[stylist] reading lips

Fri Nov 20 04:38:09 UTC 2009

Again, different people react differently.  It's like a dress size.  There's 
no dress made where one size fits all.  Judith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips

I'm glad you find it interesting. I'm sorry if I get heated on the
subject as it's one very close to home for me as I know so many deaf
people who had that method crammed down their throat without giving
them any alternative options.

Helene

On 19/11/2009, Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
> Very good research, Helene.  However, it still has been proven by your
> research that some deaf people can get away with lip reading while others
> can't.  It is conceivable that what I said yesterday about my friend's
> daughter's friend is correct within your research.  She, like everyone, is
> one person in a big sea.  Even when it comes to genetics you can't say 
> that
> so and so's daughter must be good in science.  Her father is a doctor.  I
> write well but some of my kids' contribution to the writing field is their
> signiture.  You can't broad brush anything except absolutes.  If a person 
> is
> totally blind they absolutely cannot see.  If a person is totally deaf 
> they
> absolutely cannot hear.  Outside of that, nothing is written in stone.
> Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips
>
>
> I've just done my own google search. This is what I've found. On the
> percentage we are both wrong. Most deaf DO combine speech with
> residual hearing. That's why HOH do much better at it then profoundly
> deaf people.
> Anyway this is what I found on the subject:
>
> People with normal vision, hearing and social skills unconsciously use
> information from the lips and face to aid aural comprehension in
> everyday conversation, and most fluent speakers of a language are able
> to speechread to some extent. (See McGurk effect.) Each speech sound
> (phoneme) has a particular facial and mouth position (viseme),
> although many phonemes share the same viseme and thus are impossible
> to distinguish from visual information alone. Sounds whose place of
> articulation is inside the mouth or throat are not detectable, such as
> glottal consonants. Voiced and unvoiced pairs look identical, such as
> [p] and [b], [k] and [g], [t] and [d], [f] and [v], and [s] and [z]
> (American English); likewise for nasalisation. It has been estimated
> that only 30% to 40% of sounds in the English language are
> distinguishable from sight alone; the phrase "where there's life,
> there's hope" looks identical to "where's the lavender soap" in most
> English dialects. Author Henry Kisor titled his book What's That Pig
> Outdoors?: A Memoir of Deafness in reference to mishearing the
> question, "What's that big loud noise?" He used this example in the
> book to discuss the shortcomings of speechreading.
>
> Thus a speechreader must use cues from the environment and a knowledge
> of what is likely to be said. It is much easier to speechread
> customary phrases such as greetings than utterances that appear in
> isolation and without supporting information, such as the name of a
> person never met before. Speechreaders who have grown up deaf may
> never have heard the spoken language and are unlikely to be fluent
> users of it, which makes speechreading much more difficult. They must
> also learn the individual visemes by conscious training in an
> educational setting. In addition, speechreading takes a lot of focus,
> and can be extremely tiring. For these and other reasons, many deaf
> people prefer to use other means of communication with non-signers,
> such as mime and gesture, writing, and sign language interpreters.
> When conversing with a speechreader, exaggerated mouthing of words is
> not considered to be helpful and may in fact obscure useful clues.
> However, it is possible to learn to emphasize useful clues — this is
> known as lip speaking.
>
> Other difficult scenarios in which to speechread include:
>
> lack of a clear view of the speaker's lips. This includes obstructions
> such as moustaches or hands in front of the mouth; the speaker's head
> turned aside or away; bright light source such as a window behind the
> speaker.
> group discussions, especially when multiple people are talking in
> quick succession.
> Speechreading may be combined with Cued Speech; one of the arguments
> in favor of the use of cued speech is that it helps develop lip
> reading skills that may be useful even when cues are absent, i.e.,
> when communicating with non-deaf, non-hard of hearing people.
>
> Quote from the Listening Eye, Dorothy Clegg, 1953, "When you are deaf
> you live inside a well-corked glass bottle. You see the entrancing
> outside world, but it does not reach you. After learning to lip read,
> you are still inside the bottle, but the cork has come out and the
> outside world slowly but surely comes in to you." This view is
> relatively controversial within the deaf world - see manualism and
> oralism for an incomplete history of this debate.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lip_reading
>
> Helene
>
> On 19/11/2009, helene ryles <dreamavdb at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Lori,
>> No 20 per cent is the actual figure. 50 percent or more is only if it
>> is combined with something else. Why else would people divise other
>> systems. Tactilating, cued speech, visual phonics. It's to fill the
>> gaps in.
>>
>> As a Hard of hearing person I had residual hearing as well but if the
>> teacher didn't write things on the blackboard I really struggled.
>>
>> If you don't believe me do a google search and I'm sure you will find
>> that the actual amount that is seen on lips is only 20 percent.
>>
>> Helene
>>
>> On 19/11/2009, LoriStay at aol.com <LoriStay at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Helene, each person who lip reads understands a different percentage of
>>> what is being said.   The 20% figure is not true of all.   David says 
>>> his
>>> deaf
>>> friends understand 40 to 50% of what they lip read, and get the rest by
>>> context.   And yes, sometimes they get it wrong.   But to say 20% is
>>> generalizing, and it is not a good idea.
>>> Lori
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/18/09 3:35:28 PM, dreamavdb at googlemail.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> A profoundly deaf person couldn't manage just with lipreading and have
>>>> a happy fullfilling life. For a completely deaf person it really isn't
>>>> possible. You are asking me to believe that your friend daughter leads
>>>> a good life from a method that only allows her 20 percent of what is
>>>> being said. Next you will be asking me to believe that a person who
>>>> cannot see at all is happily managing with the printed word.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>
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