[Quietcars] Passenger defeatable systems.

Mon May 31 05:57:44 UTC 2010

Bob,
I've been skimming messages for the past several days, so I apologize if I'm
asking for clarification of something that was stated abundantly clearly. I
gather that you don't want sound to be added to quiet cars whenever the key
is turned on. You seem to prefer noise generated in response to events such
as back up lights, emergency flashers, and turn signals. You've posted some
wonderful information about cars getting "smarter" at avoiding collisions. I
hope the industry continues to create even better collision avoidance
systems. You are obviously committed to pedestrian safety and to the
development of more and more sophisticated and effective safety devices in
automobiles.
I don't understand why you object to cars being audible at all times when
they're moving. I recognize that making cars audible won't prevent all
accidents; traffic patterns and the sheer number of automobiles on the road
make being a pedestrian more dicey than any of us, whether blind or sighted,
like. But what is the harm from your point of view in making operating cars
audible at all times?
I don't regard that requirement as expressing mistrust of drivers. I regard
it as allowing blind and other pedestrians to shoulder their fair share of
the responsibility. If both the driver and the pedestrian are capable of
behaving prudently, the chance for an uneventful trip rises. If only one
party, in this case the driver, has the tools necessary to act responsibly,
only one person, again the driver, needs to make an error for an accident to
occur. Aren't two prudent people more likely to achieve a good result than
one?
Let me explain my perspective through a fanciful example. Suppose new
technology evolved that would allow cars to be invisible (obviously
impossible, but I said I was being fanciful.) . What a boon for the visual
landscape! Instead of looking at all those vehicles, everyone would have the
joy of an uncluttered panorama. Since this new invisibility system would
also save energy and cause less pollution, everybody should be happy. Right?
Obviously not. How would pedestrians know when it was safe to cross a
street? Yes, at traffic lights, pedestrians would be able to step out with
some confidence with the assumption that drivers would obey the signal. But
what about cars backing out of driveways? What about intersections with no
signal lights? What about parking lots?
Now suppose cars could be made to appear when they used their turn signals,
back up lights, or flashers. How would that help you if you were walking
across a quiet street and a driver wasn't doing anything with turn signals,
flashers, or back up lights. Would you want to know that car was there, or
would you be completely happy not to know for certain whether or not an
invisible car was present? How would you feel about having cars randomly
appear while turn signals etc were on and then disappear without any clear
notion as to where they went. Did they have their signals on to change lanes
or did they turn a corner? Would you feel your safety was somewhat
precarious? Wouldn't you rather have more information?
I may have completely misunderstood your point. If so, I'm certainly sorry
that I have wasted everyone's time asking for clarification no one else
needed.
If I'm right and you don't want the sound to be emitted whenever the key is
turned, could you explain your reasoning. I'm sure your objections are tied
to belief that safety would be better served by a different approach, but
I'm obviously fuzzy on the details, particularly since I would not know
where to find the distributor cap or the fan belt of an engine. Shocking
state of ignorance, I know.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position for me. I genuinely
appreciate it.

Mary Ellen

-----Original Message-----
From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Robert Wilson
Sent: May 30, 2010 6:15 PM
To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Passenger defeatable systems.

The House Energy and Commerce Committee adopted the Sterns Amendment for
H.R. 5381:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/documents/20100526/HR5381.Amendment.Stearns.
pdf

What is interesting is Section 109 (f):

"8 (f) STUDY AND REPORT.-Not later than 4 years
9 after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall 10 complete a
study and report to Congress as to whether 11 there exists a safety need to
apply the motor vehicle safety 12 standard required by subsection (a) to
conventional motor 13 vehicles. In the event that the Secretary determines
there 14 exists a safety need, the Secretary shall initiate rule- 15 making
under section 30111 of title 49, United States 16 Code to extend the
standard to conventional motor vehicles."

What is interesting is only one media outlet, the Washington Post made
reference to the House Committee meeting adopting this legislative language.
That is how I managed to get a copy of the markup session record.

Then we have the interesting problem of NHTSA report DOT HW 811 204,
September 2009, pp. 13, which in table 6a, pp. 13 claims, "making a turn, 19
(1.8%), and backing 7 (5.3%)" and then attempt to claim these two number
mean hybrids are twice as dangerous as non-hybrids. I have met Hanna Refaat,
the author, and I am genuinely sorry he sacrificed his reputation for this
report. The blood will be on his hands and conscience . . . if he has one.

I just started reading DOT HS 811 304, April 2010, "Quieter Cars and the
Safety Of Blind Pedestrians: Phase I". Sad to say, it is obvious this report
has problems with facts and data. But the last paragraph, pp. 4 in the
Executive Summary pretty well lays out the problem . . . the absence of a
fact based, NHTSA team supporting this effort.

David Evans, I would like to share these words from Machiavelli:

"When you disarm the people, 
you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either 
through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions 
generate hatred..."
By insisting upon 'disarming' the operator from generating the noise, even
if tied to the turn signals, emergency flashers, and backup lights, this
legislation confirms your opinion that,

". . . you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and
both of these opinions generate hatred ..."

I'm sorry but this legislation is flawed and as long as folks assent by
their silence to this flawed legislation, the results as predictable as the
dawn. The right answer is to contact one's Congressional representatives
about the flaws of H.R. 5381 and S. 3302. If your Congress Critters are
selectively deaf, contact your local news source.

The irony is I have no problem with adding external audio alarms to turn
signals, emergency flashers, and backup lights. This is something all
vehicles need, not only hybrids but ordinary cars. It could really make a
difference . . . especially if it is a unique signal designed to alert
pedestrians. But that is now how the Sterns Amendment is written . . . as
stealthy as it is.

Bob Wilson

> Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:37:45 -0400
> From: mrtownsend at optonline.net
> To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Passenger defeatable systems.
> 
> I would think that a bipartisan effort could continue, devoid of all 
> of the bickering that has placed much of the decent legislative 
> efforts in jeopardy during the first 18 months of this administration.  
> Laughingly, people were more reasonable under bush, which is scary.
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Kent Stein
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:47 PM
> To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Passenger defeatable systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> Those of us who've been working on the "quiet car legislation" for the 
> past several years are concerned with precisely the issues you raise.  
> The fact that the two major manufacturing consortiums have signed on - 
> the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and the Alliance of 
> International Automobile Manufacturers - reflects the fact that people 
> in the industry share our goal of establishing a universal standard.  
> The level of co-operation we have obtained thus far has been very 
> encouraging.  This even holds true in Congress - the Pedestrian Safety 
> Enhancement Act (HR734 and its Senate counterpart, S841), as a 
> stand-alone bill, was one of the most bipartisan bills making its way 
> through the legislature.  May this support continue in the critical 
> weeks and months to come!
> 
> Debbie
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "michael townsend" <mrtownsend at optonline.net>
> To: <quietcars at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:31 AM
> Subject: [Quietcars] Passenger defeatable systems.
> 
> 
> > David, as a car nut, and I'll leave my love of cars at that, I've 
> > never driven, though I know the mechanics of it.  I've never owned a 
> > car, though I've worked on friends' cars as a hobby and as a very 
> > high interest.
> >
> > As a person who understands such things as defeatable systems, i.e., 
> > the flawed attempts of the auto industry who made seatbelts able to 
> > be gotten around by consumers in the 1970s, I know about which you 
> > speak to this point of "defeatable" systems.
> >
> > I remember that weight on a seat triggered a buzzer, and a rather 
> > annoying one at that, in most American cars, which, if one looked 
> > for a wire harness underneath the seat, one could "defeat that 
> > system" in seconds.  A simple coupler was used and if you pinched a 
> > fastener and pulled it out of a female
> > holder,  you had no more seatbelt warning system.
> >
> > Some more expensive models coupled the seatbelt activation systems 
> > to the ignition, and they could be gotten around as well, though 
> > with a bit more difficulty.
> >
> > I think that any warning system should be audible, activated with 
> > nondefeatable sensors at the four corners of the car, and there 
> > should be a pleasant, yet discernable tone that would not be 
> > mistaken for anything else,
> > and that this same warning system and tone should be mandated across the
> > board.
> >
> > I'm saying that BMW, Mercedes and GM, as well as the Japanese 
> > counterparts should use the same system, so that one wouldn't have 
> > to confuse a warning sound with another street sound, or have to 
> > define a Toyota from a Volvo from a Chevy.
> >
> > So far, I don't think that this has been proposed, and correct me if 
> > I'm wrong on this.  And, this may be the downfall of the proposed 
> > legislative effort.  This is a really great cause, but things like 
> > this have a way of blocking things from passage.
> >
> > You see, we can't get senators and congress to agree on spending 
> > bills,
> > Wall
> > Street reform or even proposed standards as they relate to service or 
> > guide
> > animals.
> >
> > I applaud the efforts of each blindness org and automotive group 
> > who's fought for such legislation, but the hard part is just getting  
> > started.
> >
> > And, congress and the senate have to remove themselves and their 
> > selfish, political needs and wants from the needs ad wants of the 
> > average Joe or Jill; something which I am afraid that neither party 
> > has been willing to so accomplish, regardless of whose 
> > administration has been in office!
> >
> > Mike
> > T
> >
> >
> > "I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself...but 
> > I
> > think
> > I have
> > a right to resent, to object to, libelous statements about my dog."
> > -Franklin D. Roosevelt
> > Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent
> > Dunellen, New Jersey  08812
> > emails:  mrtownsend at optonline.net;
> > michael.townsend54 at gmail.com
> > Home Phone:  732  200-5643
> > Cellular:  732  718-9480
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> 
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