[stylist] Blindness and Photography
Donna Hill
penatwork at epix.net
Wed Aug 11 15:25:20 UTC 2010
Right on, Bridget!
Donna
Read Donna's articles on
Suite 101:
www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
American Chronicle:
www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
Connect with Donna on
Twitter:
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Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
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Check out the "Sound in Sight" CD project
Donna is Head of Media Relations for the nonprofit
Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
www.padnfb.org
On 8/10/2010 11:56 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I saw a story on the Today Show a couple of years ago about a blind
> photographer. He was totally blind, but was a professional
> photographer. He was hired (by the sighted and blind) to work all kinds
> of events including weddings. In the story, he had been hired by a
> sighted couple to work their wedding.
>
> Society (including us who are blind) do not always look outside our
> perceptions. If we can't do it, then we think no one can do it. My
> brain is not wired to think like a scientist, but that does not mean
> others do not have the capacity to think as a scientist. People think
> so many things are visual, and therefore not doable and enjoyable by the
> blind. Initially Apple refused to make the I-phone accessible because,
> according to them, it was a, "fundamentally visually-oriented product,"
> implying that those with blindness would not enjoy it. Well, how many
> of us have enjoyed our I-phones? If everyone thought visually-oriented
> items and things were not possible for the blind, the NFB would not
> exist.
>
> It has been the mission of the NFB to break barriers and prove that the
> sky is the limit for the blind too. That is what the Blind Driver
> Challenge is about. It is not just about the blind being able to drive.
> It reaches farther than that. In a nutshell, if we can make a car
> accessible for the blind to independently drive, then we can make
> anything accessible. The Challenge was issued to force us to think
> outside the box; to change our perceptions and our realities.
>
> As individuals, we have unique personalities, and we hold beliefs and
> enjoy interest. We are not all alike, and we do not always share the
> same ideas and opinions. Yet we (the blind) must accept that perception
> is not knowledge. If we can drive a car then we can be guide dog
> instructors, musicians, writers and even photographers. The world only
> changes when we step out of our comfort zones and attempt the
> (perceived) impossible.
>
> Independence is more than learning alternative skills, and it is more
> than being gainfully employed. Independence is a mindset. If we
> believe in limitations then we do not embrace true independence. If we
> (the blind) are so willing to accept the concept of limitations, then
> how can we expect the rest of society to view us as competent, capable
> people. Disability is also a state of mind. Many have dreamed and saw
> that dream come to fruition because they worked hard and were willing to
> think beyond the perception.
>
> We must be ourselves, and we do not have to pursue things just because
> we are trying to prove a point, but we should also not stifle those who
> truly want to pursue certain avenues. Again, just because I don't
> understand or enjoy some things, does not mean others feel the opposite.
>
> My long ass point here is that we must look beyond perceptions,
> including our own, in order for their to be progress, and not just for
> those of us who are blind, but for the world in general.
>
> Bridgit Pollpeter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 12:00 PM
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 76, Issue 10
>
> Send stylist mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Blindness and photography (loristay)
> 2. Re: Blindness and photography (Donna Hill)
> 3. Re: Blindness and photography (Donna Hill)
> 4. Photography and Sighted Assistance (Joe Orozco)
> 5. Re: Blindness and photography (Judith Bron)
> 6. Re: Blindness and photography (Judith Bron)
> 7. Re: Blindness and photography (Priscilla McKinley)
> 8. Re: Blindness and photography (Robert Leslie Newman)
> 9. Re: Photography and Sighted Assistance (Robert Leslie Newman)
> 10. Re: Blindness and photography (BDM)
> 11. Chris Kuhl's July 4 Piece (Chelsea Cook)
> 12. National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind
> Students (Freeh, Jessica)
> 13. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 76, Issue 9 (Bridgit Pollpeter)
> 14. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 76, Issue 9 (Donna Hill)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:03:28 -0400
> From: loristay<loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<EC34B5E1.1C9A.4BD1.8A87.38FB61C4F79C at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance from
> others, whether sighted or blind? ?No one is completely independent.
> ?That's the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
> raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
> person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
> topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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> com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:17:01 -0400
> From: Donna Hill<penatwork at epix.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<4C60380D.8000609 at epix.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Joe,
> If photos are to be used solely by the blind/visually impaired
> photographer -- those of us who have some usable vision and simply want
> to see things in what is often a better format than reality, because we
> can stare at it for a long time and /or blow it up and change the
> contrast -- then, no sighted help is needed to judge the quality of the
>
> photo. Sighted help, I believe is useful in learning to aim and operate
> the camera to begin with, and in the cases where a blind person wants to
>
> share the photos with others. As Peter points out, he had sighted
> assistance in checking photos prior to posting them on the division
> website. With the low cost of taking digital photos and the fact that
> you can e-mail them to your relatives, you can either count on them to
> weed out the duds -- and sighted people have more duds than good ones --
>
> or have a trusted sighted friend review them prior to using them. I
> certainly don't suggest that anyone start sending out photos to
> publishers as the art work of a blind person, for instance, without
> having plenty of sighted opinions.
>
> Two final points ... There's nothing wrong with wanting to see things or
>
> acknowledging that visual imagery is hugely important in the sighted
> world. There's also nothing wrong in "needing" sighted assistance.
> Sometimes, I think we forget that people in general seek, value and
> indeed need the opinions of others, be they sighted or blind.
> Donna
>
> Read Donna's articles on
> Suite 101:
> www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> American Chronicle:
> www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
>
> Connect with Donna on
> Twitter:
> www.twitter.com/dewhill
> LinkedIn:
> www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> FaceBook:
> www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
>
> Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> Apple I-Tunes
> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=25924437
> 4
>
> Check out the "Sound in Sight" CD project
> Donna is Head of Media Relations for the nonprofit
> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
> www.padnfb.org
>
>
> On 8/8/2010 11:38 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
>>
> raised,
>
>> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
>> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently
>>
> measure
>
>> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
>> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
>>
> person
>
>> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
>> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
>> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
>>
> topic
>
>> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>
> sleeves,
>
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/
>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>
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> x.net
>
>>
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:19:27 -0400
> From: Donna Hill<penatwork at epix.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<4C60389F.6040100 at epix.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Brad, well put and many excellent points.
> Donna
>
> Read Donna's articles on
> Suite 101:
> www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> American Chronicle:
> www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
>
> Connect with Donna on
> Twitter:
> www.twitter.com/dewhill
> LinkedIn:
> www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> FaceBook:
> www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
>
> Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> Apple I-Tunes
> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=25924437
> 4
>
> Check out the "Sound in Sight" CD project
> Donna is Head of Media Relations for the nonprofit
> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
> www.padnfb.org
>
>
> On 8/9/2010 12:55 PM, BDM wrote:
>
>> Since you asked about opinions Robert :). In response to someones
>> recent post. I too am not a nay sayer, optimistically an optimist :),
>> and also an encourager and not complainer by nature. So the following
>>
>
>> comment is meant to be taken in that light. I don't quite understand
>> the point of it being a mockery as a blind photographer, professional
>> or just someone clicking pics for a visual journal of their own or
>> loved one's lives. I agree with the breaking news of fried potatoes
>> thing, that's just folks exposing a lack of mature insight, or being
>> able to actually think things passed the shallow threshold of being
>> amazed we breathe on our own. But I'm not getting the mockery thing or
>>
>
>> how could taking pics as a blind person really make us happy or be
>> enjoyable. I think it is a matter of the perspective of the reasons
>> "why" we do what we do. If I can take a picture and regardless if I'm
>> blind or not, it makes one say, "What a cool shot that is, I've been
>> to that place?" Or "That is just a cool sunset shot", and they enjoy
>> it, isn't that what it is about? I write songs and perform them and
>>
>
>> yes I do like the process, I enjoy it for what it is, but what makes
>> me write is to try to evoke some emotion in a listener, take them on
>> a mini-emotional trip. I know there are people who sing better, play
>> better, write better, entertain better, just like they might center
>> an object in a pic or what not better but that's OK with me. My drive
>>
>
>> as a writer is to let others enjoy or feel. They show their
>> appreciation and I enjoy that in return. It isn't about my playing,
>> writing or singing, its what it evokes from others that matters to me
>> and drives me to continue. My wife is no photographer she basically
>> puts whatever she's taking a picture of in the center of the screen
>> and, bam, clicks it and its done. Yet she got really good composition
>> comments from a professional photographer on one of her pics. She
>> doesn't even know what that is.
>> And I don't wish to beat this example to the ground as I'm sure we've
>> all heard it a thousand times if even once, but it is relevant . The
>>
>
>> deaf musician who plays xylophone or whatever it is, in an orchestra.
>> She in no way has the same enjoyment perspective as we do, but she
>> enjoys it in her own way that matters to her and she's living the
>> dream she wants regardless. Isn't that what it is all about? Probably
>> more applicable are blind web designers, beats me how they do it but
>> they are out there, I can't do it, but that isn't my dream either. If
>> we wish to be seen as just people minus a label, we need to be secure
>>
>
>> in ourselves enough to allow us to be who we are as well. There is
>> much more to the picture than pressing a button, there's the people
>> you get to meet while taking it, there is the vacation you are on, the
>>
>
>> triple story house of cards that is about to blow over if a flea jumps
>>
>
>> on it before you can snap its proof of existence... whatever. People
>> want to do things because of the feeling it gives them, how are we to
>> question the origin of that feeling in whatever they decide to use as
>>
>
>> a vehicle. *smile*.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:20:40 -0400
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [stylist] Photography and Sighted Assistance
> Message-ID:<A1D030516FCF4978973BD2A986A112B2 at Rufus>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Lori,
>
> You misunderstand my point. I am not one of those hard core blind
> people
> who are opposed to sighted assistance by any means. My point is that
> there
> are a plethora of jobs where people can fulfill a job without the need
> for
> sighted people to double check the results. This is not to say that I
> do
> not have my supervisor eyeball my outbound grant proposals before they
> are
> submitted. This does not mean that Peter Donahue does not have someone
> sighted double check his web content before it goes live, but in both
> examples, we are fully capable of assessing the work along the way so
> that
> we can set our own standards for what is working and what is not. I
> agree
> that there are partially sighted people who can enlarge the images to
> make
> their own evaluations, but then this becomes something of a dancing
> target,
> because what is sufficient vision and what is the proper magnification
> tool?
> I'm talking about people who cannot see at all or people who cannot see
> well
> enough to determine for themselves what is poor, what is better, and
> what is
> great. I would personally hate to always have to rely on what other
> people
> claim, because beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. This should
> give
> me a sufficient self of fulfillment, but I guess I'm too much of a
> control
> freak and would want to be able to independently gauge for myself that
> this
> photo was great and that photo was whack. Know what I mean? But, as I
> clearly pointed out, I've never given the issue much thought, so I'm
> willing
> to learn.
>
> Joe
>
> ?Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.?--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of loristay
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for
> assistance from others, whether sighted or blind? ?No one is
> completely independent. ?That's the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already
> been raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity,
> wouldn't a person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see
> that the topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
> their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for stylist:
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> y%40aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> info for stylist:
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> o%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:59:27 -0400
> From: Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<000301cb37ec$9c1766e0$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Some have a difficult time believing that a blind person can identify a
> goal, do what they need to reach it and bbe successful at it. Many of
> these
> people feel better if we keep their roles as pitying folks standing on
> the
> sidelines and cheering those who make our daily existance possible.
> They
> forget that blind and otherwise handicapped people are first and
> foremost
> people. As people we have the right to make our own dreams come true.
> As
> for those other folks, who cares what they think? Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "loristay"<loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
>
> Amen, Pete.
> Lori
> On Aug 7, 2010, at 11:02:27 PM, "Peter Donahue"
> <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> From: "Peter Donahue"<pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 7, 2010 11:02:27 PM EDT
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Hello Elizabeth and everyone,
>
> This reminds me of the reaction I got from some blind individuals I knew
> in Massachusetts when discussing the possibility of blind persons
> becoming
> guide dog instructors. These same people often criticized me for working
> as
> a street musician rather than "being more gainfully employed." It was
> their
> attitude, their unwillingness to explore possibilities, and being
> unsupportive of my dreams and life goals that put myself and a few
> others on
> the streets to begin with.
>
> Not all of us are cut out to be writers or photographers but for God
> sakes if a blind person chooses to become a guide dog trainer, a
> photographer, a writer, or whatever let's support them and quit trying
> to
> steal their dreams! I sent a message similar to this one to the NABS
> List
> earlier this past week concerning a discussion of blind drivers. We're
> federationists and our imaginative spirit and can-do attitude needs to
> shine
> through at all times.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elizabeth Sammons"<antigone at columbus.rr.com>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 9:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
>
> Hi, Robert and all others.
>
> Yes, I'm in complete agreement that this is an interesting discussion,
> and
> of course, knowing us as writers and thinkers, the discussion could and
> should be 100% civil. (Smile.) I simply find it a mockery, a caper that
> either wishes to say "Look at me, I can do this, too," to attract
> attention,
> or else totally missing the idea of good photography. I know you did not
> mean it this way, Robert, and while I agree that listening to a voice, a
> bird song, etc., can help one to find the subject, the difference
> between
> capturing that subject on a picture and making it artistic is the
> difference
> between saying "Look, I know the alphabet and can write a punctuated
> sentence!" and "Look what a fine sentence I just wrote, evoking the mind
> and
> spirit of my subject." I don't feel that people who are blind should put
> themselves out to pursue something for the sake of pursuit rather than
> to do
> a good job any more than as I quoted "Beethoven's Nightmare" the deaf
> group, they could call themselves quote real musicians end quote. For
> the
> record, I think they take themselves with a lot of irony, which makes
> the
> band at least marginally acceptable in my view.
>
> Admittedly, I stand on the more radical edge of this field of thought,
> but
> I'm putting it out boldly for the sake of discussion. If anybody writes
> something that makes me change my mind, I'll smile and let you know,
> though
> please note, I am not particularly trying to say here please change my
> opinion on this matter.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Elizabeth
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:00:59 -0400
> From: Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<000701cb37ec$d3244450$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Of course they do. The difference is they think their dependence on
> others
> is "normal". If blind people want to snap a picture the action, in
> their
> opinion, is abnormal. It's all in the perception of the action. Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "loristay"<loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance from
> others, whether sighted or blind? No one is completely independent.
> That's
> the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
> raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
> person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
> topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
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> com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> ne.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:43:22 -0500
> From: Priscilla McKinley<priscilla.mckinley at gmail.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTikWurTEUL00+Sz6P8vDkQjQavO8AL1PXkHeu8tE at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I have been reading this discussion with interest. I know blind
> photographers and artists, but their work is based on usable vision.
> I was totally sighted for half of my life and I have been totally
> blind for the second half of my life, and while I will take pictures
> for family and friends, I would hire someone to take pictures if I
> needed them for a professional writing assignment. After all, I'm a
> writer, not a photographer. I would want the photographs to be the
> best for a sighted audience, as most of my audience would be sighted.
> Sighted people don't want pictures that are fair. They want
> brilliance. And I'm not saying that blind people can't take brilliant
> photographs, but if a person has no sight, it would be next to
> impossible to know the lighting and so on.
>
> This leads to the whole idea of a contest for blind photographers.
> Isn't it more likely that someone with usable vision would do a better
> job than someone without? After all, lighting is everything for
> photography. I have to wonder if Dr. Jernigan would like such a
> contest. If you haven't read it, perhaps you should listen to the
> dishwashing tape where he explains that we are all equal as blind
> people. Would a photography contest illustrate this? Or would it
> cause a divide? If there was such a contest, wouldn't it make more
> sense to put everyone under sleep shades, as Dr. Jernigan insisted
> should be done in the traning centers so that we would be equal as
> blind individuals?
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Priscilla
>
>
>
> On 8/9/10, Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Of course they do. The difference is they think their dependence on
>>
> others
>
>> is "normal". If blind people want to snap a picture the action, in
>>
> their
>
>> opinion, is abnormal. It's all in the perception of the action.
>>
> Judith
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "loristay"<loristay at aol.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>>
>>
>> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance
>>
> from
>
>> others, whether sighted or blind? No one is completely independent.
>>
> That's
>
>> the way of the world.
>> Lori
>> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
>>
> wrote:
>
>> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
>> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
>>
> raised,
>
>> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
>> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently
>>
> measure
>
>> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
>> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
>>
> person
>
>> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
>> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
>> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
>>
> topic
>
>> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>
> sleeves,
>
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/loristay%40aol.
> com
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonli
> ne.net
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/priscilla.mckin
> ley%40gmail.com
>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:53:45 -0500
> From: "Robert Leslie Newman"<newmanrl at cox.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<8C99E3E5EB974B02A6D84E409103A1E3 at RobertLesliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Brad, well written! what you wrote, was in general what I was meaning of
> personal choice, doing it for me and not really caring how someone else
> thought about it. and as I say, I'm mature enough, comfortable in my
> blindness, that I don't need to prove anything to anyone.
>
>
>
> Robert Leslie Newman
> President NFB Writers' division
> Writers' Division Website-
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> Personal Website-
> http://www.thoughtprovoker.info
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of BDM
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
> Since you asked about opinions Robert :). In response to someones recent
> post. I too am not a nay sayer, optimistically an optimist :), and also
> an
> encourager and not complainer by nature. So the following comment is
> meant
> to be taken in that light. I don't quite understand the point of it
> being a
> mockery as a blind photographer, professional or just someone clicking
> pics
> for a visual journal of their own or loved one's lives. I agree with the
> breaking news of fried potatoes thing, that's just folks exposing a lack
> of
> mature insight, or being able to actually think things passed the
> shallow
> threshold of being amazed we breathe on our own. But I'm not getting the
> mockery thing or how could taking pics as a blind person really make us
> happy or be enjoyable. I think it is a matter of the perspective of the
> reasons "why" we do what we do. If I can take a picture and regardless
> if
> I'm blind or not, it makes one say, "What a cool shot that is, I've been
> to
> that place?" Or "That is just a cool sunset shot", and they enjoy it,
> isn't
> that what it is about? I write songs and perform them and yes I do like
> the
> process, I enjoy it for what it is, but what makes me write is to try
> to
> evoke some emotion in a listener, take them on a mini-emotional trip. I
> know
> there are people who sing better, play better, write better, entertain
> better, just like they might center an object in a pic or what not
> better
> but that's OK with me. My drive as a writer is to let others enjoy or
> feel.
> They show their appreciation and I enjoy that in return. It isn't about
> my
> playing, writing or singing, its what it evokes from others that matters
> to
> me and drives me to continue. My wife is no photographer she basically
> puts
> whatever she's taking a picture of in the center of the screen and,
> bam,
> clicks it and its done. Yet she got really good composition comments
> from a
> professional photographer on one of her pics. She doesn't even know what
> that is.
> And I don't wish to beat this example to the ground as I'm sure we've
> all
> heard it a thousand times if even once, but it is relevant .
> The deaf musician who plays xylophone or whatever it is, in an
> orchestra.
> She in no way has the same enjoyment perspective as we do, but she
> enjoys it
> in her own way that matters to her and she's living the dream she wants
> regardless. Isn't that what it is all about?
> Probably more applicable are blind web designers, beats me how they do
> it
> but they are out there, I can't do it, but that isn't my dream either.
> If we
> wish to be seen as just people minus a label, we need to be secure in
> ourselves enough to allow us to be who we are as well. There is much
> more
> to the picture than pressing a button, there's the people you get to
> meet
> while taking it, there is the vacation you are on, the triple story
> house of
> cards that is about to blow over if a flea jumps on it before you can
> snap
> its proof of existence... whatever. People want to do things because of
> the
> feeling it gives them, how are we to question the origin of that
> feeling in
> whatever they decide to use as a vehicle. *smile*.
>
> Brad
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/newmanrl%40cox.
> net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:58:32 -0500
> From: "Robert Leslie Newman"<newmanrl at cox.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Photography and Sighted Assistance
> Message-ID:<67CA3F62CA6D47938988C8A9AFBDE534 at RobertLesliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Joe, After I take a batch of pictures, I always get my wife or a friend
> to
> check out what've got. I bet I delete eight picks for everyone that I
> keep.
> (I now have an IPhone and need to figure out how to get the pics off of
> it.
> Just haven't taken the time to work on it.)
>
>
>
>
> Robert Leslie Newman
> President NFB Writers' division
> Writers' Division Website-
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> Personal Website-
> http://www.thoughtprovoker.info
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:21 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: [stylist] Photography and Sighted Assistance
>
> Lori,
>
> You misunderstand my point. I am not one of those hard core blind
> people
> who are opposed to sighted assistance by any means. My point is that
> there
> are a plethora of jobs where people can fulfill a job without the need
> for
> sighted people to double check the results. This is not to say that I
> do
> not have my supervisor eyeball my outbound grant proposals before they
> are
> submitted. This does not mean that Peter Donahue does not have someone
> sighted double check his web content before it goes live, but in both
> examples, we are fully capable of assessing the work along the way so
> that
> we can set our own standards for what is working and what is not. I
> agree
> that there are partially sighted people who can enlarge the images to
> make
> their own evaluations, but then this becomes something of a dancing
> target,
> because what is sufficient vision and what is the proper magnification
> tool?
> I'm talking about people who cannot see at all or people who cannot see
> well
> enough to determine for themselves what is poor, what is better, and
> what is
> great. I would personally hate to always have to rely on what other
> people
> claim, because beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. This should
> give
> me a sufficient self of fulfillment, but I guess I'm too much of a
> control
> freak and would want to be able to independently gauge for myself that
> this
> photo was great and that photo was whack. Know what I mean? But, as I
> clearly pointed out, I've never given the issue much thought, so I'm
> willing
> to learn.
>
> Joe
>
> ?Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.?--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of loristay
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance from
> others, whether sighted or blind? ?No one is completely independent.
> ?That's
> the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
> raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
> person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
> topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for stylist:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/lorista
> y%40aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for stylist:
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> o%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/newmanrl%40cox.
> net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:01:50 -0500
> From: BDM<lists at braddunsemusic.com>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<6.2.3.4.2.20100809155108.02a56188 at www.braddunsemusic.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Yep I agree. :) I am fortunate that pre-blindness and post, I've
> always been concerned with my own thoughts and provings rather than
> others.
>
> Brad
>
> At 01:53 PM 8/9/2010, you wrote:
>
>> Brad, well written! what you wrote, was in general what I was meaning
>>
> of
>
>> personal choice, doing it for me and not really caring how someone else
>> thought about it. and as I say, I'm mature enough, comfortable in my
>> blindness, that I don't need to prove anything to anyone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Leslie Newman
>> President NFB Writers' division
>> Writers' Division Website-
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> Personal Website-
>> http://www.thoughtprovoker.info
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of BDM
>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:55 AM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>>
>> Since you asked about opinions Robert :). In response to someones
>>
> recent
>
>> post. I too am not a nay sayer, optimistically an optimist :), and also
>>
> an
>
>> encourager and not complainer by nature. So the following comment is
>>
> meant
>
>> to be taken in that light. I don't quite understand the point of it
>>
> being a
>
>> mockery as a blind photographer, professional or just someone clicking
>>
> pics
>
>> for a visual journal of their own or loved one's lives. I agree with
>>
> the
>
>> breaking news of fried potatoes thing, that's just folks exposing a
>>
> lack of
>
>> mature insight, or being able to actually think things passed the
>>
> shallow
>
>> threshold of being amazed we breathe on our own. But I'm not getting
>>
> the
>
>> mockery thing or how could taking pics as a blind person really make us
>> happy or be enjoyable. I think it is a matter of the perspective of the
>> reasons "why" we do what we do. If I can take a picture and regardless
>>
> if
>
>> I'm blind or not, it makes one say, "What a cool shot that is, I've
>>
> been to
>
>> that place?" Or "That is just a cool sunset shot", and they enjoy it,
>>
> isn't
>
>> that what it is about? I write songs and perform them and yes I do
>>
> like the
>
>> process, I enjoy it for what it is, but what makes me write is to try
>>
> to
>
>> evoke some emotion in a listener, take them on a mini-emotional trip. I
>>
> know
>
>> there are people who sing better, play better, write better, entertain
>> better, just like they might center an object in a pic or what not
>>
> better
>
>> but that's OK with me. My drive as a writer is to let others enjoy or
>>
> feel.
>
>> They show their appreciation and I enjoy that in return. It isn't about
>>
> my
>
>> playing, writing or singing, its what it evokes from others that
>>
> matters to
>
>> me and drives me to continue. My wife is no photographer she basically
>>
> puts
>
>> whatever she's taking a picture of in the center of the screen and,
>>
> bam,
>
>> clicks it and its done. Yet she got really good composition comments
>>
> from a
>
>> professional photographer on one of her pics. She doesn't even know
>>
> what
>
>> that is.
>> And I don't wish to beat this example to the ground as I'm sure we've
>>
> all
>
>> heard it a thousand times if even once, but it is relevant .
>> The deaf musician who plays xylophone or whatever it is, in an
>>
> orchestra.
>
>> She in no way has the same enjoyment perspective as we do, but she
>>
> enjoys it
>
>> in her own way that matters to her and she's living the dream she wants
>> regardless. Isn't that what it is all about?
>> Probably more applicable are blind web designers, beats me how they do
>>
> it
>
>> but they are out there, I can't do it, but that isn't my dream either.
>>
> If we
>
>> wish to be seen as just people minus a label, we need to be secure in
>> ourselves enough to allow us to be who we are as well. There is much
>>
> more
>
>> to the picture than pressing a button, there's the people you get to
>>
> meet
>
>> while taking it, there is the vacation you are on, the triple story
>>
> house of
>
>> cards that is about to blow over if a flea jumps on it before you can
>>
> snap
>
>> its proof of existence... whatever. People want to do things because of
>>
> the
>
>> feeling it gives them, how are we to question the origin of that
>>
> feeling in
>
>> whatever they decide to use as a vehicle. *smile*.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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>>
> .net
>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>
> stylist:
>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/lists%40braddu
>>
> nsemusic.com
>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 5353 (20100809) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
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>
> Brad Dunse
>
> Success in life is a result of good judgment,
> good judgment is a result of experience,
> experience is a result of bad judgment
>
> E Mail: brad at braddunsemusic.com
>
> Website: http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=1464323555
>
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>
> MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/braddunse
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:26:39 -0400
> From: Chelsea Cook<astrochem119 at gmail.com>
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [stylist] Chris Kuhl's July 4 Piece
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimwbo5qAKCDxmYqS_gVhDswqhpQmLy4OBGyOX5g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Chris,
>
> I read your piece and absolutely loved the interplay of the different
> holidays. The dialogue and characters were clever and interesting.
> I've just been away at Orientation and vacation, so did not have much
> time to post. But don't worry: I enjoyed your writing very much!
> Please keep sharing!
>
> Very busy preparing for college,
> Chelsea Cook
>
>
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