[Ohio-talk] To the NFB haters on this list: was; Re: NFB Resolution

Tue Jul 15 01:10:14 UTC 2014

I just didn't realize there would be so much controversy over it.  It
has gone on all day today too. It is interesting that so much of the
resolution has been complained about on the macvisionary group.

On 7/14/14, Aleeha Dudley via Ohio-talk <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I seem to understand that the objections that a lot of people are having is
> that many games cannot, according to them, be accessible. While I may agree
> with this on some level, I think the broader issue, the accessibility of
> apps which can actually enhance our productivity, is more important. I have
> heard a lot from people saying that we are scaring developers away from
> building apps. I disagree. If they do not want to build accessibility in
> from the ground up, then they don't have any business building on Apple's
> platform. After all, many blind people own some sort of iDevice, and I
> believe that every effort should be made to make all of these apps
> accessible. So, I am glad that Ohio voted for the resolution, and agree that
> there really isn't a problem.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 14, 2014, at 7:32 PM, Barbara Pierce via Ohio-talk
>> <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have attached
>> <Apple App Resolution.doc>
>> the Apple resolution. I do not understand the objections to this issue.
>> Apple has no trouble refusing to put apps in its store that have security
>> problems. We are askig that resolutions that we would be interested in
>> should be accessible or not carried in the store. Apple limits the number
>> of beta testers for apps, so they are not spotting problem apps. We would
>> like to see their commitment to accessibility extended to insisting that
>> apps be accessible and that updates continue to be accessible or warnings
>> given that accessibility has been lost.
>>
>> The objections on the floor seem to come from people who were afraid to
>> put pressure on Apple after their obvious commitment to access in
>> VoiceOver. That seems cowardly to me. Ohio did vote for the resolution.
>>
>> Barbara
>> Barbara Pierce
>> President Emerita
>> National Federation of the Blind of Ohio
>> bpierce at oberlin.net
>> 440-774-8077
>>
>>> On Jul 13, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Marianne Denning via Ohio-talk
>>> <ohio-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was not able to attend the national convention this year, but
>>> apparently, there was a resolution that Apple should make all Idevice
>>> apps accessible.  This has generated a lot of discussion on the
>>> viphone list and I thought I would share it with everyone.  I would
>>> like to hear from people who attended the convention.  Did Ohio vote
>>> to support this resolution?
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: erik burggraaf <erik at erik-burggraaf.com>
>>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 12:13:35 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: To the NFB haters on this list:  was;  Re: NFB Resolution
>>> To: macvisionaries at googlegroups.com
>>>
>>> Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate?  IE, make change for the
>>> better?  IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't
>>> normally do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and
>>> demonstration of the user demand for such change?  THe NFB seems to me
>>> to be doing what an advocacy organization does.  I don't understand
>>> why any one has a problem with this.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Erik Burggraaf
>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5
>>> pm!  The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win!
>>> Click here for detales.
>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that for what
>>>> it's worth...
>>>> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with their
>>>> philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have the power
>>>> to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This isn't a
>>>> matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what I believe
>>>> is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for the
>>>> entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any organization
>>>> should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them to show
>>>> up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't understand how
>>>> NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less why
>>>> they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand what
>>>> they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out there, but
>>>> that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers of the
>>>> apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their applications
>>>> accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines and
>>>> forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it would
>>>> probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is also
>>>> ludicrous.
>>>>
>>>> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for
>>>> appologising for something they never should have published in the first
>>>> place?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple
>>>> developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native controls would
>>>> make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to have these
>>>> checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific labels are
>>>> set, etc etc which would generally make the app more accessible. This is
>>>> also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in
>>>> targetting exactly what needs to be done.
>>>>> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>>> Okay.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I said
>>>>> something.  I well remember how many Mac users strongly criticized the
>>>>> NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over.  That
>>>>> criticism was fully justified:  let there be no doubt about that.  On
>>>>> the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the
>>>>> retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article?  Not many I
>>>>> seem to recall.  Look, it's your business whether or not you hate the
>>>>> NFB and I cannot change your minds about that.  I'm not even going to
>>>>> try.  But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have this kind
>>>>> of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is have a
>>>>> balanced and mature conversation.  Hate us all you want:  but,
>>>>> remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and other
>>>>> Apple products too.  For what it may be worth, I do not hate anyone in
>>>>> the ACB.  Why should I?  They've never done anything to me to merit
>>>>> such hatred.  I would add this.  My own state, Louisiana, voted against
>>>>> the resolution at the convention this year.  This somewhat took me by
>>>>> surprise.  I did not expect that to happen, but it did.  Look, we who
>>>>> are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as much as you
>>>>> do.  I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows again.  I'd
>>>>> sooner be without a computer totally than to do that.  I do not believe
>>>>> it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear the
>>>>> hatreds of the past.  1961 is long gone:  as the hatred of those days
>>>>> should also be.  Condemn what I say if you wish:  (That's your right.):
>>>>>  but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by your hatred
>>>>> of people like me is yourself.  I don't hate you.  You see, it's
>>>>> frightfully simple.  Those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.
>>>>>  Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say:  but,
>>>>> bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and continue
>>>>> to help each other with Apple product issues.  After all, is that not
>>>>> the principal purpose of this list?  When I first joined, I received
>>>>> much good help from the members of this list.  I would hate to depart
>>>>> from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with respect
>>>>> either to the ACB or NFB.  No.  I cannot change how you feel:  but,
>>>>> frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone.
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and iphone user!
>>>>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the
>>>>> blind built-in!
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden <dchittenden at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with Apple. Apple
>>>>>> rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing something
>>>>>> similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take back to
>>>>>> Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are the blind
>>>>>> and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you really need
>>>>>> to dialogue with us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just like Apple
>>>>>> rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may well
>>>>>> become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum from NFB.
>>>>>> As I recall, when Apple did not send an official representative to NFB
>>>>>> National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a few months
>>>>>> later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how horrible
>>>>>> VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do something just as
>>>>>> idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>>>>> Email: dchittenden at gmail.com
>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <theblinddj360 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel the need to point out this article:
>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12
>>>>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was really
>>>>>>> inclined
>>>>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it honestly
>>>>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten Apple at the
>>>>>>> core of the resolution.
>>>>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought I'd
>>>>>>> share.
>>>>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look like a
>>>>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's something that I
>>>>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay attention
>>>>>>> to,
>>>>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on both Mac and
>>>>>>> iOS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb getting money
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> exchange for building in limitations.
>>>>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary.
>>>>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still worshiping at
>>>>>>>> the nfb
>>>>>>>> altar anyway?
>>>>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and?
>>>>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is because
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and interests
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> their own.
>>>>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same people,
>>>>>>>> who BTW
>>>>>>>> have within  themselves the ability to write their own dictionaries
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell  the nfb they have out grown
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> need for such a body anymore.
>>>>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged for
>>>>>>>> another, one
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb create
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> their mindset.
>>>>>>>> Kare
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Karen:
>>>>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping Apple in the
>>>>>>>>> face,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't work,
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not
>>>>>>>>> everything is
>>>>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can find an
>>>>>>>>> app that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My thoughts
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> mainly
>>>>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting for
>>>>>>>>> something like
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine apps on the
>>>>>>>>> iPhone?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their power to
>>>>>>>>> force
>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things out, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this.
>>>>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss with the
>>>>>>>>>> nfb
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size fits all
>>>>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>>>> of blindness?  as in all blind people are interchangeable, and the
>>>>>>>>>> nfb
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> the only source to  tell you how to find a plug and play blind
>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus million of
>>>>>>>>>> them?
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this dialog?
>>>>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android phones are
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> most popular in use now  according to annual surveys,  but this
>>>>>>>>>> dialog
>>>>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple customers
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever.
>>>>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position to speak
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind attached
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the
>>>>>>>>>> individuality
>>>>>>>>>> that is  the rich experience of redefining blindness is not going
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> exist
>>>>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live freely and
>>>>>>>>>> inclusively.
>>>>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software developers
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> fit
>>>>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box?
>>>>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> just my take,
>>>>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not because I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its products
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational intervention.
>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft,
>>>>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its work
>>>>>>>>>>> within
>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, still does
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed.
>>>>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a blanket
>>>>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility. Picking
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it in the
>>>>>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain accessible. I
>>>>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, transit
>>>>>>>>>>> maps,
>>>>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a necessary
>>>>>>>>>>> function
>>>>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do I need it
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to inaccessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it.
>>>>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas, we need
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make its
>>>>>>>>>>> products
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning.
>>>>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box allowing
>>>>>>>>>>> electronics
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general public to
>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an iPhone. We are
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice  for a long time. This
>>>>>>>>>>> type
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look  militant and  ungrateful. What is
>>>>>>>>>>> fair for
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all.
>>>>>>>>>>> Pam Francis
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg
>>>>>>>>>>> <terjestrmberg at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and low vision
>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take care
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>>>>>>>>> fool; he
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>> that dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
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>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>
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>>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053