[Pibe-division] Comment
Sheila Amato
brltrans at verizon.net
Wed Jun 9 02:07:57 UTC 2010
Allison, I like the way you explained this analogy.
Teachers of all kinds of children typically grow up reading and writing
print over their lifetime. Most of them are literate by the time they get to
graduate school.
Teachers of kids who are blind learn braille in a condensed version meaning
one - or two - or three university semesters, or a total of about 30
weeks... less than a year. They are not in a braille-rich environment for
70% of their day, either. Then we expect them to go out and teach it to a
high level of competence. Braille is probably something they have never
experienced before their university teacher training program. They have
probably never transcribed for a student before. If this is our attitude -
that they should have equal skills to print literacy, then we are probably
dooming them to immediate failure.
I absolutely agree with you about the equality of literacy... and our kids
deserve this. But given the inequity of literacy of the teachers, how can
we make it happen? Can we make it happen?
I can envision where this discussion could lead, so let me toss out one
tidbit. The statistics for the passing rate of blind test-takers and sighted
test-takers are not substantially different on the NCLB. For the original
test, it was a 30% pass rate for the blind test-takers, and a 25% pass rate
for the sighted test-takers. Equally abysmal.
Sheila
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Allison Hilliker (NFBA)" <nfbarizona at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 9:53 PM
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
> Hi Sheila and others,
>
> I'm not Arielle, and therefore not as informed about academic research,
> but
> I had some thoughts on your below message.
>
> Sheila wrote:
> "...quantifying teacher competence in assistive technology. Should our
>> teachers be required to demonstrate competence in areas over and above
>> what regular education teachers do?"
>
> I think the difference between requiring Braille competency verses
> assistive
> tech competency is that Braille can be equated to sighted children's
> reading
> and writing. We already require all teachers to be proficient print
> readers
> and writers, so it makes sense that we require teachers of blind kids to
> be
> proficient in blind students reading and writing, AKA Braille.
>
> While assistive technology is a very useful skill to have, technology
> proficiency isn't a requirement for teachers of sighted students. Reading
> and writing are. To me, that makes all the difference.
>
> This equating print literacy to Braille literacy is a common trend among
> folks in the NFB, but for some reason I don't usually see it catching on
> outside of the organization. I'm not sure why that is or what we can do
> about it. But it's definitely something worth working on.
>
> Allison
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 3:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
>> Arielle, I'm going to do a bit of cut and paste here, and intersperse my
>> comments below.
>>
>> I don't see any good reason why these data can't be collected and these
>> results can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
>> I agree!
>>
>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational outcomes
>> in blind children,
>> I sorta disagree here... we don't have a plethora of instruments that are
>> normed on our population of students. Which instruments were you
>> referring to? Assessment is not one of my strong areas. I'd love to know
>> what your list of instruments would include.
>>
>> and plenty of ways to quantify teacher competency as well.
>> I disagree here. We have one test, the NCLB, to quantify teacher
>> competence at an entry level in the production (not the teaching) of the
>> literary braille code. I'm heartened that we have that much, but we need
>> more. What about Nemeth code? music? foreign language, and teaching these
>> codes? what about quantifying teacher competence in assistive technology.
>> Should our teachers be required to demonstrate competence in areas over
>> and above what regular education teachers do? (hey, would we get paid
>> more if we did so?) Many states have TVI certification exams, but not all
>> do. Some of them even contain braille components, but not all do. Some
>> even contain Nemeth components but not all do. Some states don't even
>> have a certification to teach kids who are blind... a generic special
>> education teacher can do it. Where do we start to make reforms?
>>
>> If we lived in a perfect world, what would be your research questions? We
>> shouldn't start off in the middle... I think most folks can agree with
>> the first statement above. So, what would be your research questions that
>> need answers? Maybe we can all participate and figure out where to start.
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 12:40 AM
>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
>>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
>>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are
>>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
>>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my
>>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
>>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
>>> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes
>>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
>>>
>>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
>>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
>>> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
>>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
>>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I
>>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see
>>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
>>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
>>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
>>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
>>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
>>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
>>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
>>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
>>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
>>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over
>>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either
>>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
>>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
>>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
>>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
>>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
>>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already
>>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
>>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
>>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the
>>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we
>>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively
>>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
>>>
>>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
>>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would
>>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
>>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
>>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would
>>>> be to
>>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that
>>>> could
>>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional
>>>> time
>>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
>>>> like to
>>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
>>>> assessment
>>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use
>>>> the
>>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be
>>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to
>>>> a
>>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in
>>>> the
>>>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for the
>>>> child?
>>>>
>>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best
>>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology...
>>>> I
>>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in
>>>> how
>>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and
>>>> find
>>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
>>>> networks
>>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
>>>> were
>>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>>>>
>>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired
>>>> TVI
>>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills
>>>> (or
>>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
>>>> the
>>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard
>>>> stories
>>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always
>>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
>>>> situation
>>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
>>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't
>>>> have
>>>> any other pool to draw from.
>>>>
>>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
>>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate
>>>> about
>>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but
>>>> based
>>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8
>>>> or 9
>>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
>>>> rate in
>>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
>>>> sparks
>>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass
>>>> braille
>>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind
>>>> child
>>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his
>>>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>>>>
>>>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey
>>>> the
>>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.
>>>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
>>>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all
>>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
>>>> We can have poor social skills
>>>> We can have poor mobility skills
>>>>
>>>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
>>>> trying
>>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with
>>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
>>>> teachers.
>>>>
>>>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but
>>>> I
>>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
>>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
>>>> would
>>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and
>>>> grin.
>>>>
>>>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
>>>> educators - or
>>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
>>>> from birth to 21 - or older
>>>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
>>>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or
>>>> congenitally)
>>>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
>>>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a
>>>> daily
>>>> basis.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
>>>> level of
>>>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
>>>> they
>>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
>>>> system
>>>> as well as the parents and doctors.
>>>>
>>>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily
>>>> news
>>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
>>>> not
>>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
>>>> excellent
>>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without
>>>> data
>>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in
>>>> our
>>>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.
>>>>
>>>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the
>>>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain
>>>> the
>>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
>>>> system of
>>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
>>>> graduate
>>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge
>>>> that
>>>> meet national criteria.
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments
>>>> is we
>>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the
>>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
>>>> instruction and
>>>> poor instruction continues.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
>>>> <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>> List"
>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
>>>> standing
>>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
>>>> again.
>>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
>>>> teachers
>>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
>>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
>>>> Kirsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
>>>> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
>>>> there
>>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>>>>
>>>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is
>>>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
>>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
>>>> material
>>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.
>>>>
>>>> Allison
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>> List
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to
>>>> poor
>>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as
>>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students
>>>> exel
>>>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with
>>>> poor
>>>> skills.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot teach what you do not know and
>>>> students
>>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
>>>> research to
>>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
>>>> foolish
>>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
>>>> stand up
>>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
>>>> test my
>>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher
>>>> with
>>>> good skills."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer
>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education
>>>> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on.
>>>> Thank
>>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
>>>> Mackenstadt
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
>>>> To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that
>>>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
>>>> PIBE
>>>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like
>>>> this
>>>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.
>>>> Here
>>>> is the post and my response:
>>>>
>>>> Recently in response to a question posted
>>>> by
>>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
>>>> research
>>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible
>>>> for
>>>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
>>>> steam
>>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
>>>> advocacy
>>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus
>>>> far
>>>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made
>>>> that
>>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
>>>> not
>>>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of
>>>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area,
>>>> for
>>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
>>>> licensing
>>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a
>>>> parent
>>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read
>>>> or
>>>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
>>>> alternative to
>>>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
>>>> research
>>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But
>>>> let
>>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>>>>
>>>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>>>>
>>>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>>>>
>>>> (206)419-9555
>>>>
>>>> cane.travel at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>
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>>>> get
>>>> your account info for Pibe-division:
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
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>>>> your
>>>> account info for Pibe-division:
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
>>>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
>>>> Perandoe Special Education District
>>>> 1525 Locust
>>>> Red Bud, IL 62278
>>>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Pibe-division:
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Pibe-division:
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Pibe-division:
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>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 3:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
>> Arielle, I'm going to do a bit of cut and paste here, and intersperse my
>> comments below.
>>
>> I don't see any good reason why these data can't be collected and these
>> results can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
>> I agree!
>>
>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational outcomes
>> in blind children,
>> I sorta disagree here... we don't have a plethora of instruments that are
>> normed on our population of students. Which instruments were you
>> referring to? Assessment is not one of my strong areas. I'd love to know
>> what your list of instruments would include.
>>
>> and plenty of ways to quantify teacher competency as well.
>> I disagree here. We have one test, the NCLB, to quantify teacher
>> competence at an entry level in the production (not the teaching) of the
>> literary braille code. I'm heartened that we have that much, but we need
>> more. What about Nemeth code? music? foreign language, and teaching these
>> codes? what about quantifying teacher competence in assistive technology.
>> Should our teachers be required to demonstrate competence in areas over
>> and above what regular education teachers do? (hey, would we get paid
>> more if we did so?) Many states have TVI certification exams, but not all
>> do. Some of them even contain braille components, but not all do. Some
>> even contain Nemeth components but not all do. Some states don't even
>> have a certification to teach kids who are blind... a generic special
>> education teacher can do it. Where do we start to make reforms?
>>
>> If we lived in a perfect world, what would be your research questions? We
>> shouldn't start off in the middle... I think most folks can agree with
>> the first statement above. So, what would be your research questions that
>> need answers? Maybe we can all participate and figure out where to start.
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 12:40 AM
>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
>>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
>>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are
>>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
>>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my
>>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
>>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
>>> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes
>>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
>>>
>>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
>>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
>>> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
>>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
>>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I
>>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see
>>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
>>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
>>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
>>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
>>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
>>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
>>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
>>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
>>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
>>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over
>>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either
>>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
>>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
>>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
>>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
>>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
>>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already
>>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
>>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
>>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the
>>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we
>>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively
>>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
>>>
>>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
>>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would
>>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
>>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
>>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would
>>>> be to
>>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that
>>>> could
>>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional
>>>> time
>>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
>>>> like to
>>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
>>>> assessment
>>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use
>>>> the
>>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be
>>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to
>>>> a
>>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in
>>>> the
>>>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for the
>>>> child?
>>>>
>>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best
>>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology...
>>>> I
>>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in
>>>> how
>>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and
>>>> find
>>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
>>>> networks
>>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
>>>> were
>>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>>>>
>>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired
>>>> TVI
>>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills
>>>> (or
>>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
>>>> the
>>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard
>>>> stories
>>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always
>>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
>>>> situation
>>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
>>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't
>>>> have
>>>> any other pool to draw from.
>>>>
>>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
>>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate
>>>> about
>>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but
>>>> based
>>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8
>>>> or 9
>>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
>>>> rate in
>>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
>>>> sparks
>>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass
>>>> braille
>>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind
>>>> child
>>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his
>>>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>>>>
>>>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey
>>>> the
>>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.
>>>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
>>>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all
>>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
>>>> We can have poor social skills
>>>> We can have poor mobility skills
>>>>
>>>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
>>>> trying
>>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with
>>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
>>>> teachers.
>>>>
>>>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but
>>>> I
>>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
>>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
>>>> would
>>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and
>>>> grin.
>>>>
>>>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
>>>> educators - or
>>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
>>>> from birth to 21 - or older
>>>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
>>>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or
>>>> congenitally)
>>>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
>>>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a
>>>> daily
>>>> basis.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
>>>> level of
>>>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
>>>> they
>>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
>>>> system
>>>> as well as the parents and doctors.
>>>>
>>>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily
>>>> news
>>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
>>>> not
>>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
>>>> excellent
>>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without
>>>> data
>>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in
>>>> our
>>>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.
>>>>
>>>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the
>>>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain
>>>> the
>>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
>>>> system of
>>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
>>>> graduate
>>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge
>>>> that
>>>> meet national criteria.
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments
>>>> is we
>>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the
>>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
>>>> instruction and
>>>> poor instruction continues.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
>>>> <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>> List"
>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
>>>> standing
>>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
>>>> again.
>>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
>>>> teachers
>>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
>>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
>>>> Kirsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)
>>>> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
>>>> there
>>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>>>>
>>>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is
>>>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
>>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
>>>> material
>>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.
>>>>
>>>> Allison
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>> List
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to
>>>> poor
>>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as
>>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students
>>>> exel
>>>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with
>>>> poor
>>>> skills.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot teach what you do not know and
>>>> students
>>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
>>>> research to
>>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
>>>> foolish
>>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
>>>> stand up
>>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
>>>> test my
>>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher
>>>> with
>>>> good skills."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer
>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education
>>>> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on.
>>>> Thank
>>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
>>>> Mackenstadt
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
>>>> To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that
>>>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
>>>> PIBE
>>>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like
>>>> this
>>>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.
>>>> Here
>>>> is the post and my response:
>>>>
>>>> Recently in response to a question posted
>>>> by
>>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
>>>> research
>>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible
>>>> for
>>>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
>>>> steam
>>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
>>>> advocacy
>>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus
>>>> far
>>>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made
>>>> that
>>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
>>>> not
>>>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of
>>>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area,
>>>> for
>>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
>>>> licensing
>>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a
>>>> parent
>>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read
>>>> or
>>>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
>>>> alternative to
>>>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
>>>> research
>>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But
>>>> let
>>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>>>>
>>>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>>>>
>>>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>>>>
>>>> (206)419-9555
>>>>
>>>> cane.travel at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
>>>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
>>>> Perandoe Special Education District
>>>> 1525 Locust
>>>> Red Bud, IL 62278
>>>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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