[Quietcars] NHTSA Administrator on Rule

Mon Oct 10 18:50:51 UTC 2011

Dear Mike,

I am not going to debate this with you.  I already get it.  You like cars 
and don't want anything done to them.
I only care about myself and other Blind People like me who need to have a 
fighting chance to get across the streets alive.
I love cars too and am a charter member of the CARS Division.  I have built 
and driven many cars over the years and owned 7 cars when I met my wife in 
California.
I even worked for Barris Brothers Custom Cars in Anaheim in the mid 1960's 
when we were building the "BAT Mobile" of the TV series and the Munster's 
Roach Coach and Dracula.
I loved driving and really miss it, but now as a blind person, I must think 
in other ways.
I no longer have 3,000 pounds of metal wrapped around me when I cross a 
street.  I can not see the next break in the traffic to know when I can 
begin my crossings.
I have only my ears and my skills to guard me.
I now use a guide dog to help me get around, but he can not make the 
decision about when and where to cross or not.  I have to make that choice 
based on input I get from my surroundings and the skills I have been taught.
I need to hear the cars coming and to know , by the sound, that I am dealing 
with a car or truck or bus or motorcycle.
I need to have some way of gaging how fast it is approaching, which way it 
is going
I don't want to diminish other people's joy of driving, but driving is a 
privilege and not a Right.  I just think that all vehicles need to emit 
enough sound that they can be detectable at a reasonable distance, that 
someone who is dependent upon their hearing to cross streets can hear them 
gage them and avoid being hit by them.
I think that only testing, can show this and help us to set some standards 
both here and around the World.
I said 250 feet, but I am not locked into that distance.  I know that a car 
traveling at 50 to 60 MPH covers allot of ground in 3 seconds and that 
amount of time is about all the time we get to make a decision to walk or 
stay put.
I do not want to place my life in danger or get blood all over someone's 
nice new shiny electric car either.
I feel what we are asking for is reasonable and achievable, but must have 
some standards that work for us, can be reached by the manufacturers and 
enforceable under the Law.

David Evans, NFBF and GD Jack.
Nuclear/Aerospace Materials Engineer
Builder of the Lunar Rovers and The F-117 Stealth Fighter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "michael townsend" <mrtownsend at optonline.net>
To: "'Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety'" 
<quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] NHTSA Administrator on Rule

> David, I don't mean to be argumentative here, but if you can hear a 
> Hyundai
>
> \
> Accent or a
> Toyota
> Corolla from 250 away, you have better hearing than most folks.
> The engines are so quiet in those cars that, unless it's a stick and the
> engine is revved, or unless there is a tuner exhaust present, you ain't
> gonna do it  I know cars and I can't do that, with other cars present.
> Maybe, if the car is tooling along solo with a bit of rpm on the engine,
> that's possible with the stock exhaust, but come on already.\\
>
>
> 10 years ago we had!
> Steve Jobs! Johnny Cash! And Bob Hope!
> Now we've got No jobs, no cash and no hope!
>
>
>
>
> Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent
> Dunellen, New Jersey  08812
> emails:  mrtownsend at optonline.net
>         michael.townsend54 at gmail.com
> H:  732  2005643
> C:  732  7189480
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of David Evans
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:22 AM
> To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] NHTSA Administrator on Rule
>
>
> Dear Bob and All,
>
> As an engineer, and a Blind pedestrian.  I need cars, electric or 
> otherwise,
> to sound like a car.
> In that way, I and others, will be best able to identify and judge whether
> the vehicle is stopped, or moving and maybe even how fast it is moving or 
> if
> it is turning or even going away from us.
> I, an every pedestrian, Blind or sighted, deserves the have the best
> protection we can provide to keep us safe as we walk about and cross
> streets.
> Crossing streets is one of the biggest fears that most Blind people have.
> There is, and always will be, an element of luck and chance involved in
> crossing any street.  As the Blind depend upon our hearing, to a much 
> higher
> degree than do others, it is incumbent upon the government to see to it we
> have what we need to remain as safe as we can.  I do not believe that we 
> can
> just hope and trust the good intentions of the auto manufacturers to 
> protect
> our interest first.
> I do not want your electric car to sound like the "good Humor" man selling
> his ice cream.
> I don't want it to sound like a loud awful piece of machinery either.
> I just want it to make enough sound that I can clearly recognize it as a
> car, tell if it is approaching, stopped or maybe turning.
>
> I want to be able to hear a car, of any type, electric or not, coming from
> at least a distance of 250 feet.
> At least then I think that I can make a judgment as to whether it is safe 
> to
> cross or not.
> I hopefully will not have them surprising me in parking lots and at
> driveways either.
> I had one lady almost back over me in her Toyoda and did not stop until I
> hammered on the roof and back window after dropping my cane and climbing 
> on
> the back of her car.  My cane was sticking halfway out in front of her car
> when she finally stopped.  Guess where I would have been if I had not had
> the quick reaction to climb upon the back of the car and just let my cane
> go.  If she had backed up faster than she did, I would have been injured 
> for
> sure other than just my nerves.
> I think that using sounds that we can already identify and are some what 
> use
> to is the best approach and testing, in real life situations should be 
> used
> to make sure it works and provides the best warning we can have.
> Nothing will ever be 100% safe, but we must do the best we can, for as 
> many
> as we can.
> Putting a bell on the cat seems to be the best way of dealing with this
> situation.
> Outside of the U.S.A., only the U.K. and Spain seem to have Blind
> populations that are taken seriously when it raises a issue about 
> anything.
> The U.K. still has no standards for access nor many Rights at all for the
> protection of the Blind or Disabled.
> We, here in the U.s. , were to first to raise the issue, which is now 
> being
> recognized and talked about in other countries, including Japan.
> I for one, will welcome some standards that will be the same, I hope, 
> where
> ever I go or travel.
>
> David Evans, NFBF and GD Jack.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Wilson" <bwilson4web at hotmail.com>
> To: <quietcars at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 7:22 AM
> Subject: [Quietcars] NHTSA Administrator on Rule
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> This article about implementing S.841 showed up in my Google news alert:
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/10/putting-vroom-back-into-electr
> ic-cars/
>
> "The government today made it official - those quiet electric and
> hybrid cars should sound more like - well - more like their
> conventional gas-powered cousins.
> . . .
> Researchers concluded the best solution was to ensure that electric and
> hybrid vehicles emit the same sound as vehicles with an internal
> combustion engine. They determined the sound should change as the car
> speeds up and slows down - to give pedestrians and other motorists even
> better audio clues about how the vehicle is moving. How to get that
> manufactured sound? Researchers suggested actual recordings of
> conventional cars, or a digitally reproduced alternative. As for how
> loud those added sounds should be? The suggested decibel level has yet
> to be determined.
> . . ."
>
> This means hybrid electrics and electric cars will be just as deadly as
> today's vehicles, no more nor less. As for implementation, the article 
> goes
> on to state:
>
> ". . .
> By law, the government must start its final rule-making by next summer,
> with a final rule in place by January 2014. Makers of electric and
> hybrid vehicles will have three years to phase in the noise
> requirements. By September of 2017, all new hybrid and electric cars
> will have to turn up the decibels."
>
> The NHTSA final report on the nature of sound is here:
> http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NVS/Crash%20Avoidance/Technical%20Publication
> s/2011/811496.pdf
>
> Quieter Cars and the Safety of Blind Pedestrians, Phase 2: Development of
> Potentical Specifications for Vehcile Countermeasure Sounds" - DOT HS 811
> 496
>
> Instead of making hybrids and electric cars safer than today's cars, they
> will simply be just as deadly and that is a shame. For example, this 
> weekend
>
> I was driving home from an out of town trip and there was an accident on 
> the
>
> opposite side of the Interstate but I have learned this is the time I must
> be on maximum alert for the traffic in my lanes because curious drivers 
> slow
>
> down and stop  of paying 100% attention to their local traffic, they lack
> the self-discipline to keep driving.
>
> Accident avoidance systems don't look at other accidents but stare with
> never blinking, never distracted, cold, calculating cameras and radars at
> the surrounding traffic and pedestrians. They react at computer, not human
> speeds this converts fender-benders into misses and fatal and injury
> accidents into a bad bump.
>
> I was concerned that David McCurdy and the Automotive Alliance might get
> hybrids and electric cars to sound like 'ice cream' trucks or some clown
> tune. An organization that gets 98-99% of their funding from gas-only
> powered cars would love to get more hybrid sales by making them sound 
> silly
> to prospective buyers. But synthetic engine noise is the least 
> objectionable
>
> approach and as I've pointed out in the past, makes them just as deadly as
> today's gas powered cars.
>
> Bob Wilson
>
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