[stylist] A New Member

Sun Dec 28 21:23:25 UTC 2008

Well said, John. 

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Lee Clark
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 12:32 PM
To: 'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member

Angela and Jamie:

I have a suggestion for how to look at this.  This list is for writers, and
if we are writers here on this list, almost all content that proceed from us
will naturally and automatically be relevant in one way or another.  So
let's not even think about it, unless we somehow get stuck arguing about
which is better, milk chocolate or dark chocolate, for three weeks straight.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angela fowler
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 1:04 PM
To: 'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member

I should think that anything which gets people talking and is relevant to
blindness is on topic for a writers' list, since the subjects about which we
can write passionately are limitless. Since you seem to disagree with me
Jamie, any ideas?   

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Jamie Forbis
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:20 PM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member

Um, is this really on topic for this list?> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:26:43
-0500> From: jbron at optonline.net> To: stylist at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re:
[stylist] A New Member> > I don't think I'm going to stir things up John,
New York state doesn't stir > well. They are happy living in their narrow
world training people to > perform jobs that are beneath blind professionals
who work in their > bureaucracy.> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John
Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing
List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:46 PM>
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> > > > Judith:> >> > But blind people
can drive to their clients! It is pure discrimination > > when> > the state
services brass demand that they be able to drive in a specific> > manner and
style or otherwise stay out. I am shocked that the reason all > > of> > your
counselors are sighted is because they fit the narrow definition of> >
fulfilling their d  uties that eliminate blind people frorm the same jobs.>
> This is totally unacceptable, and all legal measures should be 
> undertaken
> > to> > abolish such unethical practices!> >> > In my father's case, 
> > to> > he is
a top administrator in the state of Minnesota's> > Division Serving the
Deaf, Hard of Hearing, and DeafBlind in the > > Department> > of Human
Services. He is deafblind and heads the DeafBlind Services > > branch.> >
Part of his job description is to travel to clients and branch offices sto>
> check on his subordinates. He does this just fine. Maybe it's not in 
> the> same manner as some other employees, who get a state car and sit 
> behind >
> the> > wheel, but so what? He still goes places, shows up on time, and
does his> > job.> >> > What state do you live in? I've got this burning
desire to go over there> > and stir things up!> >> > John, with smoke
whitsling from his ears> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> >
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist  -bounces at nfbnet.org] On> >
Behalf Of Judith Bron> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:40 PM> > To:
NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New
Member> >> > Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind 
Member> >> > has
been> > sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously
blind> > people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind 
blind> > people
to use> > adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in facilities for the
blind. > > I> >> > work with other handicaps, mostly mental disabilities,
but have never > > worked> >> > with a blind person in rehabilitation. Yes,
we have a blind governor in > > New> >> > York State but he doesn't use
adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane > > or> >> > read braille. I
just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith> > ----- Original Message
----- > > From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> > To: "'NFBnet
Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> > Sent: Saturday,
  December 27, 2008 6:58 PM> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >> >> >>
Judith:> >>> >> Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a
deaf person a> >> mile> >> away with the way their eyes move, but most
hearing people don't know> >> anything until they'[re spoken to but don't
respond, or if they see them> >> signing.> >>> >> Blindness is more visible,
certainly.> >>> >> But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but
other than> >> that,> >> there's this difference in language. Blind people
speak the same > >> language> >> with the mainstream. For this reason, I
think blind people have greater> >> potential for employment. However, blind
unemployment is far higher than> >> deaf unemployment.> >>> >> I think blind
people are in higher positions, but deaf people have more> >> jobs, just not
as many in very high positions. There are several> >> "industries" suited
especially for deaf people. One is the ASL teaching> >> industry. As the
second most pop  ular foreign language and the fastest> >> growing, there
are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the country.> >> This industry
includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL> >> textbooks,> >>
tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,> >>
CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar> >>
industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and> >>
marketing. A third source of employment is working for the states, for> >>
departments of human services and commissions and social work and also> >>
teaching in the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most > >>
services> >> provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not 
services> >> many
hearing> >> people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give
counseling,> >> train, whatever.> >>> >> But outside of these areas and
other smaller businesses geared toward the> >> deaf, they don't have much
headway. We don't have a deaf judge or a deaf> >  > governor, but you've got
blind people in those positions.> >>> >> I may be wrong but low blind
employment may have to do with the fact > >> blind> >> people are not
required for meeting the needs of or providing services to> >> the blind.
Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational> >>
rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted> >>
teachers,> >> trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind
people. And > >> is> >> the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a
factor for the high> >> unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight
hundred dollars per> >> month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind
people can earn up > >> to> >> twice that. So it is more in the interest for
the deaf to seek full time> >> jobs and less in the interest for the blind
to do the same.> >>> >> What do you think?> >>> >> John> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From:
stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mai  lto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On> >>
Behalf Of Judith Bron> >> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM> >> To:
NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New
Member> >>> >> Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than 
Member> >>> >> blindness
is that deaf> >> people don't look different? In many cases the blind
person's eyes look> >> different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith> >>
----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>>
>> To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> >>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New
Member> >>> >>> >>> John,> >>> I understand your perspective and I am
writing a novel with a blind> >>> character, but having grown up trying to
be sighted and being taught to> >>> be> >>> >>> sighted, I have information
from that world as well and have written > >>> some> >>> fiction with non
blind characters, simply to avoid having the story be> >>> about bl indness,
when the real point is more complicated as well as> >>> universal.>
>>>> >>> I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular
post,> >>> about the difference between the blind and deaf communities. If
the> >>> blind> >>> >>> community were as large, independent and
self-integrated as the deaf> >>> community and if blindness were as socially
acceptable as deafness --> >>> i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the
only blind woman anyone knows> >>> is Helen Keller who died over fifty years
ago, well, perhaps there would> >>> be a market for blindness-related
literature.> >>> Donna> >>>> >>> -- > >>> For my bio & to hear clips from
The Last Straw:> >>> http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill> >>>> >>> Apple I-Tunes>
>>>> >>>
phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374>
>>>> >>> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the 
>>>> >>> Blind>
>>> www.padnfb.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> John Lee Clark wrote:> 
>>> >>>>
Shelley:> >>>>  > >>>> Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own
publishing operation,> >>>> I> >>>> have been involved in the publishing
world for twelve years. I've> >>>> worked> >>>> with many, many writers,
about half of them hearing sighted and the> >>>> other> >>>> deaf sighted
with a few deafblind. While the quality of the writing> >>>> always> >>>>
plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf> >>>>
writers'> >>>> writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an
advantage.> >>>>> >>>> No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort
to write "about"> >>>> being> >>>> deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write
about life--love, crime,> >>>> family,> >>>> whatever--but through deaf
eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own> >>>> observations and sensations.
Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made the> >>>> point> >>>> in his latest book
that there are too many writers who write about > >>>> stuff> >>>> they
learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers ca  n pick it up, even> >>>>
though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his or her> >>>>
own> >>>> genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of
describing> >>>> things> >>> >>>> is> >>>> very important and lends the 
describing> >>>> things> >>> >>>> is> >>>> work
with an aura of, a vibe exuding> >>>> authenticity.> >>>>> >>>> So that's
one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another boon > >>>> to> >>>>
any> >>>> writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the 
any> >>>> annals
of> >>>> literature, those who are "different" from the establishment
population> >>>> but> >>>> don't write from that different perspective 
population> >>>> but> >>>> don't
get published often,> >>>> or> >>> >>>> if> >>>> they do, their work wears
off quickly and they are forgotten. Take the> >>>> example of Thomas
Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't.> >>>> Who> >>>> knows him
now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and groundbreaking> >>>> African
American writer. All of his books are still in print, except> >>>> one,>
>>>>  and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.> 
>>>> >>>>> You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people 
>>>> writing and> trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use 
>>>> in adding more of>
>>>> the> >>>> same types of material to that pot. There are only a 
>>>> the> >>>> limited
number of> >>>> genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over
again. But> >>>> if> >>>> you're blind, and you're privileged to have
different sensations and a> >>>> different touch in your observations,
that's quite a blessing and will> >>>> help> >>>> your work stand out amidst
the awful racket of the same old, same old> >>>> that> >>>> editors endure
reading through week after week.> >>>>> >>>> Now, my deaf writer friends,
they all have found their most important> >>>> and> >>>> rewarding
publishing credits through their deaf material. Many of > >>>> them,> >>>>
before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,> >>>>
thinking> >>>> they would have a  better chance. Not so. Take Raymond
Luczak: He has> >>>> written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf
characters.> >>>> Thirteen> >>> >>>> of> >>>> his plays have been produced.
All twelve deaf plays and one not make > >>>> up> >>>> the> >>>> thirteen,
leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting > >>>> dust.> >>>>
He> >>>> has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No
surprise:> >>>> The> >>>> three mainstream works remain unpublished and the
deaf one won a> >>>> prestigious> >>>> fellowship and also a national
first-novel contest and will be coming> >>>> out> >>>> soon. Raymond's
"hearing" stuff is good and worthy of publication, but> >>>> the> >>>>
problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days, > >>>>
because> >>>> there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA
programs.> >>>> Those> >>>> who get published are the ones with unique
voices, original twists, or> >>>> those> >>>> who bring to the reader
authentic ta  stes of different worlds.> >>>>> >>>> I once got a story from
a good deaf writer. It was about the Titanic.> >>>> A> >>>> couple gets
separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man> >>>> sinks> >>>>
with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and detailed. The > >>>>
writing> >>>> was> >>>> smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental 
writing> >>>> was> >>>> areas,
it was a superb> >>>> story.> >>>> But it was never picked up, and the deaf
writer could not understand > >>>> why> >>>> not, since it was one of her
very best efforts. The reason, of course,> >>>> is> >>>> that the Titanic as
the backdrop for a love story has been done to> >>>> death.> >>>> It was
already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo and > >>>> Kate.>
>>>> But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the great> 
>>>> commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them. They ask 
>>>> each> other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people 
>>>> running.>
>>>> They> >>>> try to get someone to
  write to them on a notepad, but they're all> >>>> panicked.> >>>> So they
have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual> >>>> information,>
>>>> they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the deaf woman in 
>>>> line>
>>>> for> >>>> getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be 
>>>> for> >>>> separated
from her> >>>> husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives,
etc.> >>>> occur.> >>>> And at the end, a twist on the classic separation
thing: The deaf woman> >>>> decides to sink with her husband, so strong is
their bond with each> >>>> other> >>> >>>> as> >>>> they come from a small
community and the deaf woman cannot imagine> >>>> venturing> >>>> out on her
own amidst all those hearing strangers.> >>>> Now, isn't that a much better
story? A blind couple on the Titanic> >>>> would> >>>> likewise be much
better than the mainstream version and would > >>>> definitely> >>>> stand
out!> >>>>> >>>> Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with
but who h  ave> >>>> connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found
greater success in> >>>> publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as
opposed to their> >>>> more> >>>> mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce
Willow, an ASL interpreter. Her> >>>> biggest book credit is her work on
interpreting. Her most prestigious> >>>> magazine credit is for her essay
"Double Language," about her> >>>> experiences> >>> >>>> as> >>>> an
interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more> >>>>
difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a wonderful > >>>>
poet> >>>> and> >>>> professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf
parents, or a CODA as> >>>> we> >>>> call people like her--Children of Deaf
Adults. She has written both> >>>> mainstream stuff and stuff having to do
with her upbringing in a Deaf> >>>> home> >>>> and her continued link with
the Deaf community. You guessed it again:> >>>> Her> >>>> Deaf-related poems
are more readily published and get higher praise  .> >>>>> >>>> It is not
that they can't get published without the deaf material. > >>>> They> >>>>
can> >>>> and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that 
can> >>>> they
do.> >>>> Here> >>>> and there, they are able to be heard, able to be
distinguished from the> >>>> rest> >>>> clamoring for the same editor's
attention. And it's not that writing> >>>> from a> >>>> different
perspective will automatically get you published. The > >>>> writing> >>>>
still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the> >>>>
editor's> >>>> attention, curiosity, and interest.> >>>>> >>>> I don't know
how the deaf writers could possibly try to write > >>>> mainstream> >>>>
stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never> >>>>
could,> >>>> never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me. It would
take too> >>>> much> >>>> effort to pretend, to write about auditory things
I never heard, to> >>>> write> >>>> visual descriptions of what I have never
seen. I a  m of the opinion > >>>> that> >>>> "'catering" to the mainstream
audience is self-defeating, because there> >>>> are> >>>> many writers that
produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're> >>>> "catering" but
they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have> >>>> always> >>>>
written straight from who and what I am. And I am not complaining > >>>>
about> >>>> my> >>>> inability to write mainstream stuff because I've 
about> >>>> my> >>>> been
published in> >>>> POETRY> >>>> magazine twice, while there are thousands of
poets who can only dream> >>>> about> >>>> ever getting there; I've been
published in McSWEENEY'S, America's most> >>>> hip> >>>> literary journal;
I've won all those awards; my work has been broadcast> >>>> on> >>>> radio,
including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha Stewart; > >>>> I'm>
>>>> being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've 
>>>> been
a> >>>> featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown
there> >>>> first-class and with al  l expenses paid . . . so I guess I 
there> >>>> must
be> >>>> doing> >>>> something right.> >>>>> >>>> No, that was not to 
be> >>>> doing> >>>> brag
at all. That was purely to make my point, to> >>>> make> >>>> my case for
writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and> >>>> others> >>>>
to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?> >>>>> >>>> John>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.> 
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>
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_______________________________________________> >>> Writers Division web
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> >> et> >>>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> et> >>>> >>> >>> >> > >>
Writers Division web site:> >> http://www.nfb-writers-divisi  on.org > >>
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >>> >> stylist mailing list> >>
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_______________________________________________> >> Writers Division web
site:> >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > >>
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >>> >> stylist mailing list> >>
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