
62
1 interferes with it, too. I can't remember specifics,
2 Josie --
3 MS. PARKER: You said it, you pretty much
4 anywhere from a year, depending upon the issue, to four
5 or five?
6 MR. RODGERS: Yes. For instance, one of
7 the things that -- and Sue's about to kick me, but I'm
8 going to say it anyways. One of the things I mentioned
9 when I first came in, because somebody when we get to
10 public meant may ask about it, I had mentioned whether or
11 not we need to relook at whether or not Michigan should
12 have a school for the blind, and I'm not going to give
13 you the spiel on that, you've heard me say everybody but
14 us has one, so when something like that happens, you have
15 to say, are we doing it right or wrong. We are still in
16 stage one of looking at that as a project in that we are
17 still gathering information. I've had contact with
18 schools for the blind and blind services throughout the
19 country, we're in the process of putting together all the
20 information, and it is my medium-range goal before this
21 fiscal year is up is to create a committee of both staff
22 and outsiders who will look then at the information we've
23 gathered, maybe do some more information gathering, and
24 determine if it's something we should even have serious
25 discussion about, because it's not something we should
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
63
1 leap into with both feet without knowing the lay of the
2 land.
3 So those are the kind of things we're
4 looking at, that's the future we're looking at. My main
5 goal is to improve the effective and efficiency of the
6 agency. I think we've done that. I've gotten -- I don't
7 know what kind of feedback you're getting, you're going
8 to tell me in your report -- and people sometimes like to
9 stroke you because you're the boss -- I am getting
10 positive feedback from a lot of staff that they feel
11 better about coming to work because they know what
12 they're supposed to do, and they're happy because they've
13 had some guidance as to where we go, it's just not
14 everybody for themselves, and they seem to appreciate
15 that.
16 Now, they haven't liked some of the
17 things I do, like we've kind of reined some people in on
18 their scheduling, because we want to know where people
19 are and making sure they're doing their jobs instead of,
20 where is so and so; well, she's not in today; well, where
21 is she; I don't know, you know, we've kind of eliminated
22 some of that culture already. So we've made the present
23 or immediate changes that we should have made the first
24 year, and I really think -- and staff helped me, all the
25 managers helped me put together my report, so that that's
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
64
1 just not Ed Rodgers' view of things. If you look at that
2 report thoroughly in terms of how we summarized each
3 division, that was with the assistance and the
4 cooperation and contribution from all of the supervisors
5 and managers.
6 I have a management team that is made up
7 of the division directors, and I also have a management
8 team that is made up of the supervisor and managers in
9 terms of direct reports, so that includes all the
10 regional managers, the assistant regional managers, the
11 person who is a manager in Mike Pemble's division,
12 et cetera, that person who runs the BEP, the assistant
13 who runs the BEP, all of those people are on a committee
14 that meets every other month, and we've accomplished some
15 really good things with that engagement and involvement
16 with the managers and the supervisors.
17 My next step now, and I'm about to
18 announce something that the staff hasn't heard yet, is
19 sometime by March I hope to create an Employee Engagement
20 Committee to review such items as Bureau of Communication
21 within, are we doing a good job with communicating
22 amongst ourselves to make sure that we do an effective
23 and efficient job for our clients. I'm going to create a
24 committee that's going to be made up of employees, not
25 supervisors, not managers, not division directors, I want
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
65
1 to hear from the field service. I'm going to be
2 accepting nominations from the managers and supervisors,
3 and also volunteers who would like to work on this
4 committee, because I think if we engage and get input
5 from the people that are out there doing the work -- some
6 of your questions today have been very good, the
7 questions Marianne raised about assessment and
8 transition, and Josie's questions, and your questions,
9 Joe, about technology, I want to now hear from the troops
10 that are out there dealing with these issues on a
11 day-to-day basis, because I do think we have to work hard
12 this year at improving our coordination and our internal
13 communication with each other so that we can do a better
14 job. And I hope that answers your question, Josie.
15 MS. PARKER: Uh-huh. Thank you.
16 MS. DUNN: Switching gears, Ed, again,
17 this is Marianne. I had a number of questions about the
18 Business Assistance and Development Program. I'm
19 wondering if you could just spend a few minutes
20 summarizing what it is, the function, role, purpose of
21 that position, and where you see it going, what you have,
22 what expectations you have for that division in the
23 future.
24 MR. RODGERS: Right. You should look at,
25 when you get a chance if you haven't, look at the little
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
66
1 thing that Rob did, put together. Rob's division is
2 going to evolve over the next months and years, it's one
3 of those things -- and as I'm speaking, I'm actually
4 looking at my iPhone because I had asked my boss a
5 question which I, with some information that I wanted to
6 share with you. And just a second, I may have the answer
7 that I want.
8 I am aware that there's going to be a
9 press release sometime today by the department,
10 supposedly the e-mail that I just got says that at 10:00
11 a.m. a press release is going to be issued concerning the
12 BEP and the Anderson Project. The Anderson Project is
13 the Anderson Building, which is the home of the Michigan
14 House of Representatives. We have been involved in
15 putting together a new partnership with several entities,
16 including the House of Representatives, the BEP Program,
17 Rob Essenberg as the director of the Business Assistance
18 and Development Program, and the Michigan Restaurant
19 Association. There will be a blind licensed vendor who
20 will be running the food services at the Anderson
21 Building, but there will also be a training module that
22 will be run by Rob Essenberg in terms of preparing people
23 to actually go out and run stands and cafeterias and
24 large facilities and catering, et cetera. We're going to
25 be working hand-in-hand with the Restaurant Association.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
67
1 There has been some sensitive and confidential
2 discussions. After having gone through what we went
3 through with Tim Horton's, we learned a couple lessons
4 about how to get something accomplished. I don't have
5 with me the press release; as I understand it, it's going
6 to go out this morning, so I don't want to get into any
7 more details than that.
8 But we are moving forward with expanding
9 and improving the BEP. The job of the BEP Program under
10 federal and state law is to create an opportunity for
11 blind entrepreneurs who want to be involved in food
12 services, and as such, they get a preference, much like
13 the veterans' preference. We are in the process of
14 putting out now an RFP to renew the vending part our
15 services, because the BEP has several kinds of services;
16 they have vending services where, you know, you go and
17 you buy candy bar or a pop or a sandwich or whatever in a
18 vending machine, they have snack bars -- and my
19 terminology may be wrong because I'm not well versed like
20 Constance Zanger is. Constance would have been here
21 today, but she's taking a much needed vacation, and she
22 had planned this for several months, and I couldn't yank
23 her and make her come here after she bought airline
24 tickets, et cetera. So I apologize because she can do a
25 much better job than I can probably in answering this.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
68
1 But we have the vending part, we have the snack bar part,
2 then we have cafeterias. For instance, the Anderson
3 Building will in effect be what I would call a cafeteria;
4 whether or not Constance will call that a cafeteria, I'm
5 not sure. So we have right now 72 operators is the last
6 head count I had who are operating various times of types
7 of facilities, they have gone through training, some of
8 them went to the Training Center, all of them had to go
9 through the BEP Training Center.
10 We're also, as I indicated, putting
11 together a committee that is looking at career
12 development and looking at assessments, et cetera, and
13 part of that committee's task is to look at the BEP and
14 how it functions within the total system, as well as how
15 it will function with Rob Essenberg. Rob Essenberg is in
16 the process of putting together a master plan for the
17 next three to five years, that master plan will lay out
18 his goals and his mission for that program. He wants to
19 expand what we do with the concept of BEP and actually
20 take the Bureau to the next step, which is helping blind
21 entrepreneurs who are not part of the BEP. That will be,
22 that, along with contributing to the training module will
23 be his two main focuses. For instance, I know that he
24 has worked with several people who are in the private
25 sector now in terms of business assistance and
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
69
1 development.
2 So we'll have Rob here at your next
3 meeting, Marianne. If you have some specific questions
4 in terms of details, if you'll send those to me in
5 writing, by e-mail, I'll have Rob respond to those for
6 you.
7 MS. DUNN: Yeah. There are just a lot of
8 terms and things that are confusing.
9 MR. RODGERS: I know, they still confuse
10 me, and I've been here over a year. Because under
11 Randolph-Sheppard we call something one thing, under
12 PA-260 we may call it something else, the BEP staff may
13 call it a third thing, and Rodgers may call it a fourth
14 thing. Like I say, I used the term cafeteria this
15 morning for the Anderson Building, and I'm not sure if
16 that's the proper term.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Do you look at Rob as
18 essentially growing the BEP, or is he going to do other
19 things that --
20 MR. RODGERS: He's going to be enhancing
21 our services to the private sector, and at the same time,
22 assisting with certain facets of the BEP. One of the
23 things he's involved in is the coordination of the BEP,
24 his division, the Training Center and Voc Rehab, in terms
25 of setting up training modules, because Bob -- or Rob
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
70
1 brings -- I've got too many Bobs and Robs working for me.
2 I have Mikes and Bobs and Robs and Michaels, there's
3 about eight or ten of them in my life. Rob will be a
4 great asset because he ran a very high-profile facility
5 for many years. He took over a location, for example,
6 that was grossing about 200,000, and when I talked him
7 into taking this job which we were creating, he
8 interviewed, he was the best interview, he was a
9 slam-dunk interview, so it made a real easy writeup for
10 civil service benefit to hire him. Having said that, he
11 took that $200,000 facility, and when he left, it was
12 grossing over 600,000 a year. This guy is -- I'm a fan
13 of Rob Essenberg's. I mean he is very polished, he is
14 very knowledgable, he brings all kinds of background and
15 experience. Growing up he had sight and he started
16 losing it. He went to both the Blind School and the
17 Muskegon Public Schools, so he has both those
18 backgrounds, he's a former client of the agency. He just
19 is -- you know, I'm Irish and lucky some days, I just get
20 real lucky with some of the people that we've put in
21 position, like Lisa and Rob, like Shannon McVoy in the
22 western district, there's a great staff, and we've
23 promoted people that needed to be promoted I think this
24 first year.
25 DR. MOGK: I have a question, Ed, about
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
71
1 the, about Rob's writeup, and it just says toward the
2 goal of creating a standard business plan that all
3 vendors will follow, the director has reviewed five
4 different plans and three of them are finalized and the
5 other two should be up and running. Those are all for
6 new BEP sites, I presume, but --
7 MR. RODGERS: You know, I'm not sure, to
8 be honest with you, how --
9 (Multiple speakers.)
10 DR. MOGK: So I'm confused about a
11 standard plan versus five different plans.
12 MR. RODGERS: I think he's referring
13 there to clients. When we say business plans, one of the
14 things we do in and out of, it's both a BEP issue and a
15 non-BEP issue, we assist individual startup businesses,
16 that's one of the things Rob's doing, and as such, he is
17 serving on a mini subcommittee -- the poor guy is on
18 about 27 committees -- he's serving on a mini committee
19 which is now reviewing. In the past, the Voc Rehab folks
20 have approved grants of money for individuals to start up
21 businesses. It was done on a very, what I would term a
22 loosey-goosey way of doing it. It wasn't following any
23 structure, it wasn't following any standard things that
24 you should be looking at in terms of what can we do to
25 help somebody start up a business, and what are the
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
72
1 things that we should be looking for. We don't want to
2 throw money away, we don't want to start a business and
3 then two years they'll be out of business. So Rob has
4 been working with that process in terms of reviewing the
5 business plans that are presented by the Voc Rehab
6 division. That division is called the Consumer
7 Assistance Division, and I'm like Lisa, I'm going to
8 probably this year, as an aside, change a couple of
9 names. I always get Consumers Assistance Division I
10 think is a little --
11 MS. KISIEL: Services.
12 MR. RODGERS: Services. There you go,
13 see. It's a little misleading. I call them the Voc
14 Rehab folks. So he's already been involved in reviewing
15 and approving five different plans to help blind
16 entrepreneurs start businesses. For instance, the one
17 person is starting up an auto mechanic business, he's
18 trained, he's certified in several different areas, he's
19 made a personal investment of money, and we have made a
20 large contribution to his business, which is up and
21 running. For instance, some of the things we did was
22 give him money to buy some more equipment he was going to
23 need, we gave him some money to do some advertising, we
24 gave him some money to be able to have so much money on
25 hand. You know, you got to have cash flow, in any
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
73
1 business, you got to have some cash in the cash register.
2 We're helping him with web development. So there's
3 some -- we have purchased through vendors some assistance
4 in those areas. So Rob is getting deeply involved in
5 that process, too, and I think that's what he's referring
6 to.
7 DR. MOGK: Okay. Does anybody else have
8 any questions for Ed?
9 MS. DUNN: I did have a question. And
10 Ed, I know you want me to direct some of these to you in
11 writing, but since Lisa is here, the last area of Rob's
12 report, there have been preliminary discussions with the
13 director of the Training Center to identify a complete
14 training process. Could you elaborate what on what that
15 is? It seems a little inconsistent with what you were
16 saying, that the Training Center is not going to be doing
17 specific vocational training. Is --
18 MS. KISIEL: We are not doing -- we are
19 not, as I said, providing vocational training per se.
20 What I think that he's referring to is that we have begun
21 looking at the business, the BEP assessment, which we do
22 for individuals, and we are reviewing that. And sort of
23 speaking to a little bit of what LeeAnn asked, as far as,
24 and then Ed added to, the reports that they have to do
25 and the things that are expected of them as operators,
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
74
1 that we would work together as a team to make sure that
2 we put together a training module, if you will, that
3 suits the needs of the programs that are asking for our
4 service. So that, for instance, you know, the college
5 assessment has components, so the BEP assessment would be
6 reviewed, they're going to make changes, we're going to
7 talk about how we can help them to do those assessments
8 most effectively. If there's training that, you know, if
9 an individual comes to us interested in the program, how
10 can we do that. That's I think what he's referring to.
11 MS. DUNN: Okay.
12 MS. KISIEL: Okay. So it wouldn't be a
13 certified program per se, it's -- do you understand what
14 I'm saying? It's not accredited for financial aid or
15 anything like that.
16 MS. DUNN: Uh-huh.
17 MS. KISIEL: Does that answer your
18 question?
19 MS. DUNN: Well, it sounds like it's in
20 development.
21 MS. KISIEL: It's -- absolutely.
22 MR. RODGERS: Evolving is the word I've
23 been using. Rob's whole division is evolving, and it
24 probably won't look the same in two years as it does now.
25 Because it is evolving, we think there's some needs
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
75
1 there, and Rob's going to develop a management plan to
2 address the needs of our clients in those areas.
3 MS. DUNN: And would that be then also
4 the interface with the employment specialist; is that the
5 position?
6 MR. RODGERS: Yes, yes, yes.
7 MS. DUNN: Okay. That piece where we're
8 going to be working with prospective employers and
9 creating readiness there in terms of placing clients?
10 MR. RODGERS: Sure, that's right. It's
11 also going to phase -- it's going to enlarge what I
12 believe is a necessity that we haven't addressed in this
13 agency very well, and that is creating jobs. We want to
14 be job creators, too.
15 MS. DUNN: Exactly.
16 MR. RODGERS: We're creating that
17 position for the auto mechanic. We have another person
18 who just, Rob just approved with his little subcommittee
19 the plan for this person to start a business. This
20 person is starting a business, a clothing retail business
21 that is -- and I know I'm not going to use the right
22 words, and Lisa or Sue will correct me because I'm not
23 into this stuff -- but a consignment business where, for
24 instance, if you have a suit that you no longer like or
25 no longer fits you or whatever, but you've only worn it
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
76
1 four times, you take it to the store on consignment and
2 then that lady will sell it for you and, you know, she'll
3 make some money and you'll make some money. So we
4 approved that plan.
5 Lisa, do you remember any of the other
6 examples?
7 MS. KISIEL: Of business plans?
8 MR. RODGERS: Yeah.
9 MS. KISIEL: I'm not actually familiar
10 with the other three.
11 MR. RODGERS: Okay. There's been a total
12 of five, so those are the two I remember off the top of
13 my head.
14 MS. KISIEL: And the only reason I know
15 of those two is because I knew those people.
16 MS. DUNN: In terms of ongoing support
17 for those individuals, you know, what I see often is a
18 breakdown in individuals, just like the human population
19 in general, those who are self-starters and are going to
20 be successful because it's in them, and others who are
21 really struggling and need a lot a guidance, need a lot
22 of support. In terms of setting up businesses, are we
23 going to be screening for individuals who have that kind
24 of chutzpah and are on their own and it's mainly support,
25 or are we going to be doing ongoing support for some of
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
77
1 these individuals to maintain the business that --
2 MR. RODGERS: It will be ongoing in the
3 areas that we think we can assist to make the business
4 go. We're not going to hold their hand forever, but what
5 we are going to do is make sure that they get up and
6 running, they're on solid ground, and that one of the
7 things that Rob will be doing in the future is working
8 with those individuals to make sure. For instance, the
9 fellow that has started the auto mechanic business, one
10 of the problems he's having right now is web development,
11 so we've either contracted already or are contracting
12 with a web development person to assist him in getting
13 that accomplished, because nowadays everything is
14 internet. Let's face it, people go looking for services
15 on the internet probably a lot more than they do in terms
16 of phone books or driving around town.
17 MS. DUNN: Okay. Thanks.
18 DR. MOGK: Ed, you mentioned the school
19 for the blind as one of the priorities. Are you
20 comfortable mentioning any others that you might have in
21 mind, even though they're not engraved in stone, so we
22 have a sense of what direction you're -- what your big
23 vision is?
24 MR. RODGERS: Well, I would say, and the
25 blind school is but one project. I don't want to
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
78
1 over-emphasize that over everything else. Our immediate
2 number one goal and priority has to be to enhance and
3 improve our service delivery, I mean both short term and
4 long term. I would say in conjunction with that goal or
5 mission that we want to accomplish in the next year or
6 two, I think we're at a point with this agency, there's
7 sufficient funds, at least now, and I want to make sure
8 that we're utilizing those funds to our fullest
9 capabilities. And I also want to, if I can in the next
10 year or two, there are staff -- just this morning several
11 people have raised issues that are perhaps future staff
12 needs or staff needs we should be trying to fill. When I
13 completed my first year, I looked around the agency and
14 said -- and I just don't want to throw money at something
15 just to throw it. I agree with Gary when he made the
16 statement, we want to deliver services at one of the
17 meetings, but we just don't throw money at it.
18 I think realistically this agency really
19 should have 125 to 135 employees, because I've got a list
20 of needs that I really think in the next year or two we
21 ought to be filling. I'm up to 113, so that's a
22 long-range goal, getting the legislature and the
23 administration up to 135 is going to be tough, but long
24 range I want to work on that, because there are some
25 needs we need to fill, and you've only got so many in
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
79
1 your head count. Because we talked in our meeting with
2 Josie and her subcommittee about head count. Not only
3 does the legislature dictate our spending plan,
4 regardless of how much money we have, they also dictate
5 what's called head count or full-time equivalencies or
6 FTEs, and as such, I can only have so many FTEs up to the
7 limit that the legislature gives us. So long range, I
8 want to up the FTE count. Now, probably my department
9 won't want to hear that today, hopefully they're not
10 listening, but realistically I think we need to
11 long-range do that. So delivery of services would be
12 one. In conjunction with that would be enhancement of
13 the FTE count, enlarging it.
14 We have been working the first year and
15 are working this year at making sure that we're doing a
16 good job of spending the money. I just don't want to
17 give somebody a check for 35,000 and say go have fun and
18 I hope your business works. I want to spend the 35,000
19 on the things that that individual needs to get started.
20 And I use that figure because that's roughly how much
21 money in one of the businesses we've authorized. So it's
22 a large contribution. These are not small endeavors.
23 And we're changing the culture. Changing
24 the culture will be an ongoing goal and long-range
25 mission of the agency. The agency has some great
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
80
1 employees. Without get into specifics, I have been
2 really lucky and inherited a very dedicated and wonderful
3 staff. We've got some great people out there doing some
4 marvelous things, and a lot of times it's beyond the call
5 of duty. They're working after normal business hours,
6 they're even doing things on weekends, they're just doing
7 a great job. And there's a few little changes we have to
8 make personnel wise, and we're working on those, but
9 again, that's a slow process, that's a goal of the next
10 year or two, to either encourage people to become better
11 employees or perhaps seek other alternatives, shall we
12 say.
13 So these are all the projects we're
14 working on. I mean I could give you a laundry list, but
15 I'd probably leave some out and I'd probably talk about
16 some things that maybe we've discarded, so it's tough
17 because it's a day-to-day thing.
18 This is the toughest job I've ever had.
19 I've had some, a lot of jobs; I've been a teacher, I've
20 been an adjunct professor at universities, I've been a
21 prosecutor, I've been a judge. This is by far the
22 toughest job I've ever taken on.
23 DR. MOGK: I have two more questions.
24 One is to get your take on the phrase client choice or
25 consumer choice, and the reason that I'm asking this is
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
81
1 that from reviewing some of the files, what seems to come
2 out is that there is a carte blanche consumer choice with
3 not much discussion of what's feasible and realistic and
4 appropriate. It's sort of like, you know, saying to your
5 kid, just go to college and study anything you want to
6 and just as long as you want and, you know, with no
7 discussion of what, you know, of what the job outcome
8 might be, what the outlook is. So in that, every -- most
9 of the times that we've talked to staff, if we say
10 anything about guidance with regard to professions or
11 employment or careers, they immediately say, well, it's
12 the client's choice, it's the client's choice. So I, my
13 understanding of client's choice is sort of like a
14 discussion of what's, what your interests are and what
15 you would like to do in the framework of what's feasible
16 and reasonable and might have a positive outcome at the
17 end of it.
18 MR. RODGERS: This is where, when we get
19 around to having lunch today, Lisa is going to chew me
20 out because she tells me I'm really good at global issues
21 but I shouldn't get down into the weeds on particular
22 issues, and it's one of my favorite expressions, that I'm
23 getting down into the weeds on the minutia of day-to-day
24 stuff.
25 DR. MOGK: Actually, I think this is a
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
82
1 big conceptual issue.
2 MR. RODGERS: Oh, I do, too. I do, too.
3 But she may tell me --
4 MS. KISIEL: It's not a weed issue.
5 MR. RODGERS: She may tell me that I get
6 down into the weeds now in what I'm about to say, but
7 that's okay, because I need staff to give me feedback
8 when I've screwed something up, and they do. I have
9 three or four really good members of the team that do
10 that, and they always are a little hesitant because
11 they're wondering if I'm going to get mad, but I'm not.
12 I never really get mad at them in those terms.
13 The phrase is informed choice, not just
14 client choice.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Phrase should be, you mean?
16 MR. RODGERS: That's right.
17 MS. PARKER: Because it is the client's
18 choice.
19 MR. RODGERS: That's right. And I agree
20 with you, and that's been my observation, too, Lylas, is
21 that up to now whatever the client wanted to do is okay
22 with them. That's one of the cultures we're working on
23 changing, and that's one of the hot issues that we're
24 going to be discussing in our retreat this summer,
25 because I think we need to make sure that we are all on
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
83
1 the same page. If you look at the regs and you look at
2 the statutes which govern what we do, there's no place in
3 there that guarantees that a client can do anything that
4 they want. From the day they walk in the door as a
5 client to the day they leave us, they're involved in the
6 discussions. I think they have the right to make
7 informed choices, providing they are realistic. I think
8 the choices are a partnership choice, because we're the
9 ones that are giving them the services and the money, and
10 everything in life has strings attached to it.
11 If we have a client that's totally blind
12 that walks in the door and says to us, I want to go to
13 the, I can't remember the name of any airline company out
14 because they've changed into my lifetime, Delta -- I want
15 to go to the Delta Pilot School, I want to be a pilot,
16 I'm going to probably blow my stack if a counselor were
17 to approve that. And that's why we have put in place
18 some of the approval paths, from the counselor to the
19 supervisor to the division director to Ed's desk, I'm not
20 going to approve that, because it's not realistic, at
21 least at this stage in technical development. Now, I
22 know Joe is real good in and Gary and some of you folks
23 on the technical stuff that I'm not, I'm not a techy; I
24 don't think right now there's any technical equipment out
25 there that will allow a blind person to fly a plane.
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
84
1 There may be that I'm not aware of, but that's a plan
2 that we certainly should not be approving.
3 MS. DUNN: An assessment would fit in
4 where there, Ed, how do we do assessment --
5 MR. RODGERS: Well, an assessment should
6 start when they walk in the door, Marianne. And
7 actually, assessment shouldn't be a one-time thing,
8 assessment should be a tool that grows and is reviewed.
9 If a kid comes to us with good high school grades, says I
10 want to go to college, I'm not quite sure yet what I want
11 to do, as a person who had, I don't know, five majors at
12 one time or another in college myself, I understand that
13 youth change their minds.
14 (Brief interruption.)
15 MR. RODGERS: In any event, I guess what
16 I'm saying is it's a case-by-case look, and the
17 counselors need to be willing to be realistic with the
18 request of the clients in terms of whether or not --
19 that's why we've got Rob looking at these business plans.
20 I didn't want to just throw $35,000 at an auto mechanic
21 and say go to it, I wanted to make sure that it was
22 something that was sound and feasible; is there a client
23 base that this person can actually make some money at.
24 The same thing with the BEP Program.
25 We have contracted some of the BEP
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
85
1 facilities because they simply could not make enough
2 money for the individual to be "gainfully employed". It
3 simply is not there. We're going to continue to look at
4 all of our BEP facilities in that light also to make sure
5 that they are facilities that will in effect create a
6 livelihood for somebody.
7 Lisa, do you want to jump in on informed
8 choice, too?
9 DR. MOGK: Actually, could I say
10 something here. I think since they've turned off the
11 audio --
12 MS. KISIEL: Yeah, I went to get her.
13 They're coming.
14 MS. LUZENSKI: I just e-mailed her.
15 DR. MOGK: I thought maybe we needed to
16 take the break. I don't know if that's why they did it,
17 because we scheduled in a break.
18 MS. LUZENSKI: I don't think so, but I'm
19 not positive.
20 DR. MOGK: If they're going to turn it
21 back on, then go ahead, Lisa.
22 MS. KISIEL: I think I hear what Ed's
23 saying, and I think that I agree with that. You know,
24 it's sad to me that that's the impression that you're
25 getting, because that's not what I -- you know, everyone
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
86
1 has a right to make their own choices, however, to be
2 perfectly honest, as a voc rehab agency, we may or may
3 not choose to participate in those choices. And that's
4 what I think, you know, we have to be cognizant of is
5 that -- and I think Ed's example is pretty, that's a
6 fairly obvious one, there are many that are not so
7 obvious where the assessment piece does some in. But I
8 think that -- a carte blanche answer of that's why we do
9 it is because it's their choice, you know, that's -- that
10 wouldn't be what I would think of when I think about
11 informed choice. When I think of informed choice, I
12 think about giving people all of the options that are
13 available and then figuring out which options are the
14 best.
15 MR. GAYNOR: It's not our impression,
16 Lisa, it's what --
17 MS. KISIEL: I hear what you're saying.
18 MR. GAYNOR: No. I don't like -- no,
19 it's what we were told specifically. Not, you know, we
20 haven't seen something and thought, oh, this is what's
21 happening, but then that's been backed up in the record
22 of the reports that we were given.
23 MS. KISIEL: Right.
24 MR. RODGERS: My last comment on informed
25 choice would be that there's actually some case law. The
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
87
1 lawyer in me comes out now, right. There's actually a
2 federal court decision that I'm aware of because I used
3 to do special ed hearings where it addresses the issue of
4 special education services and what's required and not
5 required in school districts, and I think the theory or
6 the theme within that case applies to voc rehab, too; and
7 that is while the client may be entitled to an
8 automobile, they're not entitled to a Cadillac per se if
9 a Chevy will do the job, and that's actually language in
10 a federal court decision, that you may be entitled to the
11 Chevy, but you're not entitled to the Cadillac.
12 (Brief interruption.)
13 MR. RODGERS: I had a special education
14 case where a parent wanted to send the Autistic child to
15 a residential school in Florida that cost something like
16 $190,000 a year, the school district wanted to have a cab
17 pick the child up at the home, deliver that child to the
18 next school district that bordered the school district
19 the child lived in, because they had a nationally
20 recognized program for teaching and training Autistic
21 children, and then have the cab pick the child up at the
22 end of the school day and take them back home. The
23 mother didn't want that, she wanted the kid to go to the
24 residential school in Florida for whatever reason. I
25 ruled in favor the school district, that their plan was
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
88
1 reasonable it was fair and it only cost something like
2 $30,000 a year. So we do have to look at those things.
3 MS. DUNN: So I guess we're hopeful that
4 those aren't representative, but you have had significant
5 information that suggests that it occurs very frequently.
6 DR. MOGK: Yes, and some of it is what
7 we've been told verbally, but some of it is the cases
8 that we've been provided that we read that were selected
9 by the BSBP.
10 MR. RODGERS: And that's why one of the
11 first things we did was set up the review process
12 internally, and we did it -- and Gary would understand
13 this with his accounting background -- we did it based
14 on, to start with, finance, that if you reach a certain
15 threshold, it has to go up the line for approval, because
16 that's one thing that we can identify in every file, what
17 does it cost. We can't necessarily identify and break
18 down and have a chart of all the services; you know, so
19 and so gets transportation, the other person doesn't. So
20 we did it the easiest way we could do it in terms of
21 being effective and efficient, and that was based on
22 cost.
23 DR. MOGK: And my other question is,
24 based on the fact that when we started a year ago, we
25 were not necessarily familiar with the workings of the
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
89
1 BSBP, but now we feel like we are, so at this juncture
2 would it not be appropriate for members of the
3 subcommittees to sit in on some of these meetings that,
4 committees that you've put together that are making some
5 decisions, for example, the technology for the BEP or
6 something like that, would it not be appropriate for
7 LeeAnn to be part of that conversation, or at least be
8 present if we're to advise and there are big decisions
9 being made? Would that not be appropriate?
10 MR. RODGERS: I would be willing to
11 discuss that proposal further for you. I'm not prepared
12 today to commit either way.
13 DR. MOGK: Okay.
14 MS. PARKER: Another possibility, and I
15 just thought of this today when you were talking about
16 the school for the blind, Ed, another possibility when
17 you have a committee that includes staff and people from
18 the outside is that perhaps a couple people from this
19 Commission are a part of that.
20 MR. RODGERS: I for sure would like at
21 least one -- the committee I'm envisioning that when we
22 look at the MSB question after we finish the stage one,
23 it's like a five-stage process as I look at it, fifth
24 stage being maybe create or don't create the blind
25 school; in stage two, where hopefully we can get some
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
90
1 people to volunteer to serve on the committee, I would
2 certainly want at least one person from this Commission,
3 as an advisory commission, to be part of that. I would
4 also, I also want somebody from the Department of
5 Education and our other partner groups out there,
6 somebody from the intermediate school districts, somebody
7 who is versed in the issues of eye disease, of loss of
8 sight, et cetera, in other words, a doctor of some sort,
9 and maybe a parent group. I would look at a -- I'm
10 thinking of a committee that maybe has seven to nine
11 people representing all those different areas, and let
12 them -- I want them to look at what information you've
13 gathered and let them take us down whatever trail they
14 think we need to go on. Maybe shut off at stage two, who
15 knows, because I have not reached a conclusion either
16 way, and don't want to until we've gone through each of
17 the stages that we should probably go through.
18 DR. MOGK: Okay. Well, let's at this
19 juncture take a break, and we'll -- we are 15 minutes
20 behind. One of these meetings, I'll get the timing
21 right. So we'll do a 15-minute break and then come back
22 at 11:45.
23 (At 11:31 a.m., there was an 18-minute recess.
24 DR. MOGK: Okay. We call the meeting to
25 order again. And now we have four brief subcommittee
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
91
1 reports, and the first one is the BEP, and LeeAnn
2 Buckingham will do that one.
3 MS. BUCKINGHAM: Okay.
4 MR. SIBLEY: Did you want me to say --
5 MS. BUCKINGHAM: Yes.
6 DR. MOGK: Sorry, Joe will.
7 MR. SIBLEY: We don't have a lot of new
8 information to report. And one of the issues I think a
9 lot of the committees are facing is that so many things
10 are in flux right now, the rules are changing for this
11 and that, adjustments are being made, so it's kind of
12 hard to nail down, okay, this is how it should be when
13 things are actually changing. LeeAnn and I did attempt
14 to go the EOC meeting in December, which was canceled
15 because, surprise, surprise, the weather was horrible, so
16 we will to work with the EOC and work with various
17 operators, and as well as staff members. We've still got
18 questions, and hopefully they have answers, like Radio
19 Shack says, and then I'm hoping we can actually make some
20 good suggestions. And we'll be at Sagebrush next week,
21 which is a national Randolph-Sheppard Vendors of America,
22 and just if anybody wants to listen in on that, it's
23 going to be audio streamed on ACB radio (inaudible) --
24 THE REPORTER: Excuse me. Which
25 radio?
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
92
1 MR. SIBLEY: Sure. Which you can find at
2 ACBradio.org, so if you want to actually listen in on
3 this national conference for vendors, that will be
4 available next week. And if anybody wants a schedule, I
5 can e-mail, forward the e-mail I got.
6 MR. RODGERS: I would also mention as a
7 followup to Joe's comment on the conference next week on
8 the BEP, one of the people attending it is James Chaney,
9 who is the chair of the Elected Operators Committee, so
10 he's going to be representing a committee.
11 And I guess that's another goal, Lylas,
12 is we have tried to encompass and enhance the philosophy
13 that we're supposed to work with the Elected Operators
14 Committee in improving the program, and I think we've
15 made a step in the right direction with that. I think
16 our relationship with the EEOC is better than it's been
17 in the past.
18 DR. MOGK: Excellent.
19 MR. SIBLEY: From my observation, past
20 and present, that is correct. I'm hearing from EOC
21 leadership that things are going a lot -- I mean not too
22 many years ago there was a real us versus them mentality
23 between the agency and the EOC, and I think things are
24 much better now.
25 MR. RODGERS: And the rules, Joe had
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
93
1 mentioned the rules, we're in the process of finalizing a
2 draft of revising the BEP rules, and it's a long, lengthy
3 process, because once we finish our work, which will be
4 towards March, we'll then turn it over to the EEOC for
5 their comments; once they've made their comments, we'll
6 do a final draft, and then we'll hold public hearings,
7 and then they'll do the rule process promulgation. But
8 then it also has to go to RSA for their approval. So our
9 goal for this year is to have the rules done by the end
10 of the fiscal year, so hopefully we can accomplish that.
11 DR. MOGK: Anything else?
12 MS. BUCKINGHAM: Well, I just wanted to
13 mention that I've done some research on the audit, and we
14 talked about that at the last meeting that we were at,
15 was it a week ago?
16 MS. PARKER: The finance meeting.
17 MS. BUCKINGHAM: The finance meeting, and
18 basically I think that the BSBP, they're changing
19 everything, so with the Business Enterprise Program
20 I've -- my plans are to talk with Mike Pemble and
21 Constance to see if I can get some more information; but
22 I also can see that everything's changing, so the
23 information I'm -- the information I'll be getting is all
24 changing in how you'll be receiving information with your
25 software, from what I understand. And I also have a
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
94
1 meeting with Lisa at the Training Center on the 19th, and
2 I need to get that approved and see if I can get a ride
3 there.
4 But I feel that, personally, everything
5 with the BEP Program, and not just the BEP Program, with
6 BSBP is going in the right direction. I feel that it
7 can -- that the employees' morale must be so much better
8 knowing what they're doing, where they're going, and
9 having a new set of rules and direction and positive
10 direction, and that's what we all hope for, so they can
11 serve their clients in a more positive way. So that's
12 where I'm at right now.
13 DR. MOGK: Okay. Thank you. Consumer
14 Services subcommittee, Gary.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Excuse me, I thought I was
16 last. Okay. Since the last meeting, and since our last
17 general on December 5, we met with the Western Wayne
18 County Intermediate School District VI Program, and we
19 set that up to see how the transition program, tried to
20 get their side of how the transition program was going,
21 and so we met with the supervisor or director, I think
22 it's supervisor, and three of the TCBIs. It was
23 interesting, and they -- what they were suggesting was
24 that maybe more of a relationship needs to be developed
25 between the counselors, between the Voc Rehab counselor
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
95
1 and the students as compared to just coming once a year
2 to do the IEP, and then -- but they did say that the,
3 within the last year, that the Voc Rehab people had been
4 out more, were more attentive to coming out to their
5 meetings. And so but that meeting led to different
6 questions that maybe we should meet with other ISDs,
7 maybe not just in the western Wayne County area, like
8 Macomb or even outstate somewhere to get an idea of how
9 the transition program is working in their school
10 districts. And with there being 57 ISDs, it's hard to
11 meet with all of them, but it would be good to look at
12 some other ones.
13 And we met with the Visually Handicapped
14 Services down at Detroit Receiving Hospital, which is
15 kind of a mini training center. Would that be a good
16 description?
17 MR. RODGERS: I think so. Its main
18 function is to provide similar services to what Lisa does
19 at the Training Center, but to accommodate also our
20 clients who are in the metro Detroit area, because a lot
21 of them don't have the wherewithal or, quite frankly,
22 don't want to go to Kalamazoo for an extended period for
23 whatever reason, so we offer this as an alternative. We
24 are actually reviewing those services now and looking at
25 that contract, because that contract is going to be up
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
96
1 for renewal. I think we've used up our last extension,
2 we were just granted an extension, because there was
3 built in the contract so many years we could extend it,
4 so there may be a -- it may require us to do a new RFP.
5 I'm not saying Detroit Receiving won't be getting the
6 contract or doing those services, but I'm saying that we
7 may have to go through that process again, I'm not sure.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Right. Because they hit
9 that process right about the transition time, right?
10 MR. RODGERS: Yes, that's right.
11 MR. GAYNOR: So it's just easier to roll
12 it over.
13 MR. RODGERS: Yes, that's right.
14 MR. GAYNOR: And that's where I went in
15 1991, just as part of the mini report.
16 MR. RODGERS: Oh, okay.
17 MR. GAYNOR: And they offer Braille and,
18 you know, O.T. and mobility and just general counseling,
19 but not so much -- there also is not a job placement type
20 thing, it's a blind skills type thing. Would that be
21 safe to say?
22 MR. RODGERS: I would say, wouldn't you
23 say, Lisa?
24 MS. KISIEL: Yes, I would, absolutely.
25 MR. RODGERS: And also because it's not
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
97
1 residential, because it's a day school, you lose some
2 of -- there are some great things that happen after hours
3 at the Training Center because the staff is so good and
4 so dedicated, those don't happen in Detroit Receiving
5 per se just because it's a day school.
6 MR. GAYNOR: And I just lost the other
7 thought. But they do have a long waiting list.
8 They're -- they serve 32 people a year, eight people a
9 session, four different sessions, so the plan is to serve
10 32 people in the year, and the waiting list was
11 approximately 60, so they -- because they have people
12 just like what we've heard in the past, other places that
13 someone might only be able to come two days a week
14 because it's a non-residential type facility, they might
15 be working, they might have kids, or any number of
16 reasons, but they don't necessarily come five days a week
17 for the 12-week period.
18 MR. RODGERS: And that's one of the
19 things we're going to review if we have to go down the
20 new RFP is in terms of how it should be structured,
21 because staff may have some ideas and we're going to ask
22 for their input obviously, as to are there some things
23 that we need to change. For instance, if a person can
24 only come one day a week, are they really a good
25 candidate for those services, and we're going to look at
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
98
1 all that.
2 DR. MOGK: Or alternatively, match them
3 with the sharing.
4 MR. RODGERS: There you go, there you go.
5 DR. MOGK: One person come two days a
6 week, another person comes three, so you've got a
7 full-time person.
8 MR. RODGERS: Right.
9 MS. PARKER: I would just add, it was
10 impressive. The challenges there were huge.
11 Transportation in Detroit is out of anyone's control, the
12 buses, or the non-buses, and it was hearing that brought
13 that so real to, brought that so forward, and that was --
14 and there are places cab drivers won't go, and some of
15 these people live in those places.
16 MR. RODGERS: That's right.
17 MS. PARKER: So it's not even call a cab.
18 And so I just want to say out loud how impressive that
19 staff is in terms of how far they seem to go as a team to
20 get the people who have been admitted to that program
21 there and home safely, without saying more. I was -- it
22 was impressive.
23 MR. RODGERS: And also, our BSBP staff
24 has the same issues, there's certain areas that they
25 don't want to go to, but they have worked their way
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
99
1 through that.
2 MS. PARKER: It was impressive.
3 DR. MOGK: Okay. Any other comments
4 there?
5 MR. GAYNOR: No, thanks.
6 DR. MOGK: How about Marianne, the
7 Training Center?
8 MS. DUNN: Yes. I've been in touch with
9 Lisa, we have a conference call set up for later in this
10 month, the 21st. I had sent along a list of questions
11 that I hope would guide our discussion, and she's
12 requested that we delay the conference until they have a
13 chance to respond in writing, and we had targeted the end
14 of last month. Do you have a sense of when you might
15 have those?
16 MS. KISIEL: I'm hoping by next week.
17 MS. DUNN: Okay. Great. So I look
18 forward to being able to report a little more next time
19 after we have our conference call. A lot of the issues
20 were addressed today, of course. Thanks for your input.
21 MS. KISIEL: That's what I was hoping.
22 DR. MOGK: Excellent. Okay. Josie, how
23 about the finance?
24 MS. PARKER: Thank you. A week ago today
25 LeeAnn Buckingham, Mike Hudson and I met with Mike Pemble
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
100
1 and Director Rodgers and two persons from LARA from the
2 finance division, Dawn Lake and Kevin Caslavka -- and I
3 do not know how to spell Caslavka.
4 MS. LUZENSKI: It's Caslavka,
5 C-a-s-l-a-v-k-a.
6 MS. PARKER: Caslavka. So you got it.
7 Okay. Thank you. I'd know him if he walked in the door,
8 but only as Kevin. It was a really interesting and
9 enlightening meeting. Many of the things that have come
10 forward to my subcommittee as questions about financial,
11 how the budgets are done, who's responsible for what, we
12 all, I think, brought those questions from our different
13 subcommittees to that Finance Committee meeting. Having
14 the staff persons from the finance division of LARA come
15 and talk about what the federal money available is for,
16 what the regulations are around it, what the state money,
17 what we call our general fund and what we call our match,
18 and what they're, what eligible dollars there are for
19 match, when federal money can be used, and it can't be
20 used for match, which is a big thing, because there's a
21 lot of money that can't be used for match, and the issues
22 around applying for the Social Security reimbursements
23 and how to do that and what that money can be used for,
24 because that's a big piece of what Mike's doing right now
25 to help with the budget. Frankly, for me, I was
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
101
1 impressed to know that the issues that we're seeing rise
2 to the top in our conversations are known and understood
3 by the management of the Bureau, that they have
4 prioritized them, they are going after the pieces that
5 can be dealt with readily and soon, and then making the
6 bigger, larger plans for those things which are going to
7 take longer and cost more money. All of the ideas we
8 brought forward were recognized as possible, some of them
9 more than others.
10 For instance, there was discussion about
11 in the regional areas, how training on technology is
12 lacking, there's not a lot of opportunity for people to
13 get training on assistive technology or understanding how
14 to use tablets or handhelds to augment their personal
15 lives, and in the subregional libraries, there are
16 assistive technology labs, some of them better equipped
17 than others, and the public libraries are open with many
18 more than any other regional office, they're almost all
19 located in relatively easy to get to places with bus
20 transportation, and the staff there are trained on using
21 all that equipment. My suggestion was can we consider
22 how to supplement and augment what's existing rather than
23 create and be redundant, and that was a good discussion.
24 And that was, that's an example I'll give you of how what
25 we're thinking dovetailed into what the Bureau was
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
102
1 already thinking. So we'll go down that line.
2 I feel personally much more aware and of
3 what happens with the budget. I didn't like hearing from
4 people I was talking to we run out of money and that's it
5 when I just, it made, it personally made no sense, but I
6 couldn't get -- we couldn't get past it because that was
7 what people believed. And so we were able to ask that
8 question, and we were able to understand why people
9 believe that. They aren't making it up, they actually
10 believe it, and what happens around that.
11 I think that this advisory board's
12 efforts to understand the Commission has personally been
13 extremely helpful to the -- I mean to understand the
14 Bureau has been helpful to the Bureau, because it's an
15 affirmation and a recognition that these issues are there
16 and that they need to be addressed, and that it's also a,
17 sort of a doublecheck, we're not missing something and
18 they're not missing something, so we can put it together
19 and make sure that we're all getting what we need to
20 know. I was impressed, and it made me more determined to
21 do this work, and it made me, it affirmed why I'm doing
22 it and how I'm glad to be a part of it, and hopefully
23 down the line we can all look back and know we were here
24 at this point in time and that good things are happening
25 consequent to the work that all of us do. So that's my
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
103
1 piece.
2 I like money, I like studying money, I
3 like talking about money, I like figuring it out, and I'm
4 not a CPA or any of those, that's not it; I like making
5 it work, I like making it work for the good of the most
6 people possible, and if that's happening, I'm satisfied;
7 when it's not happening, I'm not a happy camper. And I
8 see places where it's not happening, but so do the people
9 who are administrating this Bureau, and that's comforting
10 to me, and I'm accepting of that. So my piece.
11 DR. MOGK: Okay. Any other comments,
12 questions? Ed?
13 Okay. Then we are available for public
14 comment. Anybody on the phone or in the room would like
15 to make a comment, we'd be happy to hear from you?
16 MS. LUZENSKI: Jane just, the person who
17 does the audio streaming, she just sent me an e-mail that
18 there is nobody on the phone.
19 DR. MOGK: Okay.
20 MR. RODGERS: I guess the record should
21 indicate, Madam Chair, that we did have a conflict today
22 with this meeting and the MCRS, the Michigan Council of
23 Rehabilitation Services; in fact, it split my staff, I
24 sent Mike Pemble and somebody else to that meeting
25 instead of being here. So it could be that folks are
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
104
1 focusing on that meeting instead.
2 DR. MOGK: Right.
3 MS. LUZENSKI: And we will try to avoid
4 that conflict in the future. And there's no new e-mail,
5 I just checked.
6 DR. MOGK: Okay. Anybody in the room
7 want to make a comment? Nope. All right.
8 Okay. Our next meeting is scheduled for
9 Thursday, May 1, I think I'm right about that date, and
10 that's in part to avoid the conflict, because their
11 meetings are on Fridays and this was an unusual one for
12 us. But so that will be the next meeting, and we will
13 look forward to seeing you all there. And the meeting is
14 adjourned.
15 (At 12:10 p.m., the meeting adjourned.)
16 - - -
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
105
1 STATE OF MICHIGAN )
)
2 COUNTY OF MACOMB )
3 I, Lori Anne Penn, certify that this
4 transcript consisting of 105 pages is a complete, true,
5 and correct record of the proceedings held on Friday,
6 February 7, 2014.
7 I further certify that I am not
8 responsible for any copies of this transcript not made
9 under my direction or control and bearing my original
10 signature.
11 I also certify that I am not a relative
12 or employee of or an attorney for a party; or a relative
13 or employee of an attorney for a party; or financially
14 interested in the action.
15
16
17 _________________ ______________________________________
Date Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315
18 Notary Public, Macomb County, Michigan
My Commission Expires June 15, 2019
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.426.9530
More information about the NFBMI-Talk
mailing list