[Pibe-division] Comment
Sheila Amato
brltrans at verizon.net
Mon Jun 14 23:39:11 UTC 2010
This is a wonderful question, Allison... you wrote, "I think *that's*
something that we should be looking at in our future research. Why do some
sighted teachers become highly skilled in Braille while others do not?" I'm
already thinking about how this question could become the starting point for
a research study.
As my mind meanders, I do believe that some of this is based on whether or
not a teacher uses braille with student on his/her caseload. The more you
braille, the better you will get. I know personally of some teachers who
have been teaching 10 or more years and have never been asked to teach a
student who uses braille. They would panic if they heard they were getting a
student who used braille. Their skills are THAT rusty.
On the flip side, I left a job in a school that I enjoyed BECAUSE of the
intense braille required by the district where I teach now (for 8 more days
until retirement). And believe me, I'm worried aplenty about who they will
hire (if they will be able to find a certified TVI), and whether or not this
person will be able to walk in on the first day of school and braille
trigonometry and chemistry, because that's what my 11th grade student is
taking.
But I realistically know that some folks will get it (learning braille to a
high degree of proficiency)... and others will not. But I don't know why.
I see this in my university classes all the time. Some graduate students
struggle, and despite hours of work and tutoring, they do not pass the
course. Others seem to absorb it by osmosis and thrive on the challenge and
put in hours of work and effort in creating accurate braille and look for
more.
Perhaps an analogy might help... Now, of course we cannot generalize, but
I'm choosing a specific example from my own career to explain my point. Why
do students (not graduate students, but students in elementary or middle or
high school) who come from affluent homes with parents who are well educated
and employed and supportive of their children... these children who seem to
have all of the advantages of life crash and burn in high school... and
sometimes we have students who come from a dysfunctional or a single parent
home, with no homework support or a quiet place to study - or even a stable
roof over their head... why does this student become valedictorian? How much
is nature... how much is nurture... and how much is that intangible internal
something that makes a person want to succeed?
And how do we define that intangible internal something, for therein, I
believe, lies the key.
Sheila
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Allison Hilliker (NFBA)" <nfbarizona at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 10:45 PM
To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
<pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
> You make some great points, Sheila. I suspect that we agree on many
> things. :)
>
> When referring to ttteachers, you wrote: "...They are not in a
> braille-rich
> environment for
>> 70% of their day... Then we expect them to go out and teach it to a
>> high level of competence.
>
> I don't think that most blind kids or adults are exposed to Braille for
> 70%
> of their day either. There just isn't enough Braille available, and they
> miss
> the incidental reading that sighted people get from their surroundings.
> Maybe that's part of the reason you didn't see much difference between the
> Braille test scores of sighted and blind readers.
>
> Nevertheless, I understand and appreciate your point about how it's hard
> to
> expect a teacher who is brand new to Braille to be literate as quickly as
> someone who has been exposed to it throughout her/her whole life. I'm
> glad you highlighted that point because it's something a lot of us don't
> think about .
>
> Sheila wrote: "I absolutely agree with you about the equality of
> literacy...
> But given the inequity of literacy of the teachers, how can
>> we make it happen? Can we make it happen?"
>
> I know we can, and here's why. The two sighted teachers of blind kids who
> I
> talk to most often, Emily and Debbie, are phenomenal Braille readers.
> They
> didn't have years of exposure to Braille before attending their university
> training programs, but somehow they have great Braille skills. These two
> women are from two different states and received their teacher
> certification
> from two different universities. They're roughly 15 years apart in age.
> One works at a school for the blind and the other is an itinerant teacher.
> I don't think the women even know one another. I'm not sure what
> separates these
> two teachers from the other 70% or so of TVIs who do not become
> Braille-proficient. But I think *that's* something that we should be
> looking
> at in our future research. Why do some sighted teachers become highly
> skilled in Braille while others do not?
>
> Okay, I know the above question could be asked in regards to several
> populations of Braille readers, but still I've met enough successful
> sighted
> Braillers that I think that expecting greater Braille proficiency from our
> teachers is a reasonable goal.
>
> JMO,
> Allison
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>
>
>> Allison, I like the way you explained this analogy.
>> Teachers of all kinds of children typically grow up reading and writing
>> print over their lifetime. Most of them are literate by the time they get
>> to graduate school.
>>
>> Teachers of kids who are blind learn braille in a condensed version
>> meaning one - or two - or three university semesters, or a total of about
>> 30 weeks... less than a year. They are not in a braille-rich environment
>> for 70% of their day, either. Then we expect them to go out and teach it
>> to a high level of competence. Braille is probably something they have
>> never experienced before their university teacher training program. They
>> have probably never transcribed for a student before. If this is our
>> attitude - that they should have equal skills to print literacy, then we
>> are probably dooming them to immediate failure.
>>
>> I absolutely agree with you about the equality of literacy... and our
>> kids
>> deserve this. But given the inequity of literacy of the teachers, how
>> can
>> we make it happen? Can we make it happen?
>>
>> I can envision where this discussion could lead, so let me toss out one
>> tidbit. The statistics for the passing rate of blind test-takers and
>> sighted test-takers are not substantially different on the NCLB. For the
>> original test, it was a 30% pass rate for the blind test-takers, and a
>> 25%
>> pass rate for the sighted test-takers. Equally abysmal.
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Allison Hilliker (NFBA)" <nfbarizona at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 9:53 PM
>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Sheila and others,
>>>
>>> I'm not Arielle, and therefore not as informed about academic research,
>>> but
>>> I had some thoughts on your below message.
>>>
>>> Sheila wrote:
>>> "...quantifying teacher competence in assistive technology. Should our
>>>> teachers be required to demonstrate competence in areas over and above
>>>> what regular education teachers do?"
>>>
>>> I think the difference between requiring Braille competency verses
>>> assistive
>>> tech competency is that Braille can be equated to sighted children's
>>> reading
>>> and writing. We already require all teachers to be proficient print
>>> readers
>>> and writers, so it makes sense that we require teachers of blind kids to
>>> be
>>> proficient in blind students reading and writing, AKA Braille.
>>>
>>> While assistive technology is a very useful skill to have, technology
>>> proficiency isn't a requirement for teachers of sighted students.
>>> Reading
>>> and writing are. To me, that makes all the difference.
>>>
>>> This equating print literacy to Braille literacy is a common trend among
>>> folks in the NFB, but for some reason I don't usually see it catching on
>>> outside of the organization. I'm not sure why that is or what we can do
>>> about it. But it's definitely something worth working on.
>>>
>>> Allison
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 3:25 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>
>>>
>>>> Arielle, I'm going to do a bit of cut and paste here, and intersperse
>>>> my
>>>> comments below.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any good reason why these data can't be collected and these
>>>> results can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous
>>>> manner.
>>>> I agree!
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
>>>> outcomes
>>>> in blind children,
>>>> I sorta disagree here... we don't have a plethora of instruments that
>>>> are normed on our population of students. Which instruments were you
>>>> referring to? Assessment is not one of my strong areas. I'd love to
>>>> know
>>>> what your list of instruments would include.
>>>>
>>>> and plenty of ways to quantify teacher competency as well.
>>>> I disagree here. We have one test, the NCLB, to quantify teacher
>>>> competence at an entry level in the production (not the teaching) of
>>>> the
>>>> literary braille code. I'm heartened that we have that much, but we
>>>> need
>>>> more. What about Nemeth code? music? foreign language, and teaching
>>>> these codes? what about quantifying teacher competence in assistive
>>>> technology. Should our teachers be required to demonstrate competence
>>>> in
>>>> areas over and above what regular education teachers do? (hey, would we
>>>> get paid more if we did so?) Many states have TVI certification exams,
>>>> but not all do. Some of them even contain braille components, but not
>>>> all do. Some even contain Nemeth components but not all do. Some states
>>>> don't even have a certification to teach kids who are blind... a
>>>> generic
>>>> special education teacher can do it. Where do we start to make reforms?
>>>>
>>>> If we lived in a perfect world, what would be your research questions?
>>>> We shouldn't start off in the middle... I think most folks can agree
>>>> with the first statement above. So, what would be your research
>>>> questions that need answers? Maybe we can all participate and figure
>>>> out
>>>> where to start.
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 12:40 AM
>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
>>>>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
>>>>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are
>>>>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
>>>>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my
>>>>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
>>>>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
>>>>> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes
>>>>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
>>>>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
>>>>> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
>>>>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
>>>>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I
>>>>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see
>>>>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
>>>>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
>>>>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
>>>>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
>>>>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
>>>>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
>>>>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
>>>>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
>>>>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
>>>>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over
>>>>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either
>>>>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
>>>>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
>>>>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
>>>>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
>>>>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
>>>>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already
>>>>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
>>>>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
>>>>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the
>>>>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we
>>>>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively
>>>>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
>>>>>
>>>>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
>>>>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would
>>>>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
>>>>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
>>>>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would
>>>>>> be to
>>>>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough
>>>>>> instructional time
>>>>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
>>>>>> like to
>>>>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
>>>>>> assessment
>>>>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> child?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new)
>>>>>> technology... I
>>>>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
>>>>>> networks
>>>>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a
>>>>>> retired TVI
>>>>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills
>>>>>> (or
>>>>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard
>>>>>> stories
>>>>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
>>>>>> situation
>>>>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
>>>>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> any other pool to draw from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
>>>>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but
>>>>>> based
>>>>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or
>>>>>> 8
>>>>>> or 9
>>>>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
>>>>>> rate in
>>>>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
>>>>>> sparks
>>>>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass
>>>>>> braille
>>>>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
>>>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind
>>>>>> child
>>>>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his
>>>>>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately
>>>>>> convey the
>>>>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.
>>>>>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
>>>>>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
>>>>>> We can have poor social skills
>>>>>> We can have poor mobility skills
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
>>>>>> trying
>>>>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual...
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
>>>>>> teachers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
>>>>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and
>>>>>> grin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
>>>>>> educators - or
>>>>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
>>>>>> from birth to 21 - or older
>>>>>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
>>>>>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> congenitally)
>>>>>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
>>>>>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> daily
>>>>>> basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
>>>>>> level of
>>>>>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
>>>>>> system
>>>>>> as well as the parents and doctors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the
>>>>>> daily news
>>>>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without
>>>>>> data
>>>>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and
>>>>>> gain
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
>>>>>> system of
>>>>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
>>>>>> graduate
>>>>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
>>>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>> meet national criteria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
>>>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these
>>>>>> comments
>>>>>> is we
>>>>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the
>>>>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
>>>>>> instruction and
>>>>>> poor instruction continues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
>>>>>> <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>>>> List"
>>>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
>>>>>> standing
>>>>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
>>>>>> again.
>>>>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
>>>>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
>>>>>> Kirsten
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker
>>>>>> (NFBA)
>>>>>> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
>>>>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
>>>>>> material
>>>>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind
>>>>>> kids.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allison
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>>>> List
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their
>>>>>> students exel
>>>>>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You cannot teach what you do not know and
>>>>>> students
>>>>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
>>>>>> research to
>>>>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
>>>>>> foolish
>>>>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
>>>>>> stand up
>>>>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
>>>>>> test my
>>>>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
>>>>>> teacher with
>>>>>> good skills."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
>>>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer
>>>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness
>>>>>> Education
>>>>>> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right
>>>>>> on.
>>>>>> Thank
>>>>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
>>>>>> Mackenstadt
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
>>>>>> To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that
>>>>>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
>>>>>> PIBE
>>>>>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.
>>>>>> Here
>>>>>> is the post and my response:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently in response to a question posted
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
>>>>>> research
>>>>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are
>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
>>>>>> steam
>>>>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
>>>>>> advocacy
>>>>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And
>>>>>> thus
>>>>>> far
>>>>>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
>>>>>> made that
>>>>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject
>>>>>> area, for
>>>>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
>>>>>> licensing
>>>>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a
>>>>>> parent
>>>>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not
>>>>>> read
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
>>>>>> alternative to
>>>>>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
>>>>>> research
>>>>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> let
>>>>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (206)419-9555
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cane.travel at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>>> or get
>>>>>> your account info for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> account info for Pibe-division:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
>>>>>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
>>>>>> Perandoe Special Education District
>>>>>> 1525 Locust
>>>>>> Red Bud, IL 62278
>>>>>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This message and all attachments are confidential.
>>>>>> Any
>>>>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the
>>>>>> intended
>>>>>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at
>>>>>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form)
>>>>>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail,
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic
>>>>>> signature.
>>>>>> Thank
>>>>>> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance
>>>>>> Portability
>>>>>> and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws.
>>>>>> Improper or
>>>>>> unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in
>>>>>> civil
>>>>>> and/or criminal penalties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Pibe-division:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Pibe-division:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Pibe-division:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 3:25 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>
>>>
>>>> Arielle, I'm going to do a bit of cut and paste here, and intersperse
>>>> my
>>>> comments below.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any good reason why these data can't be collected and these
>>>> results can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous
>>>> manner.
>>>> I agree!
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
>>>> outcomes
>>>> in blind children,
>>>> I sorta disagree here... we don't have a plethora of instruments that
>>>> are normed on our population of students. Which instruments were you
>>>> referring to? Assessment is not one of my strong areas. I'd love to
>>>> know
>>>> what your list of instruments would include.
>>>>
>>>> and plenty of ways to quantify teacher competency as well.
>>>> I disagree here. We have one test, the NCLB, to quantify teacher
>>>> competence at an entry level in the production (not the teaching) of
>>>> the
>>>> literary braille code. I'm heartened that we have that much, but we
>>>> need
>>>> more. What about Nemeth code? music? foreign language, and teaching
>>>> these codes? what about quantifying teacher competence in assistive
>>>> technology. Should our teachers be required to demonstrate competence
>>>> in
>>>> areas over and above what regular education teachers do? (hey, would we
>>>> get paid more if we did so?) Many states have TVI certification exams,
>>>> but not all do. Some of them even contain braille components, but not
>>>> all do. Some even contain Nemeth components but not all do. Some states
>>>> don't even have a certification to teach kids who are blind... a
>>>> generic
>>>> special education teacher can do it. Where do we start to make reforms?
>>>>
>>>> If we lived in a perfect world, what would be your research questions?
>>>> We shouldn't start off in the middle... I think most folks can agree
>>>> with the first statement above. So, what would be your research
>>>> questions that need answers? Maybe we can all participate and figure
>>>> out
>>>> where to start.
>>>>
>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 12:40 AM
>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others
>>>>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when
>>>>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are
>>>>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching
>>>>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my
>>>>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that
>>>>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working
>>>>> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes
>>>>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid
>>>>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still
>>>>> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate
>>>>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a
>>>>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I
>>>>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see
>>>>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results
>>>>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.
>>>>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational
>>>>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher
>>>>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers
>>>>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but
>>>>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille
>>>>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can
>>>>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how
>>>>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over
>>>>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either
>>>>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious
>>>>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for
>>>>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the
>>>>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if
>>>>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can
>>>>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already
>>>>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by
>>>>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those
>>>>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the
>>>>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we
>>>>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively
>>>>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.
>>>>>
>>>>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I
>>>>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would
>>>>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience
>>>>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been
>>>>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would
>>>>>> be to
>>>>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough
>>>>>> instructional time
>>>>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would
>>>>>> like to
>>>>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media
>>>>>> assessment
>>>>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> child?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new)
>>>>>> technology... I
>>>>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more
>>>>>> networks
>>>>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a
>>>>>> retired TVI
>>>>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills
>>>>>> (or
>>>>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard
>>>>>> stories
>>>>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a
>>>>>> situation
>>>>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching
>>>>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> any other pool to draw from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40
>>>>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but
>>>>>> based
>>>>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or
>>>>>> 8
>>>>>> or 9
>>>>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure
>>>>>> rate in
>>>>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that
>>>>>> sparks
>>>>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass
>>>>>> braille
>>>>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM
>>>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind
>>>>>> child
>>>>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his
>>>>>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans at verizon.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"
>>>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately
>>>>>> convey the
>>>>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.
>>>>>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille
>>>>>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille
>>>>>> We can have poor social skills
>>>>>> We can have poor mobility skills
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am
>>>>>> trying
>>>>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual...
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are
>>>>>> teachers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher
>>>>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and
>>>>>> grin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular
>>>>>> educators - or
>>>>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:
>>>>>> from birth to 21 - or older
>>>>>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)
>>>>>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> congenitally)
>>>>>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities
>>>>>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> daily
>>>>>> basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high
>>>>>> level of
>>>>>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational
>>>>>> system
>>>>>> as well as the parents and doctors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the
>>>>>> daily news
>>>>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be
>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without
>>>>>> data
>>>>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and
>>>>>> gain
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a
>>>>>> system of
>>>>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who
>>>>>> graduate
>>>>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and
>>>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>> meet national criteria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM
>>>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these
>>>>>> comments
>>>>>> is we
>>>>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the
>>>>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of
>>>>>> instruction and
>>>>>> poor instruction continues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson
>>>>>> <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson at perandoe.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>>>> List"
>>>>>> <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for
>>>>>> standing
>>>>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over
>>>>>> again.
>>>>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed
>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time
>>>>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!
>>>>>> Kirsten
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker
>>>>>> (NFBA)
>>>>>> <nfbarizona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely
>>>>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the
>>>>>> material
>>>>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind
>>>>>> kids.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allison
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson
>>>>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division
>>>>>> List
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their
>>>>>> students exel
>>>>>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You cannot teach what you do not know and
>>>>>> students
>>>>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal
>>>>>> research to
>>>>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a
>>>>>> foolish
>>>>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to
>>>>>> stand up
>>>>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and
>>>>>> test my
>>>>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a
>>>>>> teacher with
>>>>>> good skills."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105
>>>>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired
>>>>>> 509-969-3622
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer
>>>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer
>>>>>> <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness
>>>>>> Education
>>>>>> Division List'" <pibe-division at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right
>>>>>> on.
>>>>>> Thank
>>>>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise
>>>>>> Mackenstadt
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM
>>>>>> To: pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that
>>>>>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the
>>>>>> PIBE
>>>>>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.
>>>>>> Here
>>>>>> is the post and my response:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently in response to a question posted
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published
>>>>>> research
>>>>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are
>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full
>>>>>> steam
>>>>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by
>>>>>> advocacy
>>>>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And
>>>>>> thus
>>>>>> far
>>>>>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being
>>>>>> made that
>>>>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject
>>>>>> area, for
>>>>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state
>>>>>> licensing
>>>>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a
>>>>>> parent
>>>>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not
>>>>>> read
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an
>>>>>> alternative to
>>>>>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate
>>>>>> research
>>>>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> let
>>>>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (206)419-9555
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cane.travel at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>>> or get
>>>>>> your account info for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> account info for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> account info for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson%40perandoe.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.
>>>>>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments
>>>>>> Perandoe Special Education District
>>>>>> 1525 Locust
>>>>>> Red Bud, IL 62278
>>>>>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This message and all attachments are confidential.
>>>>>> Any
>>>>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the
>>>>>> intended
>>>>>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at
>>>>>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form)
>>>>>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail,
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic
>>>>>> signature.
>>>>>> Thank
>>>>>> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance
>>>>>> Portability
>>>>>> and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws.
>>>>>> Improper or
>>>>>> unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in
>>>>>> civil
>>>>>> and/or criminal penalties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account
>>>>>> info for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> info
>>>>>> for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> info
>>>>>> for Pibe-division:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Pibe-division:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Pibe-division:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Pibe-division:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pibe-division mailing list
>>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Pibe-division:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pibe-division mailing list
>> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Pibe-division:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pibe-division mailing list
> Pibe-division at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Pibe-division:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net
>
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