[Quietcars] Let us reason together revisited

Thu Oct 30 23:49:02 UTC 2008

Hi back,

I look forward to the discussion and to learning.  As I recall you live in
Alabama? 

Michael Hingson,
 NSA   
President,
The Michael Hingson Group
84 Bahama Reef
Novato, CA 94949
Phone Direct number (415) 827-4084
Fax number (415) 883-6220
Mobile/Pager (888) 965-9191
Email 
info at michaelhingson.com
 <
mailto:
info at michaelhingson.com>
For information on Michael's speaking topics, his availability, and his
consulting services on Diversity and Access Technology for blind persons
please
visit <
http://www.michaelhingson.com>
For information on Guide Dogs for the Blind please visit <
http://www.guidedogs.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Robert Wilson
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:05 PM
To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Let us reason together revisited

Hi,

I fully understand and will send a more detailed  note later. This is not
something that has to be understood the first time but rather let's see how
far we can go. We have until December until we reach a go or no-go decision.
So let's do it right and life will be good.

Bob Wilson

> From: info at michaelhingson.com
> To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:41:52 -0700
> Subject: [Quietcars]  Let us reason together revisited
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Thanks for your email.  I didn't see your response to Corbb until 
> after I sent my reply.  It goes back to how many information streams 
> we can process at a time.  (grin)
> 
> Having read your description for a wireless system I understand how 
> your proposal differs from those of the past.  However, I wonder if 
> your idea is really the way to go.
> 
> If I and others are in a city using your system how often will cars be 
> running without their horns sounding warnings?  In other words, it 
> seems likely to me that if blind persons and others who need warnings 
> all have your system cars will not be silent but rather they will be 
> giving constant warnings.
> 
> Also, there is the matter of what sounds the horns give off.  It is 
> the contention of many of us that the sounds we desire to hear are in 
> fact car sounds -- sounds that change with velocity and acceleration , 
> and sounds that sound different for different vehicles.  I like 
> knowing when a truck is around as opposed to a standard passenger car.
> 
> The SAE committee is wrestling with the concept of what sounds are 
> best at this moment.  The committee members are coming to grips with 
> the fact that the problem is not simple and that the effected audience 
> is more diverse than at first imagined.
> 
> My real question still is why have a warning system instead of simply 
> having automobiles emit sounds.  Drivers say they like quiet cars, but 
> even the SAE committee members have pointed out during meetings that 
> what drivers get is the quiet inside their vehicles.  They are not the
effected pedestrians.
> What is the problem with simply mandating that vehicles produce the 
> sounds pedestrians need?  Why not put the noise emitters on the 
> vehicles and have them continue to duplicate, all be it more quietly 
> perhaps, the automotive sounds we use to navigate safely?
> 
> I could also bring up the failure rate of fobs.  If one dies how would 
> I know it?  If a car stops making sounds even the driver would know it 
> and could initiate repairs.  If a transmitter breaks down I may not be 
> aware of it and thus be put in danger if the car coming towards me did 
> not receive the signal to produce a warning.  This is a circumstance 
> which may not happen as often given the lack of moving parts, but it 
> still has to be an issue.  Cars can have redundant systems, a small
transmitter will not.
> 
> Finally, on the language front the words may be effusive to you.  
> However, many of us already are terrified, or at least deeply 
> concerned, over the trend toward silent cars we see emerging.  If the 
> language you see is provocative please consider that it represents the 
> emotions and reflects the strong concerns we have.  All too often 
> decisions have been made concerning blind people without consultation 
> with us or without apparent consideration of the negative consequences 
> such decisions have on our lives.  For several years automotive 
> manufacturing "experts" have been opposed to making silent cars less 
> silent because they feel that there is no evidence of the need for any 
> noise.  It has not been apparent that they have any expertise about how
blind people travel much less how other pedestrians and cyclists use sound.
> 
> To sum up I still haven't seen a convincing argument that there is a 
> better solution than motor vehicles emitting sound.  I am open to 
> ideas.  I think you offer a suggestion, but I still am not convinced 
> it is as good or better than sound constantly being emitted by cars 
> without the addition of a hand-held device.
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson,
>  NSA   
> President,
> The Michael Hingson Group
> 84 Bahama Reef
> Novato, CA 94949
> Phone Direct number (415) 827-4084
> Fax number (415) 883-6220
> Mobile/Pager (888) 965-9191
> Email
> info at michaelhingson.com
>  <
> mailto:
> info at michaelhingson.com>
> For information on Michael's speaking topics, his availability, and 
> his consulting services on Diversity and Access Technology for blind 
> persons please visit < http://www.michaelhingson.com> For information 
> on Guide Dogs for the Blind please visit < http://www.guidedogs.com>
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:35 AM
> To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Let us reason together
> 
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding:
> 
> > . . . Have you tried, for example, standing on a busy street corner 
> > wearing sleep shades and wearing good ear plugs ...
> 
> "Good ear plugs?" I don't think you've understood the proposed design.
> Remember my comment about abusive language.
> 
> >  . . . If not, you might consider spending some time at one of the 
> > NFB centers to learn how to travel as a blind person. . . .
> 
> This is a fair request and should be part of any collaborative effort 
> if there is going to be one. But passage of the "Cameron Gulbransen 
> Kids and Cars Safety Act of 2007" has a finite window. We can 
> collaborate or repeat the history of 2008 next year.
> 
> Bob Wilson
> 
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