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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">AMEN, Sheila!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> Here in New York State, we are also fighting our own Office of Teaching Initiatives, who want to REDUCE the number of hours for special education teachers who want to become certified as Teacher of the Blind and Visually Impaired to 9 credit hours! How in the world are our teacher preparation programs going to fit all of the necessary skills: Braille (including Nemeth Code, textbook format, specialized codes) and Tactile Graphics, Eye Anatomy, Low Vision, Methods and Materials, Assistive Technology, Psycho-Social Issues of Sensory Loss, etc., etc. - into 9 measly hours? Not to mention the fact that the Teacher Certification Department is so understaffed that it's close to impossible to communicate with anyone by phone, email, or fax, not to mention traveling to Albany to speak to anyone in person!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> Add to this the fact that far too many "regular" and special educators are taught little or nothing whatsoever about teaching blind or visually students and therefore are resistant to having our students in their classes because they are so ill-prepared. This has probably led to the fact that the special education "experts" in the State Education Department refuse to accept the Expanded Core Curriculum of the National Agenda, saying that it "flies in the face of No Child Left Behind because it assumes a "different curriculum" for blind students. Well, how many sighted students do you know who have IEP objectives to learn to use a long white cane and/or low vision devices?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> What we need is to get the attention of those who make the national education policy decisions in order to educate them about the unique needs of blind students addressed in the ECC and the critical shortages of professionals who work with them! Please join with me in NFB's TeachBlindStudents.org program and work collaboratively to design creative ways to ensure a sufficient number of QUALITY teachers for blind and visually impaired students nationwide! Go to </FONT><A href="http://www.teachblindstudents.org"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">www.teachblindstudents.org</FONT></A><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> or contact Rosy Carranza <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT size=3>(410) 659-9314, ext. 2283 or </FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><A href="mailto:RCarranza@nfb.org"><FONT size=3>RCarranza@nfb.org</FONT></A> </SPAN></SPAN>TODAY! Our students and our professions are at risk!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">(Exit from soap box, stage left)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_s1027 style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.25pt; Z-INDEX: -1; MARGIN-LEFT: 166.05pt; WIDTH: 198pt; POSITION: absolute; HEIGHT: 18.6pt" fillcolor="window" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title="canebar" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\jpiscite\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">- Judi Piscitello, TVI, COMS<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma">“The most important thing in this life is helping others to win, even if that means slowing down and changing our own race.” – Author Unknown</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <BR><BR>>>> <pibe-division-request@nfbnet.org> 6/8/2010 12:24 PM >>><BR>Send Pibe-division mailing list submissions to<BR>pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR>pibe-division-request@nfbnet.org<BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR>pibe-division-owner@nfbnet.org<BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of Pibe-division digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Re: Comment (Sheila Amato)<BR> 2. Re: Comment (Dr. Denise M. Robinson)<BR> 3. Re: Comment (Sheila Amato)<BR> 4. Re: Comment (Arielle Silverman)<BR> 5. Re: Comment (Allison Hilliker (NFBA))<BR> 6. Re: Comment (Melissa Green)<BR> 7. FW: TVI position open in Madison,updated application<BR> information (Hyde, David W. (ESC))<BR> 8. Re: [spam] Re: Comment (Mary Willows)<BR> 9. Re: Comment (Dr. Denise M. Robinson)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:42:30 -0400<BR>From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID: <BAFA68A068B6437CB0666530CD17C547@SATELLITE><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways... <BR><BR>We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey the scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>We can have poor social skills<BR>We can have poor mobility skills<BR><BR>Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am trying to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR><BR>I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and grin.<BR><BR>This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators - or even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>from birth to 21 - or older<BR>those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR>in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a daily basis.<BR><BR>I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level of proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best they can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational system as well as the parents and doctors. <BR><BR>We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily news and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in our field highly outnumber the bad ones. <BR><BR>The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain the proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge that meet national criteria.<BR><BR>Sheila<BR><BR><BR>From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is we have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and poor instruction continues.<BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR> 509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org> wrote:<BR><BR><BR> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR><BR><BR> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again. It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time allows, rather than as an absolute necessity! <BR> Kirsten <BR><BR><BR> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR><BR> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids. <BR><BR> Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students exel and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills. <BR><BR> You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher with good skills." <BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR> 509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR><BR><BR> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR> From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR> To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like this comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post and my response: <BR><BR> Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics. <BR><BR> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR><BR> Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR><BR> (206)419-9555<BR><BR> cane.travel@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com <BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com <BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson@perandoe.org<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> -- <BR> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed. <BR> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR> Perandoe Special Education District<BR> 1525 Locust <BR> Red Bud, IL 62278<BR> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR><BR><BR> This message and all attachments are confidential. Any review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the intended recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form) without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing in this message should be construed as a digital or electronic signature. Thank you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws. Improper or unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in civil and/or criminal penalties. <BR><BR><BR> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/attachments/20100607/21381051/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 17:03:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>From: "Dr. Denise M. Robinson" <dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com><BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID: <759804.37708.qm@web52405.mail.re2.yahoo.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Sheila<BR>?<BR>I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind child who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR><BR><BR>?????? Denise <BR>?<BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR>--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways... <BR>?<BR>We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey the scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>We can have poor social skills<BR>We can have poor mobility skills<BR>?<BR>Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am trying to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR>?<BR>I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and grin.<BR>?<BR>This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators - or even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>from birth to 21 - or older<BR>those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>those with vision loss and?multiple disabilities<BR>in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a daily basis.<BR>?<BR>I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level of proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best they can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational system as well as the parents and doctors. <BR>?<BR>We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily news and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not?sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in our field ?highly outnumber the bad ones. <BR>?<BR>The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain the proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge that meet national criteria.<BR>?<BR>Sheila<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>The REALLY bad thing about the content of?these comments is we have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and poor instruction continues.<BR><BR><BR>?????? Denise <BR>?<BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR>--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR><BR><BR><BR>I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again. It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time allows, rather than as an absolute necessity! <BR>Kirsten <BR><BR><BR>On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>?<BR>?<BR>Well said, Denise!? I'm glad we have teachers out there like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR>?<BR>It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied when many people teach blind kids.? Concepts that are widely accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.? <BR>?<BR>Allison<BR>?<BR>?<BR>?<BR>?<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR><BR><BR><BR>Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their?students exel and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills. <BR>?<BR>You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher with good skills." <BR><BR><BR>?????? Denise <BR>?<BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR>--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR>Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR>To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. ?I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. ?Every time I think that we are making progress something like this comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post and my response: <BR><BR><BR><BR>Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1.? still no published research proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor braille outcomes for students.? Nevertheless,? we've gone full steam ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist.? Assertions by advocacy groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches.? We need DATA.? And thus ? far no data exists."? I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not relevant to student outcomes.? Lack of Data? cannot ? take the place of common sense or best practice.? I cannot think of another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence.? As a parent I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or write<BR>English.? Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA Collection.? I do not want to say that legitimate research and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.? But let us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.?<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR><BR>Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR><BR>(206)419-9555<BR><BR><BR><BR>cane.travel@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>?<BR><BR><BR><BR>?<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com <BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson@perandoe.org<BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed. <BR>Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR>Perandoe Special Education District<BR>1525 Locust <BR>Red Bud, IL 62278<BR>(618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR><BR><BR>This message and all attachments are confidential. Any review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the intended recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form) without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing in this message should be construed as a digital or electronic signature. Thank you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws. Improper or unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in civil and/or criminal penalties. ?<BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR> <BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/attachments/20100607/da9a183d/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:59:25 -0400<BR>From: "Sheila Amato" <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID: <1A311A7FBB2542A3A0A5852705E0E57D@SATELLITE><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would be to try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that could come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional time in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would like to see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media assessment done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use the Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to a team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in the way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for the child? <BR><BR>As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology... I had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in how to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and find my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more networks than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they were willing to support my need... so I could support my student's. <BR><BR>As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired TVI after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills (or lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and the parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard stories of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a situation through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't have any other pool to draw from. <BR><BR>Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40 teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate about 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but based on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8 or 9 a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure rate in my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that sparks more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass braille this past year out of 30 something who enrolled. <BR><BR>I'm really enjoying this dialogue... <BR><BR>Sheila<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM<BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Sheila<BR><BR> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind child who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR> 509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR><BR><BR> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net><BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR><BR><BR> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways... <BR><BR> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey the scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR> We can have poor social skills<BR> We can have poor mobility skills<BR><BR> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am trying to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR><BR> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and grin.<BR><BR> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators - or even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR> from birth to 21 - or older<BR> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a daily basis.<BR><BR> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level of proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best they can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational system as well as the parents and doctors. <BR><BR> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily news and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in our field highly outnumber the bad ones. <BR><BR> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain the proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge that meet national criteria.<BR><BR> Sheila<BR><BR><BR> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is we have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and poor instruction continues.<BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR> 509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org> wrote:<BR><BR><BR> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR><BR><BR> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again. It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time allows, rather than as an absolute necessity! <BR> Kirsten <BR><BR><BR> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR><BR> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids. <BR><BR> Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students exel and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills. <BR><BR> You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher with good skills." <BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR> 509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR><BR><BR> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------<BR><BR> From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR> To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like this comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post and my response: <BR><BR> Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics. <BR><BR> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR><BR> Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR><BR> (206)419-9555<BR><BR> cane.travel@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com <BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com <BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson@perandoe.org<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> -- <BR> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed. <BR> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR> Perandoe Special Education District<BR> 1525 Locust <BR> Red Bud, IL 62278<BR> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR><BR><BR> This message and all attachments are confidential. Any review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the intended recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form) without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing in this message should be construed as a digital or electronic signature. Thank you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws. Improper or unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in civil and/or criminal penalties. <BR><BR><BR> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com <BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR><BR><BR> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/attachments/20100607/220d06e9/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:40:24 +1000<BR>From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president@gmail.com><BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID:<BR><AANLkTim8JZnFfIiV1qoc8_5LdQnANG8BbzA-G6LjcjNp@mail.gmail.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>Hi all,<BR><BR>Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others<BR>have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when<BR>developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are<BR>competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching<BR>outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my<BR>life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that<BR>is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working<BR>with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes<BR>can motivate many of these departures from common sense.<BR><BR>However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid<BR>data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still<BR>nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate<BR>student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a<BR>discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I<BR>know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see<BR>any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results<BR>can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.<BR>There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational<BR>outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher<BR>competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers<BR>would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but<BR>still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille<BR>proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can<BR>easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how<BR>teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over<BR>many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either<BR>good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious<BR>reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for<BR>extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the<BR>effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if<BR>researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can<BR>acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already<BR>know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by<BR>proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those<BR>of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the<BR>data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we<BR>are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively<BR>win, and our students and future students are paying the price.<BR><BR>I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I<BR>haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would<BR>be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience<BR>working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been<BR>conducted? If not, how can we change that?<BR><BR>Arielle<BR><BR>On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would be to<BR>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that could<BR>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional time<BR>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would like to<BR>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media assessment<BR>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use the<BR>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be<BR>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to a<BR>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in the<BR>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for the<BR>> child?<BR>><BR>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best<BR>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology... I<BR>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in how<BR>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and find<BR>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more networks<BR>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they were<BR>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.<BR>><BR>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired TVI<BR>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills (or<BR>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and the<BR>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard stories<BR>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always<BR>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a situation<BR>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching<BR>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't have<BR>> any other pool to draw from.<BR>><BR>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40<BR>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate about<BR>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but based<BR>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8 or 9<BR>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure rate in<BR>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that sparks<BR>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass braille<BR>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.<BR>><BR>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...<BR>><BR>> Sheila<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM<BR>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>><BR>><BR>> Sheila<BR>><BR>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind child<BR>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his<BR>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR>><BR>><BR>> Denise<BR>><BR>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>> 509-969-3622<BR>><BR>><BR>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>> <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...<BR>><BR>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey the<BR>> scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all<BR>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>> We can have poor social skills<BR>> We can have poor mobility skills<BR>><BR>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am trying<BR>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with<BR>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR>><BR>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I<BR>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher<BR>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would<BR>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and grin.<BR>><BR>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators - or<BR>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>> from birth to 21 - or older<BR>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or<BR>> congenitally)<BR>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a daily<BR>> basis.<BR>><BR>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level of<BR>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best they<BR>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational system<BR>> as well as the parents and doctors.<BR>><BR>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily news<BR>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not<BR>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be excellent<BR>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without data<BR>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in our<BR>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.<BR>><BR>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the<BR>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain the<BR>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system of<BR>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who graduate<BR>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge that<BR>> meet national criteria.<BR>><BR>> Sheila<BR>><BR>><BR>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>><BR>><BR>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is we<BR>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the<BR>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and<BR>> poor instruction continues.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Denise<BR>><BR>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>> 509-969-3622<BR>><BR>><BR>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>> wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>> <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR>><BR>><BR>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing<BR>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again.<BR>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers<BR>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time<BR>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!<BR>> Kirsten<BR>><BR>><BR>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)<BR>> <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there<BR>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR>><BR>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is<BR>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely<BR>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material<BR>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.<BR>><BR>> Allison<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>><BR>><BR>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor<BR>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as<BR>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students exel<BR>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor<BR>> skills.<BR>><BR>> You cannot teach what you do not know and students<BR>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to<BR>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish<BR>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up<BR>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my<BR>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher with<BR>> good skills."<BR>><BR>><BR>> Denise<BR>><BR>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>> 509-969-3622<BR>><BR>><BR>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer<BR>> <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education<BR>> Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR>><BR>><BR>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank<BR>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ----------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>> From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org<BR>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR>> To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>><BR>><BR>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that<BR>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE<BR>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like this<BR>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here<BR>> is the post and my response:<BR>><BR>> Recently in response to a question posted by<BR>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research<BR>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for<BR>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam<BR>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy<BR>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus far<BR>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made that<BR>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not<BR>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of<BR>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area, for<BR>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state licensing<BR>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a parent<BR>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or<BR>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to<BR>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research<BR>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let<BR>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.<BR>><BR>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR>><BR>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR>><BR>> (206)419-9555<BR>><BR>> cane.travel@gmail.com<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get<BR>> your account info for Pibe-division:<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>><BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson@perandoe.org<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> --<BR>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.<BR>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR>> Perandoe Special Education District<BR>> 1525 Locust<BR>> Red Bud, IL 62278<BR>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR>><BR>><BR>> This message and all attachments are confidential. Any<BR>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the intended<BR>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message<BR>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this<BR>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at<BR>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form)<BR>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing in<BR>> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic signature. Thank<BR>> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance Portability<BR>> and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws. Improper or<BR>> unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in civil<BR>> and/or criminal penalties.<BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account<BR>> info for Pibe-division:<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info<BR>> for Pibe-division:<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info<BR>> for Pibe-division:<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for<BR>> Pibe-division:<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Arielle Silverman<BR>President, National Association of Blind Students<BR>Phone: 602-502-2255<BR>Email:<BR>nabs.president@gmail.com<BR>Website:<BR>www.nabslink.org<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 5<BR>Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:22:44 -0700<BR>From: "Allison Hilliker \(NFBA\)" <nfbarizona@gmail.com><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID: <8CFB2B0558E441D08258A48FABEC3E8E@IndigoPC><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<BR>reply-type=original<BR><BR><BR>All,<BR><BR>I think that Arielle has a good point in her message below. Since some<BR>educators are heavily focused on research and quantatative proof, , maybe<BR>that's what we should give them. I agree that research shouldn't be a<BR>replacement for common sense, but since common sense is clearly lacking,<BR>we may have to resort to research. ?And why not? It can't hurt to have<BR>some studies and stats to back us up when we advocate for our students. I<BR>know that some folks have an inate distrust of research, but if its<BR>conducted with an underlying positive philosophy and belief in high<BR>expectations, I think we will be happy with the results.<BR><BR>Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>---- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president@gmail.com><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:40 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR>> Hi all,<BR>><BR>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others<BR>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when<BR>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are<BR>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching<BR>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my<BR>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that<BR>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working<BR>> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes<BR>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.<BR>><BR>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid<BR>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still<BR>> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate<BR>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a<BR>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I<BR>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see<BR>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results<BR>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.<BR>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational<BR>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher<BR>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers<BR>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but<BR>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille<BR>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can<BR>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how<BR>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over<BR>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either<BR>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious<BR>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for<BR>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the<BR>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if<BR>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can<BR>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already<BR>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by<BR>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those<BR>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the<BR>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we<BR>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively<BR>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.<BR>><BR>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I<BR>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would<BR>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience<BR>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been<BR>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?<BR>><BR>> Arielle<BR>><BR>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would be<BR>>> to<BR>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that<BR>>> could<BR>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional<BR>>> time<BR>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would like<BR>>> to<BR>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media assessment<BR>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use the<BR>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be<BR>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to a<BR>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in<BR>>> the<BR>>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for the<BR>>> child?<BR>>><BR>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best<BR>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology... I<BR>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in<BR>>> how<BR>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and<BR>>> find<BR>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more<BR>>> networks<BR>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they were<BR>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.<BR>>><BR>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired<BR>>> TVI<BR>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills (or<BR>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and the<BR>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard<BR>>> stories<BR>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always<BR>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a situation<BR>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching<BR>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't<BR>>> have<BR>>> any other pool to draw from.<BR>>><BR>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40<BR>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate<BR>>> about<BR>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but<BR>>> based<BR>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8 or<BR>>> 9<BR>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure rate<BR>>> in<BR>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that<BR>>> sparks<BR>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass<BR>>> braille<BR>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.<BR>>><BR>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...<BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind<BR>>> child<BR>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his<BR>>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Denise<BR>>><BR>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>> 509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>>> <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...<BR>>><BR>>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey<BR>>> the<BR>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all<BR>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>>> We can have poor social skills<BR>>> We can have poor mobility skills<BR>>><BR>>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am<BR>>> trying<BR>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with<BR>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR>>><BR>>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I<BR>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher<BR>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would<BR>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and<BR>>> grin.<BR>>><BR>>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators -<BR>>> or<BR>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>>> from birth to 21 - or older<BR>>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or<BR>>> congenitally)<BR>>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR>>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a<BR>>> daily<BR>>> basis.<BR>>><BR>>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level<BR>>> of<BR>>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best<BR>>> they<BR>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational<BR>>> system<BR>>> as well as the parents and doctors.<BR>>><BR>>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily<BR>>> news<BR>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not<BR>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be<BR>>> excellent<BR>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without<BR>>> data<BR>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in<BR>>> our<BR>>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.<BR>>><BR>>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the<BR>>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain<BR>>> the<BR>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system<BR>>> of<BR>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who<BR>>> graduate<BR>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge<BR>>> that<BR>>> meet national criteria.<BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is<BR>>> we<BR>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the<BR>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction<BR>>> and<BR>>> poor instruction continues.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Denise<BR>>><BR>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>> 509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson<BR>>> <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>>> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>>> <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for<BR>>> standing<BR>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over<BR>>> again.<BR>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers<BR>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time<BR>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!<BR>>> Kirsten<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)<BR>>> <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there<BR>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR>>><BR>>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is<BR>>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely<BR>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the<BR>>> material<BR>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.<BR>>><BR>>> Allison<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division<BR>>> List<BR>>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to<BR>>> poor<BR>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as<BR>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students<BR>>> exel<BR>>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with<BR>>> poor<BR>>> skills.<BR>>><BR>>> You cannot teach what you do not know and<BR>>> students<BR>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research<BR>>> to<BR>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a<BR>>> foolish<BR>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand<BR>>> up<BR>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test<BR>>> my<BR>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher<BR>>> with<BR>>> good skills."<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Denise<BR>>><BR>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>> 509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer<BR>>> <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education<BR>>> Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>>> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on.<BR>>> Thank<BR>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org<BR>>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR>>> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR>>> To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that<BR>>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE<BR>>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like this<BR>>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.<BR>>> Here<BR>>> is the post and my response:<BR>>><BR>>> Recently in response to a question posted by<BR>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published<BR>>> research<BR>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible<BR>>> for<BR>>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam<BR>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy<BR>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus<BR>>> far<BR>>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made<BR>>> that<BR>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not<BR>>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of<BR>>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area,<BR>>> for<BR>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state<BR>>> licensing<BR>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a<BR>>> parent<BR>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or<BR>>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative<BR>>> to<BR>>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate<BR>>> research<BR>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But<BR>>> let<BR>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.<BR>>><BR>>> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR>>><BR>>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR>>><BR>>> (206)419-9555<BR>>><BR>>> cane.travel@gmail.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or<BR>>> get<BR>>> your account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson@perandoe.org<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --<BR>>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.<BR>>> Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR>>> Perandoe Special Education District<BR>>> 1525 Locust<BR>>> Red Bud, IL 62278<BR>>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> This message and all attachments are confidential. Any<BR>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the<BR>>> intended<BR>>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message<BR>>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to<BR>>> this<BR>>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at<BR>>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form)<BR>>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing in<BR>>> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic signature.<BR>>> Thank<BR>>> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance<BR>>> Portability<BR>>> and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws. Improper<BR>>> or<BR>>> unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in civil<BR>>> and/or criminal penalties.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account<BR>>> info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info<BR>>> for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info<BR>>> for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for<BR>>> Pibe-division:<BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>>><BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> Arielle Silverman<BR>> President, National Association of Blind Students<BR>> Phone: 602-502-2255<BR>> Email:<BR>> nabs.president@gmail.com<BR>> Website:<BR>> www.nabslink.org<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for<BR>> Pibe-division:<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 6<BR>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 00:39:05 -0600<BR>From: "Melissa Green" <graduate56@juno.com><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID: <9E1070BE89D444A29626E11D801DB4BA@melissa><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>I agree with you alison.<BR>This is why I would like to teach blind kids.<BR>But I feel as if I am not given a chance to do this. Furthermore, I don't believe that TBVI's who are not blind believe that blind or visually impaired teachers can't teach students who are like themselves.<BR>Glad that we have dinese and others that are proving this misconception as being incorrect.<BR>Melissa Green<BR>Giving up doesn't always mean you are weak; sometimes it means that you are strong enough to let go. <BR><BR>Blog: <A href="http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com">http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com</A><BR>Facebook: melissa green northern colorado<BR>twitter: melissa5674<BR>msn: graduate1531@msn.com<BR>Skype: lissa5674<BR>live journal<BR>topaz5674<BR>Linked in<BR><A href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674">http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674</A><BR><BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR> From: Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <BR> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 6:43 PM<BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR><BR> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids. <BR><BR> Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson <BR> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List <BR> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students exel and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills. <BR><BR> You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher with good skills." <BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR> 509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR> Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR><BR><BR> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR> From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR> To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like this comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post and my response: <BR><BR> Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics. <BR><BR> Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR><BR> Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR><BR> (206)419-9555<BR><BR> cane.travel@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Pibe-division mailing list<BR> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/graduate56@juno.com<BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>Penny Stock Jumping 2000%<BR>Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!<BR><A href="http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c0de6459dce7263428st04vuc">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c0de6459dce7263428st04vuc</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/attachments/20100608/465183dc/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 7<BR>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 07:48:53 -0500<BR>From: "Hyde, David W. (ESC)" <david.hyde@wcbvi.k12.wi.us><BR>To: "'jobs@nfbnet.org'" <jobs@nfbnet.org>,<BR>"'pibe-division@nfbnet.org'"<pibe-division@nfbnet.org>,<BR>"'nobe-l@nfbnet.org'" <nobe-l@nfbnet.org>, 'National Federation of<BR>the Blind of Wisconsin News List'<nfbwnews@nfbwis.org>, "wisconsin A.<BR>C. Bl list (wisconsin@acb.org)"<wisconsin@acb.org><BR>Subject: [Pibe-division] FW: TVI position open in Madison,updated<BR>application information<BR>Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC12336DB573AADD@tiger><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Beverly Helland [mailto:bhelland@madison.k12.wi.us] <BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 3:22 PM<BR>To: Teachers of the visually impaired; Hyde, David W. (ESC)<BR>Subject: TVI position open in Madison, updated application information<BR><BR>Teacher of Visually Impaired<BR><BR>Full time .5Regular Contract/,5Temporary Contract<BR><BR>Madison Metropolitan School District<BR><BR>Madison, Wisconsin<BR><BR><BR><BR>-Pre-Braille & Braille Instruction (Literary & Nemeth)<BR><BR>-Functional Vision Assessments<BR><BR>-Learning Media Assessments<BR><BR>-Assistive Technology <BR><BR>-Low Vision Strategies<BR><BR>-Write & implement IEPs<BR><BR>-Consultation with teams<BR><BR>-Travel between schools<BR><BR>Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction License 825, Visually Impaired<BR><BR><BR><BR>To apply, go to:<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login?COMPANY_ID=00005393">https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login?COMPANY_ID=00005393</A> <<A href="https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login?COMPANY_ID=00005393">https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login?COMPANY_ID=00005393</A>> <BR><BR><BR><BR>Under View Available Jobs <BR><BR>Click Here to View Open Certified Positions<BR><BR>At the bottom of the list<BR><BR>VI Teacher .5Regular Contract/,5Temporary Contract<BR><BR>External applicants - click here to login and apply <<A href="https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login.shtml?COMPANY_ID=00005393">https://empapp.madison.k12.wi.us/ats/app_login.shtml?COMPANY_ID=00005393</A>> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bev Helland<BR>Vision Program Support Teacher<BR>Madison Metropolitan School District<BR>545 West Dayton Street<BR>Madison, WI 53703<BR><BR>Office: 608-663-8463<BR>Cell: 608-516-6784<BR>Fax: 608-204-0349<BR>Email: bhelland@madison.k12.wi.us<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 8<BR>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 08:56:59 -0700<BR>From: Mary Willows <mwillows@csb-cde.ca.gov><BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] [spam] Re: Comment<BR>Message-ID:<BR><8CEA95E15BA4B749A94ED1A3F6672AE302C4FDE6@DCNMSG02.sssd.ca.gov><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>Dear Sheila,<BR>I would just like to take this opportunity to wish you a happy and<BR>healthy retirement. I know this is a bit off topic. You and Denise<BR>have really stirred it up now.<BR>I am aware of how terribly dedicated you have been to your students for<BR>the past 38 years and I want to make sure that you know that although we<BR>all come into this profession from different directions the bottom line<BR>is that we do the best we can. You saw the need and you answered the<BR>call. <BR><BR>Congratulations on your retirement.<BR><BR>Sincerely,<BR>Mary Willows, TVI <BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org<BR>[mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dr. Denise M.<BR>Robinson<BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 5:04 PM<BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>Subject: [spam] Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR>Sheila<BR><BR>I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind child who<BR>was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his<BR>potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR>--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR><BR><BR>Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways... <BR><BR>We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey<BR>the scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all<BR>know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>We can have poor social skills<BR>We can have poor mobility skills<BR><BR>Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am<BR>trying to convey is that just as each of our students is an<BR>individual... with unique talents and areas in need of further<BR>development, so are teachers.<BR><BR>I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I<BR>will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher<BR>(introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she<BR>would panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in<BR>and grin.<BR><BR>This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators<BR>- or even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>from birth to 21 - or older<BR>those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or<BR>congenitally)<BR>those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR>in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a<BR>daily basis.<BR><BR>I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high<BR>level of proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing<BR>the best they can with limited resources and lack of support from the<BR>educational system as well as the parents and doctors. <BR><BR>We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily<BR>news and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field<BR>for not sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to<BR>be excellent - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements.<BR>Even without data (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet<BR>the good apples in our field highly outnumber the bad ones. <BR><BR>The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the<BR>teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain<BR>the proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a<BR>system of education that is broken, and how can we assure that students<BR>who graduate from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills<BR>and knowledge that meet national criteria.<BR><BR>Sheila<BR><BR>From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com</A>> <BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org><BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR>The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is we have the<BR>teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the incorrect<BR>information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction and poor<BR>instruction continues.<BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR>--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org> wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR><BR><BR>I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for standing up<BR>and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over again.<BR>It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers<BR>included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time<BR>allows, rather than as an absolute necessity! <BR>Kirsten <BR><BR><BR>On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)<BR><nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nfbarizona@gmail.com">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nfbarizona@gmail.com</A>> ><BR>wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there<BR>like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR><BR>It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is<BR>applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely<BR>accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the<BR>material they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for<BR>blind kids. <BR><BR>Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com</A>> <BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education<BR>Division List<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org><BR><BR>Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR>Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to poor student outcomes. I<BR>have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as anyone else has in<BR>the field who has good skills and see their students exel and others who<BR>do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with poor skills. <BR><BR>You cannot teach what you do not know and students cannot learn what you<BR>cannot teach them. You do not need formal research to know this, though<BR>it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a foolish notion to rest.<BR>But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand up and say<BR>"yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test my<BR>students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher<BR>with good skills." <BR><BR><BR> Denise <BR><BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR><BR>--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com</A>> ><BR>wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com</A>> ><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education Division List'"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org><BR>><BR>Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR><BR><BR><BR>Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on. Thank you for not<BR>being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR><BR>From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe</A>-division-bounces@nfbn<BR>et.org> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe</A>-division-bounces@nfbn<BR>et.org> ] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR>Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR>To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org> <BR>Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR><BR>Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that bothered me. I have<BR>responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE list. Every time I<BR>think that we are making progress something like this comment is used to<BR>justify not providing for the needs of blind kids. Here is the post and<BR>my response: <BR><BR>Recently in response to a question posted by Sheila one of the<BR>posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published research proving or<BR>disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible for poor<BR>braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam<BR>ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy<BR>groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus<BR>far no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being<BR>made that teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to<BR>students is not relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot<BR>take the place of common sense or best practice. I cannot think of<BR>another subject area, for example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art,<BR>where a decent state licensing entity will not expect an instructor to<BR>demonstrate competence. As a parent I would be very concerned if my<BR>child's English teacher could not read or write English. Let us not<BR>throw out critical thinking as an alternative to non-existent DATA<BR>Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate research and<BR>legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But let<BR>us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics. <BR><BR>Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR><BR>Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR><BR>(206)419-9555<BR><BR>cane.travel@gmail.com<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cane.travel@gmail.com">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cane.travel@gmail.com</A>> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org> <BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account<BR>info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenba<BR>cher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org> <BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get<BR>your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizon<BR>a@gmail.com <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org> <BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>account info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson<BR>@perandoe.org<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed. <BR>Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR>Perandoe Special Education District<BR>1525 Locust <BR>Red Bud, IL 62278<BR>(618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR><BR><BR>This message and all attachments are confidential. Any review,<BR>use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the intended<BR>recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this<BR>message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by<BR>replying to this transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education<BR>District at 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in<BR>any form) without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail,<BR>nothing in this message should be construed as a digital or electronic<BR>signature. Thank you. This information may be protected by the Health<BR>Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other<BR>Federal laws. Improper or unauthorized use or disclosure of this<BR>information could result in civil and/or criminal penalties. <BR><BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org> <BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account<BR>info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenba<BR>cher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account<BR>info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%<BR>40verizon.net<BR><BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe">http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe</A>-division@nfbnet.org> <BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account<BR>info for Pibe-division:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenba<BR>cher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>DCN/CSB/DCC Users: All E-mail is scanned for SPAM and Viruses.<BR>If you have not received an E-mail that you are expecting please contact<BR>your local Network Administrator. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 9<BR>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 09:24:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>From: "Dr. Denise M. Robinson" <dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com><BR>To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>Message-ID: <458610.99457.qm@web52401.mail.re2.yahoo.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Arielle,<BR>I so agree. Maybe you and I can work with a university to do this research. I have thought about it a long time, but the overwhelming responsiblity of my job ---- 80+ work hours a week, has prevented me from doing so. I am changing jobs next year so hope to further research in the field on subjects such as this.<BR><BR><BR>?????? Denise <BR>?<BR>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622<BR><BR>--- On Tue, 6/8/10, Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 6:22 AM<BR><BR><BR><BR>All,<BR><BR>I think that Arielle has a good point in her message below.? Since some<BR>educators are heavily focused on research and quantatative proof, , maybe<BR>that's what we should give them.? I agree that research shouldn't be a<BR>replacement for common sense, but since common sense is clearly lacking,<BR>we may have to resort to research.? ?And why not?? It can't? hurt to have<BR>some studies and stats to back us up when we advocate for our students.? I<BR>know that some folks have an inate distrust of research, but if its<BR>conducted with an underlying positive philosophy and belief in high<BR>expectations, I think we will be happy with the results.<BR><BR>Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>---- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president@gmail.com><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:40 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR>> Hi all,<BR>><BR>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others<BR>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when<BR>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are<BR>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching<BR>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my<BR>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that<BR>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working<BR>> with blind people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes<BR>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.<BR>><BR>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid<BR>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still<BR>> nonexistent, and are? allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate<BR>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a<BR>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I<BR>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see<BR>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results<BR>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.<BR>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational<BR>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher<BR>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better teachers<BR>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but<BR>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille<BR>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can<BR>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how<BR>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over<BR>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either<BR>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious<BR>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for<BR>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the<BR>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if<BR>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can<BR>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already<BR>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of data is being used by<BR>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those<BR>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the<BR>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we<BR>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively<BR>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.<BR>><BR>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I<BR>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would<BR>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience<BR>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been<BR>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?<BR>><BR>> Arielle<BR>><BR>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would be<BR>>> to<BR>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that<BR>>> could<BR>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional<BR>>> time<BR>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would like<BR>>> to<BR>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media assessment<BR>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use the<BR>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be<BR>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to a<BR>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in<BR>>> the<BR>>> way of materials and in instruction. Now, who can provide this for the<BR>>> child?<BR>>><BR>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best<BR>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology... I<BR>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in<BR>>> how<BR>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and<BR>>> find<BR>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more<BR>>> networks<BR>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they were<BR>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.<BR>>><BR>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired<BR>>> TVI<BR>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills (or<BR>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the administration and the<BR>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard<BR>>> stories<BR>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always<BR>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a situation<BR>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching<BR>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't<BR>>> have<BR>>> any other pool to draw from.<BR>>><BR>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40<BR>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate<BR>>> about<BR>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but<BR>>> based<BR>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8 or<BR>>> 9<BR>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run approximately a 50% failure rate<BR>>> in<BR>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that<BR>>> sparks<BR>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass<BR>>> braille<BR>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.<BR>>><BR>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...<BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ???Sheila<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ???I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind<BR>>> child<BR>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his<BR>>> potential due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? Denise<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ???Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>>? ? ???Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>>? ? ???Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>>? ? ???509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ???--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???From: Sheila Amato <brltrans@verizon.net><BR>>>? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>>? ? ? ???To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>>> <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>>>? ? ? ???Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey<BR>>> the<BR>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>>>? ? ? ???We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>>>? ? ? ???We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we all<BR>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>>>? ? ? ???We can have poor social skills<BR>>>? ? ? ???We can have poor mobility skills<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am<BR>>> trying<BR>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with<BR>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I<BR>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher<BR>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would<BR>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and<BR>>> grin.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators -<BR>>> or<BR>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>>>? ? ? ???from birth to 21 - or older<BR>>>? ? ? ???those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>>>? ? ? ???those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or<BR>>> congenitally)<BR>>>? ? ? ???those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR>>>? ? ? ???in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a<BR>>> daily<BR>>> basis.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level<BR>>> of<BR>>> proficiency. I do know many who are in there every day doing the best<BR>>> they<BR>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational<BR>>> system<BR>>> as well as the parents and doctors.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily<BR>>> news<BR>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not<BR>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be<BR>>> excellent<BR>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without<BR>>> data<BR>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in<BR>>> our<BR>>> field? highly outnumber the bad ones.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the<BR>>> teachers with less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain<BR>>> the<BR>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system<BR>>> of<BR>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who<BR>>> graduate<BR>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge<BR>>> that<BR>>> meet national criteria.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???Sheila<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>>? ? ? ???Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>>>? ? ? ???To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>>>? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???The REALLY bad thing about the content of these comments is<BR>>> we<BR>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the<BR>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction<BR>>> and<BR>>> poor instruction continues.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Denise<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ???--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten Peterson<BR>>> <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>>> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: Kirsten Peterson <kpeterson@perandoe.org><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>>> <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for<BR>>> standing<BR>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over<BR>>> again.<BR>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers<BR>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time<BR>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Kirsten<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)<BR>>> <nfbarizona@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Well said, Denise!? I'm glad we have teachers out there<BR>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is<BR>>> applied when many people teach blind kids.? Concepts that are widely<BR>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the<BR>>> material<BR>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Allison<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???----- Original Message -----<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division<BR>>> List<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to<BR>>> poor<BR>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as<BR>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students<BR>>> exel<BR>>> and others who do not because of the teacher who is teaching them with<BR>>> poor<BR>>> skills.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???You cannot teach what you do not know and<BR>>> students<BR>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research<BR>>> to<BR>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a<BR>>> foolish<BR>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand<BR>>> up<BR>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test<BR>>> my<BR>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher<BR>>> with<BR>>> good skills."<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Denise<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer<BR>>> <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer@gmail.com><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education<BR>>> Division List'" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on.<BR>>> Thank<BR>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???From: pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org<BR>>> [mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To: pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that<BR>>> bothered me.? I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE<BR>>> list.? Every time I think that we are making progress something like this<BR>>> comment is used to justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.<BR>>> Here<BR>>> is the post and my response:<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Recently in response to a question posted by<BR>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1.? still no published<BR>>> research<BR>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible<BR>>> for<BR>>> poor braille outcomes for students.? Nevertheless,? we've gone full steam<BR>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist.? Assertions by advocacy<BR>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches.? We need DATA.? And thus<BR>>> far<BR>>> no data exists."? I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made<BR>>> that<BR>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to students is not<BR>>> relevant to student outcomes.? Lack of Data? cannot???take the place of<BR>>> common sense or best practice.? I cannot think of another subject area,<BR>>> for<BR>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state<BR>>> licensing<BR>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence.? As a<BR>>> parent<BR>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or<BR>>> write English.? Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative<BR>>> to<BR>>> non-existent DATA Collection.? I do not want to say that legitimate<BR>>> research<BR>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices.? But<BR>>> let<BR>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(206)419-9555<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???cane.travel@gmail.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or<BR>>> get<BR>>> your account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???_______________________________________________<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???_______________________________________________<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson@perandoe.org<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???--<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Perandoe Special Education District<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???1525 Locust<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Red Bud, IL 62278<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???This message and all attachments are confidential. Any<BR>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the<BR>>> intended<BR>>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message<BR>>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to<BR>>> this<BR>>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special Education District at<BR>>> 618-282-6251 and delete this message and any copy of it (in any form)<BR>>> without disclosing it. Unless expressly stated in this e-mail, nothing in<BR>>> this message should be construed as a digital or electronic signature.<BR>>> Thank<BR>>> you. This information may be protected by the Health Insurance<BR>>> Portability<BR>>> and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA), and other Federal laws. Improper<BR>>> or<BR>>> unauthorized use or disclosure of this information could result in civil<BR>>> and/or criminal penalties.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???_______________________________________________<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account<BR>>> info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???_______________________________________________<BR>>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ???http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info<BR>>> for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>? ? ? ???_______________________________________________<BR>>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>>? ? ? ???Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ???http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>>? ? ? ???To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info<BR>>> for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for<BR>>> Pibe-division:<BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans@verizon.net<BR>>><BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> Arielle Silverman<BR>> President, National Association of Blind Students<BR>> Phone:? 602-502-2255<BR>> Email:<BR>> nabs.president@gmail.com<BR>> Website:<BR>> www.nabslink.org<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for<BR>> Pibe-division:<BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona@gmail.com<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Pibe-division:<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/dmehlenbacher@yahoo.com<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org/attachments/20100608/cc0d4e15/attachment.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Pibe-division mailing list<BR>Pibe-division@nfbnet.org<BR><A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe</A>-division_nfbnet.org<BR><BR><BR>End of Pibe-division Digest, Vol 25, Issue 4<BR>********************************************<BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>