[NFBMO] Question about making computer technology 100% accessible

Wed Oct 28 15:24:29 UTC 2020

Hello, Michael. You have asked some difficult questions. If we knew the answers, we might already have solved the accessibility issue.

How do we get to a point where we are demanding accessibility over evangelizing it? 

Part of the question is who are we to demand? We represent a small market share. When money talks, people listen. This is why we have tried to get the government involved in mandating standards. The government has money and power. If we convince them that in accessibility means that we stay home and don't work, maybe they are willing to work harder on standards and to actually enforce them. Keep in mind that our current administration has said that for every new regulation that is implemented, three must be repealed. That is a pretty high bar if you want or need new regulations. The current Congress is also of similar mind, so the feeling that business should decide what is best for business is likely to prevail unless we see some kind of major political change. You can always say that a thing should be done because it is the right thing to do, but often things are done because they are economically good to do. Right may make you feel good, but it doesn't always put money in your pocket. Even as I write to suggest that the ADA should be made stronger and the Internet more accessible, there are ongoing efforts to weaken the ADA. So the only one clear thing I can say to you is that our battle is uphill.

How do we convince big companies that it is the right thing to do, to demand it? 

Again, I think demand is very difficult. If we represented 80% of a buying market, then we could demand. If we represent 2 or 5% of a buying market, our demands won't make much difference. People die because of drugs they cannot afford, so the demand is there, but the money isn't. There's no way to separate policy from money.

Where can I find more tech talks and webinars on this subject? I love formats like zoom.
I don't know the answer to this one. We try to talk about things like this in the Braille Monitor. We try to talk about them in our blog. If you monitor our press releases, you can see the efforts we are making to incorporate accessibility into the law and into the practice that businesses follow. What you can do individually is right to companies that violate accessibility standards. Let them know how what they do affects you. Let them know of the possible publicity you could give them if only they got it right.

I wish I had more certain and surefire suggestions. When you are a low incidence population like blind people are, you can say that something is a right, but making it so is very different. A right becomes a right only when so many people believe it that it becomes unquestioned. There are many things we label as human rights with the hope that invoking those words will settle the issue. My own somewhat pessimistic take is that a right is only a right if most people decide to live by it. When I was growing up, one of the very controversial issues was the fair housing act. It said that if you were going to sell your house and somewhat offered you your price, you had to sell to that someone regardless their color, religion, and other characteristics. To those who thought color should not make a difference as to where one lived, the law was only substantiating a human right. To those who believed that they should be able to do whatever they wanted with their property, the law was abridging a fundamental human right to do as they wished with their property.

I'm sorry to get so heavy into the subject, but solving the accessibility needs of blind people is not simple. The law is only partially on our side. Business is only partially on our side. Most people believe that accessibility is a nice thing to do; far fewer believe that it is absolutely what should be done.

Warmly,

Gary

> On Oct 13, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Gary Wunder via NFBMO <nfbmo at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Do you think developers feel limited if they only use buttons built into the operating system? Is it a reality that this can limit designers? 
> 
> I think that they feel their creativity is impinged upon by being forced to use those buttons, but I don't think it costs them more. At least when I was actively involved in the issue, they liked doing their own art. There may now be a way for them to draw whatever they wish on the screen and still have it identified by the operating system as a button. If that is true, then screen reader should still be able to identify them. The
> 
> Could it be more costly to use the buttons built into the operating system, and then have to style them with CSS, as opposed to drawing buttons in certain situations? I have heard of situations, for example, where a link might visually look like a button, but a screen reader sees it as a link.
> 
> It can be quite confusing when a thing looks like a button but truly is a link. The same is also true in reverse. When we activate a control, we really have to know what it is. The good thing is that we are in ongoing talks with Microsoft, and they have a good accessibility team who now understands what we say. The question is how hard they want to enforce good practices on developers. If I'm an evangelist for something, I tell you how good it is. If I own something you want to use, tell you this is the procedure, and then in force it, I get consistency. If this were security we were talking about, Microsoft would not be evangelizing it. They would be demanding it. It is getting the development community to see that accessibility is not just a nice thing to do but actually the right, just,  and necessary thing to do.
> 
>> On Oct 12, 2020, at 4:33 PM, Gary Wunder via NFBMO <nfbmo at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I couldn't agree more with the concept. I am wrestling with how we might
>> implement this. Software developers, like authors, professors, artists,
>> musicians, and poets are always looking for a way to be unique, to make
>> their product stand out. One of the problems screen readers have is that
>> people don't always use the functions that Microsoft provides in Windows for
>> designating a button, a check box, a list box, etc. They think that the way
>> they draw the buttons on the screen makes their product stand out. For all
>> of Microsoft's interest in accessibility, they have wanted to evangelize
>> rather than enforce. Perhaps this will change over time, and what was once
>> acceptable becomes unacceptable. But again, I love the idea!
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMO <nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Daniel Garcia via NFBMO
>> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 1:39 PM
>> To: NFB of Missouri Mailing List <nfbmo at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Daniel Garcia <dangarcia3 at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMO] Question about making computer technology 100%
>> accessible
>> 
>> In the world of manufacturing there is this notion of "poka yoke" devices.
>> This concept was imported from the Japanese and it means "mistake-proof."
>> When someone tries to assemble something there is only one way it can be
>> assembled.
>> 
>> I think we need to get to the point that whenever someone codes software,
>> apps, or a website, mistake-proofing is built-in. Even if someone
>> deliberately wanted to make software not usable by the blind, they could
>> not. Thousands of software programs, apps, and websites are coded every
>> year. We cannot keep playing this whack-a-mole game because we are never
>> going to win.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Daniel
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMO <nfbmo-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Michael Walker via NFBMO
>> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 10:42 AM
>> To: NFBMO at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Michael Walker <michael.walker199014 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [NFBMO] Question about making computer technology 100% accessible
>> 
>> Dear national Federation of the blind of Missouri,
>> 
>> What can I do, to contribute to making software and websites 100%
>> accessible? I am sure many of you have faced the frustrations I have with
>> not being able to access certain websites. Some people tell me that I should
>> accept that somethings just will not be accessible. I find I struggle with
>> that. I feel like those issues need to be fixed.  Sometimes, accessibility
>> feels like a cat and mouse game. A website or program might be accessible,
>> but then an upgrade breaks the accessibility. Can the world ever be 100%
>> accessible? What do you think?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Mike
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