[NFBMT] Chromebook
Jim Marks
blind.grizzly at gmail.com
Wed May 16 18:16:03 UTC 2018
Great discussion!
I think browsers and web design are more to blame for access problems than
are the screen readers. For sure, screen reader development lags behind
browser development, though. I say this because one of my IT review
partners is sighted, and she sees massive differences in the visual
information displayed on various browsers. Internet Explorer is getting
worse and worse because it is not being developed. Chrome seems to be the
best browser with Firefox a close second. MS Edge is getting better,
especially now that Microsoft made Narrator work so well with MS Edge. As
mentioned previously, MS Edge does not work well with either Jaws or NVDA at
this time. I think Jaws remains superior to NVDA, but the advantages of
high-priced Jaws probably don't warrant ignoring the free NVDA. Those
starting out are probably best off with NVDA. And I respect those who
choose NVDA as their best option.
While expressing opinions about technology, I have a bit of sacrilege to
offer. I hate Apple products. Sure, Voiceover is built-in, and the
accessibility of Apple products is elegant and robust. Most blind people in
the US use Apple products for these sound reasons. Worldwide, Android is
more popular for both the sighted and blind. My beef with Apple is that it
is such a corporate controlled system. Apple leaders never gave a hoot for
the input of those they serve. They preferred their own visionary
leadership by building products they knew the public would love. Despite
delivering a solid performing product, this means people get what they are
given, and the custodial attitude of Apple rubs me the wrong way. That's
why I've always been an Android guy even when Android accessibility
seriously lagged behind Apple. To be honest, I started out with Android,
and my familiarity with Android drives some of my preference for Android.
The same could explain my preference for Jaws.
Lastly, the diversity of devices available in the Android world provides a
greater number of choices for consumers than Apple does. My phone is a Moto
Z Force, the only phone on the market with a nearly unbreakable touch
screen. My phone also has the feature of attachments such as extended
battery, JVL speaker, and a physical keyboard. No Apple product comes close
to its flexibility. Android used to be less expensive than Apple, but that
ship sailed a long time ago. One can dish out $1,000 or more for either an
Android or Apple smart phone these days. At the same time, Android offers
quite a few inexpensive choices, and this cost factor may explain why
worldwide Android is more common than Apple is.
Today, the differences between Apple and Android are slight, and Google, the
Android developer, is behaving more and more like Apple does. However,
Android hangs on to respect for what the public wants. I've used Apple
stuff quite a bit, and it's easy to understand why so many US folks prefer
Apple. I would never counsel anyone to abandon Apple, but I definitely do
recommend that blind users learn Android. Android is the basis for so many
of the products we use from electronic book users to Braille note takers.
Jim Marks
Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
(406) 438-1421
-----Original Message-----
From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Burke via
NFBMT
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 11:15 AM
To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
We were just in a strategic planning session at CCB the other day and I
brought up the state of web browsers and screen readers as a problem in our
SWOT exercise. Now, I admit that I haven't used Internet explorer for maybe
ten years, I've disliked it that much, xcept there are some things that I
couldn't do or find in Firefox. Recently upgrades to Firefox totally aced
out JAWS - and for a while NVDA. Now NVDA works with Firefox and JAWS still
doesn't work right, though some will tell me it does. So what does this
mean? Edge isn't yet viable as a browser for screen reader users. Internet
explorer, as I love to point out, is no longer a modern screen reader as
defined by some web sites. Jaws doesn't work with firefox.
So in the past six months or so I've gone from using JAWS about 50 percent
of the time to about 5 percent of the time, and NVDA about 95 percent of the
time. Yet this morning I turned it on to work on our Colorado Gives massive
website because NVDA wasn't showing me things I knew must be there.
My argument here is that we're in a crappy place for screen readers and
browsers at the moment, but also that JAWS isn't king anymore. It doesn't
have the advantages over NVDA that it once have, and it doesn't have the web
capabilities to blow everything else out of the water anymore. And web
access is where everything is now - school, work, personal banking, shopping
and entertainment. I'm not sure JAWS is even a prince now, but maybe only a
besotted old earl. (grin)
So a training at the convention on the use of NVDA is a good idea. It 's
free and it would be handy for anyone to be able to switch over to it if
they get stuck or frustrated on a web site at some point, just as I
switched to JAWS this morning.
Best,
Dan
On 5/16/18, Edward Robbins via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Great suggestion.
> Ted
>
> EDWARD C "TED" ROBBINS, E-MAIL: ecrobbins517 at gmail.com CEO MBEI &
> Treasurer NFB of Montana PHONE & FAX: 406 453 6678, CELL: 406 799
> 6268
> 104 RIVERVIEW 5 E
> GREAT FALLS MT 59404
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim Marks via
> NFBMT
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:25 AM
> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jim Marks <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
> You know, it might be a good idea to invite BLVS to provide a training
> session of some sort at convention. For example, BLVS staff could
> teach us how to use NVDA on a Windows 10 system. I think this would
> be more useful to more people than a training on a Chromebook because
> NVDA and Windows 10 are used by many of our members. Chromebooks are
> mostly a tool for education. Another idea is for BLVS to show us how
> to access online information about technology. There are a ton of
> resources out there that include text tutorials, video tutorials, and
> podcasts. I tend to use Blind Bargains and Flying Blind. Access
> World also has some good stuff, and the NFB technology folks do a
> terrific job of informing us. For example, I see that the NFB is offering
a free online training for Narrator on May 21.
> Good podcasts include Blind Bargains, The Blind Side, and Cool Blind Tech.
> I bet BLVS would be pleased to offer the training, and it would help
> the NFB-MT connect with BLVS in positive ways. Plus, it could attract
> new members to our convention.
>
>
> Jim Marks
> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
> (406) 438-1421
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of BRESLAUERS
> via NFBMT
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:11 AM
> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: BRESLAUERS <breslauerj at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
> In order to do a tutorial session over the phone, each student would
> have to have access to a Chrome book. Maybe that would be something
> fun to do at convention. We have often talked about having a
> technology fair. Joy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBMT <nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jim Marks via
> NFBMT
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 8:57 AM
> To: 'NFB of Montana Discussion List' <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jim Marks <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
> Sure, I would be willing to share what I've learned. In the case of
> ChromeVox, the screen reader for Chrome OS and Chromebooks, Google
> provides really good tutorials online. The tutorials consist of both
> text and video-based lessons.
> Mastering technology is never achieved by anyone because technology
> develops very rapidly. We are all stuck in a perpetual learning
> curve. For instance, I learned last night that the Android apps on a
> Chromebook use the Talkback screen reader built into Android. I had
> to search on Google for directions on how to operate Talkback on the
> Chromebook. What I discovered is that ChromeVox automatically shuts
> off when one goes into an Android app on a Chromebook.
> Talkback takes over, and there are separate commands to operate Talkback.
> These commands are similar to ChromeVox commands, so it wasn't hard to
> learn them. This sort of discovery happens all the time with
> technology. All it takes to manage all the learning is an attitude of
> problem solving, curiosity, and time. Also, a person needs a sense of
> adventure and purpose.
> For sure, the days of running just one screen reader and one operating
> system are gone.
> Technology is more and more going to mobile devices, and the future
> promises more change than any of us think is reasonable. That said,
> it would be good to spend some time teaching one another what we know,
> and I would be happy to do so.
>
>
> Jim Marks
> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
> (406) 438-1421
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m gina
> via NFBMT
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 9:20 PM
> To: nfbmt at nfbnet.org
> Cc: d m gina <dmgina at mysero.net>
> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
> With all the knowledge you have with different screen readers, coud
> you teach it over the phone if someone got the same as you have?
> So far we are in a ten not a mack.
> I find it interesting a friend of mine still uses a mack but went back
> to windows.
>
> Original message:
>> Interestingly enough, my Chromebook out-performed my Windows 10 PC
>> and Android tablet today as I reviewed a website for accessibility
>> and usability. It was a remarkable difference as my Chromebook
>> showed me stuff on the page the others could not handle even a little
bit.
>> Besides the Chrome OS, ChromeVox, and Chrome, I reviewed the site
>> with Jaws and NVDA using Internet Explorer and Firefox as well as
>> with Android, Talkback, and Chrome. The Chromebook handled the page
>> far better than the other tools. Since I was reviewing only one
>> website, it's probably premature to declare the Chromebook the
>> winner. I'll be reviewing many more sites soon, so I'll let all know
>> if the Chromebook success persists. Also, it may be the Chrome
>> browser that's best in any operating system. I did not use Chrome
>> with Jaws or NVDA. Still, using Chrome with Android provided a
>> lesser quality access than Chrome with Chrome OS.
>
>> I'm very sad about how terrible Jaws and IE are these days. IE is
>> rapidly getting out of date. I understand that Microsoft is not
>> continuing IE development because the company is putting its eggs in
>> the MS Edge browser. As far as I know, Jaws does not yet work well
>> with MS Edge. And there are issues using Jaws and Firefox and Chrome
>> browsers as well. NVDA looks pretty good, but Jaws remains the king.
>> My point in mentioning this is that our current IT requires blind
>> users to apply a variety of screen readers and browsers. We talked about
>> this phenomena the other day. Moreover, blind users have to know more
>> than one operating system to stay current. My three are Windows 10,
>> Android, and Chrome OS. Sometime, I will have to rekindle my
>> knowledge of Apple IOS and to learn for the first time how to operate
>> a Mac PC.
>> Hard to accept that I feel nostalgia for simpler technology times.
>> To move forward, diversity in IT is a must, though.
>
>
>> Jim Marks
>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>> (406) 438-1421
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NFBMT [mailto:nfbmt-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Burke
>> via NFBMT
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:32 PM
>> To: NFB of Montana Discussion List <nfbmt at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dan Burke <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFBMT] Chromebook
>
>> Thanks Jim.
>
>> It's actually about the same price as many Android tablets.
>
>> On 5/14/18, Jim Marks via NFBMT <nfbmt at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Here is my initial report on using a Chromebook and its built-in
>>> screen reader, ChromeVox.
>
>
>
>>> I bought the Chromebook on Amazon. It cost $177, and it is a
>>> refurbished Samsung with 4GB RAM and a 32GB SSD. Its 11-inch screen
>>> is not a touch screen. It looks like a regular small laptop.
>
>
>
>>> Chromebooks are designed to run apps and to store date on the cloud.
>>> They primarily use the Google products such as Chrome and G Suite,
>>> but they also run Android apps and other online services such as MS
>>> Office 365. It is possible to use a Chromebook offline, but it's
>>> best when connected to the Internet. Its keyboard is designed for
>>> Chromebook.
>>> For example, it has no F keys, and it includes a new key called the
>>> Search key, and this key is also called the ChromeVox key because
>>> it's used to operate the screen reader much like the Insert key
>>> modifies Jaws keystrokes. Although the Samsun is quite small, it
>>> fits my large hands just fine. I'm using lots of online tutorials
>>> and videos to learn how to operate a Chromebook and to use ChromeVox.
>
>
>
>>> All-in-all, Chromebook and ChromeVox work well. At this point, I do
>>> not think it will replace a PC for me, but it will serve well for
>>> portable computing. I think of it as being like using an Android
>>> smart phone or tablet. Also, now, my user experience is a bit
>>> awkward, mostly because I have yet to commit the ChromeVox
>>> keystrokes to muscle memory. It's happening fast, though, because
>>> ChromeVox is natural even though it means learning new keystrokes
>>> and new ways of doing things. The speech is very responsive and easy to
understand.
>>> I speed up the speech a great deal, and I prefer using the UK
>>> English voice. Insofar as I know, only female voices are available
>>> now. Oh, it is possible to add a refreshable Braille display to a
>>> Chromebook as
> well.
>
>
>
>>> Facebook works very well. I use Chrome and m.facebook.com, and the
>>> experience is quite nice. ChromeVox includes a feature called
>>> "sticky
> key"
>>> in which one quickly presses the Search/ChromeVox key twice, and
>>> then one can navigate with keystrokes that consist of a single key
>>> or two keys pressed simultaneously. When in sticky mode, it's not
>>> possible to type, but all it takes to get out of sticky mode is two
>>> rapid strokes on the Search/ChromeVox key.
>
>
>
>>> I'm having troubles reading Gmail, but this is caused by my
>>> ignorance on the keystrokes. As I learn those keystrokes, I'm
>>> confident I will be able to use Gmail with no problems. I can also
>>> add apps like Aqua Mail or Outlook.
>
>
>
>>> In the future, I'll provide more updates. At this point, I think a
>>> Chromebook would be a very good alternative to an Android tablet
>>> because it operates entirely with a keyboard and because it's
>>> inexpensive. I don't think I could, at this point, recommend a
>>> Chromebook as a replacement for a PC, though.
>
>
>
>>> Best!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Jim Marks
>
>>> Blind.grizzly at gmail.com <mailto:Blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>
>>> (406) 438-1421
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> --
>> Dan Burke
>> President, NFB of Denver
>
>> "Blindness is not what holds you back. You can live the life you want!"
>> My Cell: 406.546.8546
>> Twitter: @DallDonal
>
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> --
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--
Dan Burke
President, NFB of Denver
"Blindness is not what holds you back. You can live the life you want!"
My Cell: 406.546.8546
Twitter: @DallDonal
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