[Nfbmo] subject change to church...
fred olver
goodfolks at charter.net
Thu Oct 27 17:00:50 UTC 2011
I didn't go to church for a long time, either, until I figured out that I
was the one who had to offer to put the bulletin in to an accessible format,
until I volunteered to "participate" in anything I could to show that I was
interested.
Fred Olver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
> there you go again
> I'm not blaming anyone, I'll have you know that people here in Kansas City
> have made remarks about the Springfield chapter president, and as far as
> me talking about churches.
> I was saying that a blind pastor said that 95% us don't go to church, I
> said my self that I don't know if the numbers are really that high, and I
> also said that that was my experience, and that I was not trying to tell
> people not to go to church, and then you guys jump all over me
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Wunder" <GWunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'" <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 7:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>
>
>> Dewey, when you were in Springfield I tried to get you to join. I told
>> you
>> how much we need people and you had an excuse about people not treating
>> you
>> right. You indicted 95% of all churches as anti-blind and now you say
>> Debbie
>> is causing you to leave. You have never been. You want to snipe from the
>> sidelines and never, so far as I have observed, did anything except to
>> lift
>> a finger to your keyboard to start an argument. I do not know the city
>> you
>> live in now, but we could have used you desperately in Springfield and
>> there
>> was always a reason you would not commit. I guess now you have one and
>> someone to blame it on. I'm sorry about that. We need you and you need
>> us,
>> but you can't expect people to sit passively by as you talk about their
>> churches in such a demeaning way. I hope you do something constructive
>> for
>> the blind in your new city. We want to be your friend, and from your
>> appearance on the list I believe you want to be ours. Just don't throw a
>> stone and be surprised if some object and say it is juvenile to throw
>> them.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Dewey Bradley
>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 1:06 AM
>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>
>> I was talking about the blind people on this list as well, they jump all
>> over me, that is why I am going to leave all the blind groups, some
>> things
>> have been said in the past, and so people remember my name, and are going
>> to
>>
>> do that, so I get the pointe.
>> I just moved to a new city and whent to a chapter meeting a week ago, but
>> something Debby said has turned me off for good.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
>> To: <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>
>>
>>>I agree - I have enough things to deal with without having to address
>>>the
>>> neuroses of random people at bus stops or waiting in line.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 10/27/2011 12:32:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>> dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com writes:
>>>
>>> Well he didn't think I heard him, he was an older guy, so something has
>>> up
>>> set him I guess, who knows, but if you read the other posts from this
>>> list,
>>> I'm the only one who has ever gotten that, I'm angry
>>> But I don't bother with people like that, its a waste of my time
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
>>> To: <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:13 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dewey,
>>>> Sounds like that guy at the bus stop felt inferior in the presence of
>>>> someone he felt had a lot more courage than he does.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 10/26/2011 11:37:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>>> dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> I had a guy at the bus stop the other day telling someone that if he
>>> were
>>>> blind he would kill him self, but that is just me being angry I
>>>> guess.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <DanFlasar at aol.com>
>>>> To: <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:27 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There are always a few fringey people in every group. Generally,
>>>>> it's
>>>>> not
>>>>> good to elect, appoint or anoint them, much less generalize from
>>>>> their
>>>>> poor behavior to the rest of the group.
>>>>> And anyone who would pray for you to get your sight back and call
>>> you
>>>>> evil if you don't needs to pray to lift the arrogance from their
>>>>> soul.
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 10/26/2011 5:51:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>>>> mdsmith25 at ktis.net writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've run across a few people who believe that if I just pray enough
>>>>> my
>>>>> blindness will be cured, but none that thought my blindness was
>>> caused
>>>>> because I was evil.
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa Smith
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/26/2011 5:02 PM, Gail Bryant wrote:
>>>>>> Personally, I go to a wonderful church which has supported me in
>>> every
>>>>> way
>>>>>> possible. When I've had surgery, the helped me with meals and
>>> whatever
>>>> I
>>>>>> needed. When Ed died, they prayed with me, cried with me, laughed
>>>>>> with
>>>>> me
>>>>>> and more. Never have they called me evil. I don't know where Mr.
>>>>> Bradley
>>>>>> gets his figures, but perhaps the reason he chooses not to go to
>>>> church
>>>>> is
>>>>>> out of anger and bitterness
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gail Bryant
>>>>>> Columbia Braille Teaching Services L.L.C.
>>>>>> 1212 London Drive
>>>>>> Columbia, MO 65203-2012
>>>>>> Phone: (573)817-5993
>>>>>> Cell: (573)268-4962
>>>>>> gbryant at socket.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Debbie Wunder
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:05 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are being ridiculous! Where do you get your facts?
>>>>>> This trivia night issue has nothing to do with god, or opinions of
>>> the
>>>>>> blind.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley"<dewey.bradley at kc.rr.com>
>>>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List"<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wasn't going to reply to this, but I have to say this
>>>>>>> its been my experience that churches and church groups do this,
>>> they
>>>> do
>>>>>>> not want anyone with a disability around, they just want to tell
>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> if we pray harder we will have are sight back, and that we are
>>>>>>> evil,
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> is why we are blind.
>>>>>>> They say that 95% of us don't go to church, I don't know if the
>>>>>>> numbers
>>>>>>> are that high, but this is why.
>>>>>>> Most people that go to church and call them selves Christians are
>>>>>>> judgmental like that.
>>>>>>> I'm not saying don't go to church, nor am I trying to get a
>>>>>>> lintch
>>>>>>> mob
>>>>>>> after me, I'm just saying that is what I've noticed, that is why
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> go, every church I have seen do not want blind people around.
>>>>>>> I'm not saying that is the case here, but it could be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "MATTHEW SIEVERT"<msievert at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB of Missouri Mailing List"<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:33 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Group,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope you are all well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I have observed is that many times people will want to
>>>>>>> "rebel"
>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>> remedy a situation through other means.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Equality for all will not take place over a period of one year or
>>>> even
>>>>> ten
>>>>>>> years, but you can lay the foundation that other's can build
>>>>>>> upon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Representing a group in a negative light will not win over
>>>> supporters.
>>>>> It
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> bring attention to the issue, but you want people understand, not
>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>> notice
>>>>>>> through a negative act.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some day we will have a blind/visually impaired astronaut. Until
>>> that
>>>>> time
>>>>>>> we as
>>>>>>> the NFB should do what we can to build upon our organization's
>>>>>>> achievements and
>>>>>>> represent our disabled community in a positive light.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Equality at trivia night's should be obtained, but like all
>>>> challenges,
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> take time and a calm intellect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sievert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: fred olver<goodfolks at charter.net>
>>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, October 26, 2011 7:41:12 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have read your comments several times and perhapse even lost
>>>>>>> some
>>>>> sleep
>>>>>>> over what I consider to be an afrontery to me and others who
>>>>>>> might
>>>> wish
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> participate in an activity alongside individuals who are not
>>>>>>> limited
>>>> in
>>>>>>> their vision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me say first of all that a year ago I confronted this
>>>>>>> situation
>>>> and
>>>>>>> explained to the individuals in charge that I felt wronged
>>>>>>> because
>>>> half
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the questions were undeciferable by myself. Okay, they didn't
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> going to be there. This year, however nearly a third of the
>>> questions
>>>>> were
>>>>>>> again undeciferable by a blind person. It is my feeling that if
>>>>>>> the
>>>>> folks
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> charge know that individuals will be participating who are unable
>>> to
>>>>>>> participate in a significant number of questions related to the
>>>>>>> activity
>>>>>>> that they not allow those questions. To me, the reasons ought to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> obvious. If you alienate a significant number of individuals you
>>>>>>> won't
>>>>> get
>>>>>>> them to come back next year. If you knowingly allow questions to
>>>>>>> be
>>> a
>>>>> part
>>>>>>> of an activity which you know will exclude individuals from
>>>>> participating
>>>>>>> then you are wrong to include them. If for example I only provide
>>>>> agenda's
>>>>>>> in Braille to individuals who don't read Braille then I am wrong
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>> so,
>>>>>>> because I have ignored their needs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bottom line, I'm feeling ignored. Next year, I think I'll find
>>> seven
>>>>> other
>>>>>>> individuals who can not make use of visual questions and attend
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> fundraiser and practice a bit of civil disobedience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Gary Wunder"<GWunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB of Missouri Mailing List'"<nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 5:53 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Fred and the folks who have commented here. Please allow me
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> interject
>>>>>>>> another perspective. I find this troublesome philosophically.
>>>>>>>> When
>>> I
>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> have access and am denied it because someone doesn't want to go
>>>>>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> trouble of making their software accessible, I'm up in arms.
>>>>>>>> When
>>>> they
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> artificial barriers such as possessing a driver's license when
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> mean is that an employee has to get around, I'm bothered. When
>>> they
>>>>> say I
>>>>>>>> have to be able to visually read print to take a job and I have
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do it, I'm outraged.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How is the issue changed when we know of no way to make a
>>>>>>>> process
>>>> 100
>>>>>>>> percent accessible? I don't want to deprive anyone of the beauty
>>>> found
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> paintings or photography simply because I can't observe them. I
>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>> there are some cartoons that are so torturous to explain that by
>>> the
>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> one finishes putting them into words, they are no longer
>>>>>>>> funny.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mental challenges may be audible, visual, or they might even
>>> involve
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> senses such as taste or smell. If we look hard enough, we'll
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> have problems with one or more of these. So, in the areas where
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> have true alternatives, should our request be that the thing we
>>>> cannot
>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> stricken from the activity? Would we have been wrong to run a
>>>>>>>> clip
>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>>>> Kissinger saying "Piece is at hand," and asking the group to
>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> man or what he was talking about or the year when he made the
>>>>> utterance?
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> blind are at something of a disadvantage because we cannot see
>>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> deaf
>>>>>>>> are at a disadvantage because they cannot hear him. The young
>>>>>>>> may
>>>> well
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> a disadvantage because they weren't around when he made
>>>>>>>> headlines
>>>> with
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> statement, much to the displeasure of his boss, the president of
>>> the
>>>>>>>> United
>>>>>>>> States. Take the same question, put it in print, and then decide
>>>>>>>> if
>>>> it
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> fair to the dyslexic who might have an easy time with the audio
>>>>>>>> or
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> video
>>>>>>>> clip.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I Don't like being excluded, and if I am excluded enough, I'll
>>> find
>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>> activity. It hurts and seems unfair, but to me it doesn't rise
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>> of discrimination which, if I understand it, means something
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>> unreasonable and detrimental. I don't think we can be critical
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> using sight and acknowledging that it plays a major role in the
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> find and even remember things. What we can and should make an
>>>>> unequivocal
>>>>>>>> stand for are things which have nonvisual alternatives but which
>>> are
>>>>>>>> ignored
>>>>>>>> to the detriment of our education and employment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not mean this as a real answer to the question of what
>>>>>>>> should
>>> I
>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> as a thought process we go through when trying to decide when to
>>>> fight
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> what we can reasonably fight for as blind people. I am not
>>> targeting
>>>>> Fred
>>>>>>>> here but trying to engage in some discussion of a philosophical
>>>>> principle
>>>>>>>> that I wrestle with at least two or three times per month. I
>>>>> appreciate
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> question, even if I don't have anything like a good answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of fred olver
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:45 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbmo] What would you do?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A year ago, I attended a Trivia Night put on by a food pantry in
>>> the
>>>>> St.
>>>>>>>> Louis area. This pantry is supported by my church along with
>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>>>> After the night's program was over, half of the categories
>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> nature so that a blind person could not participate in that
>>>>>>>> portion
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> program I wrote an item for my churches news-letter and sent it
>>>>>>>> on
>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> director of the organization. In this item I pointed out that it
>>> was
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> fair or necessary to include only video-type questions and asked
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> do, in the future consider having categories which were
>>>>>>>> non-video
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> future. I received assurances from the director of the
>>> organization
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> indeed they would do this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last Friday, I attended their Trivia Nighht again. True, only
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>> categories
>>>>>>>> of questions were video in nature, however these two categories
>>>>> included
>>>>>>>> roughly 1/3 of the questions. Yesterday at a meeting of a
>>>>>>>> church
>>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suggested that they with-hold two weeks worth of donations and
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> donations go to another organization as a protest, the rest of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>>> said no to this idea, sighting the possibility that a family
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do without this food, I personally doubt it, and figure they're
>>> just
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> comfortable in their place and don't wish to because it doesn't
>>>> affect
>>>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>>> so what would you do if you were in my place? This really upsets
>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>> especially since I had spoken to this organization a year ago
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> more or less agreed that this was not a good thing to have
>>>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fred Olver
>>>>>>>> http://www.dealingwithvisionloss.com For some of us it's a way
>>>>>>>> of
>>>> life
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> for some of us it just makes life easier. Fred Olver
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Nfbmo mailing list
>>>>>>>> Nfbmo at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmo_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>> info
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Nfbmo:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmo_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmo_nfbnet.org/goodfolks%40charter.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmo_nfbnet.org/msievert%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmo_nfbnet.org/dewey.bradley%40kc.rr.com
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmo_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40centurytel
>>>>>> .net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> for
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 2012.0.1834 / Virus Database: 2092/4575 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 10/26/11
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Nfbmo:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmo_nfbnet.org/mdsmith25%40ktis.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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