[stylist] Cars, Photography and Priorities
Donna Hill
penatwork at epix.net
Wed Aug 11 15:56:23 UTC 2010
Joe,
The point behind the blind drivers' challenge is to address the hard
core social prejudices which underlie the very concerns you pose. In a
day and age where perceptions are molded by multi-million dollar multi
media campaigns, people are influenced by what they witness as much or
more than through reasoned arguement. Seeing blind kids actually
operating a vehicle independently helps shatter the belief that we are
basically incapable . It is that belief that holds qualified blind
people back. The idea is to get sighted people, most of whom have no
dealings with blind people, to think, "If they can drive, what else can
they do?" Furthermore, the technology side of it raises the issue: if a
little technology can enable "them" to drive, what else could technology
help with? It is also fundamental research -- something that our nation
has fallen behind in over the last few decades. In short, I think it's
well worth the investment.
Donna
Read Donna's articles on
Suite 101:
www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
American Chronicle:
www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
Connect with Donna on
Twitter:
www.twitter.com/dewhill
LinkedIn:
www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
FaceBook:
www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
Apple I-Tunes
phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
Check out the "Sound in Sight" CD project
Donna is Head of Media Relations for the nonprofit
Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
www.padnfb.org
On 8/11/2010 10:17 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:
> Dear Bridgit and all,
>
> I am one of the people against using resources for cars for the blind and am
> generally uninformed and therefore skeptical about photography by the blind.
> I've already laid out my reasons for the former, but generally speaking, I
> think those of us who are hesitant to embrace hard core projects like the
> cars for the blind do it out of a sense of frustration with the status quo.
> Here, in our current reality, there are blind parents who's children are
> taken away for no other reason than they are blind. There is a persistent
> unemployment rate among the blind that has not wavered significantly since
> the organization began its work over 60 years ago. There are students who
> must still fight to ensure that universities do not adopt textbooks they
> cannot access. Yes, we should think forward to try to craft a better
> existence for ourselves, but what do we do about the here and now, where
> people are still struggling to be accepted? It seems to me that to place
> our trust in technology is an endless cycle of catching up. Our notetakers
> are a prime indication of how the blind are always ten steps behind. The
> NFB is primarily a volunteer-driven operation, and it is also an operation
> fueled by donations. Both resources are limited, and so then the question
> becomes: Do we detract from our primary purpose to place our hopes on a
> distant future, or do we dedicate our strength to helping people today,
> right now? I do not put cars for the blind and blind photography on the
> same level. It seems to me that blind people will either choose to snap
> pictures, or they will not. Nothing is being detracted from the upward
> mobility of the blind population as a whole. It is not even a question of
> whether cars for the blind are a good idea. It is more of a decision of
> whether the NFB is the right vehicle to make it happen.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:56 PM
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [stylist] Blindness and Photography
>
> Dear List,
>
> I saw a story on the Today Show a couple of years ago about a blind
> photographer. He was totally blind, but was a professional
> photographer. He was hired (by the sighted and blind) to work all kinds
> of events including weddings. In the story, he had been hired by a
> sighted couple to work their wedding.
>
> Society (including us who are blind) do not always look outside our
> perceptions. If we can't do it, then we think no one can do it. My
> brain is not wired to think like a scientist, but that does not mean
> others do not have the capacity to think as a scientist. People think
> so many things are visual, and therefore not doable and enjoyable by the
> blind. Initially Apple refused to make the I-phone accessible because,
> according to them, it was a, "fundamentally visually-oriented product,"
> implying that those with blindness would not enjoy it. Well, how many
> of us have enjoyed our I-phones? If everyone thought visually-oriented
> items and things were not possible for the blind, the NFB would not
> exist.
>
> It has been the mission of the NFB to break barriers and prove that the
> sky is the limit for the blind too. That is what the Blind Driver
> Challenge is about. It is not just about the blind being able to drive.
> It reaches farther than that. In a nutshell, if we can make a car
> accessible for the blind to independently drive, then we can make
> anything accessible. The Challenge was issued to force us to think
> outside the box; to change our perceptions and our realities.
>
> As individuals, we have unique personalities, and we hold beliefs and
> enjoy interest. We are not all alike, and we do not always share the
> same ideas and opinions. Yet we (the blind) must accept that perception
> is not knowledge. If we can drive a car then we can be guide dog
> instructors, musicians, writers and even photographers. The world only
> changes when we step out of our comfort zones and attempt the
> (perceived) impossible.
>
> Independence is more than learning alternative skills, and it is more
> than being gainfully employed. Independence is a mindset. If we
> believe in limitations then we do not embrace true independence. If we
> (the blind) are so willing to accept the concept of limitations, then
> how can we expect the rest of society to view us as competent, capable
> people. Disability is also a state of mind. Many have dreamed and saw
> that dream come to fruition because they worked hard and were willing to
> think beyond the perception.
>
> We must be ourselves, and we do not have to pursue things just because
> we are trying to prove a point, but we should also not stifle those who
> truly want to pursue certain avenues. Again, just because I don't
> understand or enjoy some things, does not mean others feel the opposite.
>
> My long ass point here is that we must look beyond perceptions,
> including our own, in order for their to be progress, and not just for
> those of us who are blind, but for the world in general.
>
> Bridgit Pollpeter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 12:00 PM
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 76, Issue 10
>
> Send stylist mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Blindness and photography (loristay)
> 2. Re: Blindness and photography (Donna Hill)
> 3. Re: Blindness and photography (Donna Hill)
> 4. Photography and Sighted Assistance (Joe Orozco)
> 5. Re: Blindness and photography (Judith Bron)
> 6. Re: Blindness and photography (Judith Bron)
> 7. Re: Blindness and photography (Priscilla McKinley)
> 8. Re: Blindness and photography (Robert Leslie Newman)
> 9. Re: Photography and Sighted Assistance (Robert Leslie Newman)
> 10. Re: Blindness and photography (BDM)
> 11. Chris Kuhl's July 4 Piece (Chelsea Cook)
> 12. National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind
> Students (Freeh, Jessica)
> 13. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 76, Issue 9 (Bridgit Pollpeter)
> 14. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 76, Issue 9 (Donna Hill)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:03:28 -0400
> From: loristay<loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<EC34B5E1.1C9A.4BD1.8A87.38FB61C4F79C at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance from
> others, whether sighted or blind? ?No one is completely independent.
> ?That's the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
> raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
> person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
> topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:17:01 -0400
> From: Donna Hill<penatwork at epix.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<4C60380D.8000609 at epix.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Joe,
> If photos are to be used solely by the blind/visually impaired
> photographer -- those of us who have some usable vision and simply want
> to see things in what is often a better format than reality, because we
> can stare at it for a long time and /or blow it up and change the
> contrast -- then, no sighted help is needed to judge the quality of the
>
> photo. Sighted help, I believe is useful in learning to aim and operate
> the camera to begin with, and in the cases where a blind person wants to
>
> share the photos with others. As Peter points out, he had sighted
> assistance in checking photos prior to posting them on the division
> website. With the low cost of taking digital photos and the fact that
> you can e-mail them to your relatives, you can either count on them to
> weed out the duds -- and sighted people have more duds than good ones --
>
> or have a trusted sighted friend review them prior to using them. I
> certainly don't suggest that anyone start sending out photos to
> publishers as the art work of a blind person, for instance, without
> having plenty of sighted opinions.
>
> Two final points ... There's nothing wrong with wanting to see things or
>
> acknowledging that visual imagery is hugely important in the sighted
> world. There's also nothing wrong in "needing" sighted assistance.
> Sometimes, I think we forget that people in general seek, value and
> indeed need the opinions of others, be they sighted or blind.
> Donna
>
> Read Donna's articles on
> Suite 101:
> www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> American Chronicle:
> www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
>
> Connect with Donna on
> Twitter:
> www.twitter.com/dewhill
> LinkedIn:
> www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> FaceBook:
> www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
>
> Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> Apple I-Tunes
> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=25924437
> 4
>
> Check out the "Sound in Sight" CD project
> Donna is Head of Media Relations for the nonprofit
> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
> www.padnfb.org
>
>
> On 8/8/2010 11:38 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
>>
> raised,
>
>> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
>> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently
>>
> measure
>
>> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
>> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
>>
> person
>
>> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
>> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
>> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
>>
> topic
>
>> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>
> sleeves,
>
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/
>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>
> stylist:
>
>>
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> x.net
>
>>
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:19:27 -0400
> From: Donna Hill<penatwork at epix.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<4C60389F.6040100 at epix.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Brad, well put and many excellent points.
> Donna
>
> Read Donna's articles on
> Suite 101:
> www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> American Chronicle:
> www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
>
> Connect with Donna on
> Twitter:
> www.twitter.com/dewhill
> LinkedIn:
> www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> FaceBook:
> www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
>
> Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> Apple I-Tunes
> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=25924437
> 4
>
> Check out the "Sound in Sight" CD project
> Donna is Head of Media Relations for the nonprofit
> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
> www.padnfb.org
>
>
> On 8/9/2010 12:55 PM, BDM wrote:
>
>> Since you asked about opinions Robert :). In response to someones
>> recent post. I too am not a nay sayer, optimistically an optimist :),
>> and also an encourager and not complainer by nature. So the following
>>
>
>> comment is meant to be taken in that light. I don't quite understand
>> the point of it being a mockery as a blind photographer, professional
>> or just someone clicking pics for a visual journal of their own or
>> loved one's lives. I agree with the breaking news of fried potatoes
>> thing, that's just folks exposing a lack of mature insight, or being
>> able to actually think things passed the shallow threshold of being
>> amazed we breathe on our own. But I'm not getting the mockery thing or
>>
>
>> how could taking pics as a blind person really make us happy or be
>> enjoyable. I think it is a matter of the perspective of the reasons
>> "why" we do what we do. If I can take a picture and regardless if I'm
>> blind or not, it makes one say, "What a cool shot that is, I've been
>> to that place?" Or "That is just a cool sunset shot", and they enjoy
>> it, isn't that what it is about? I write songs and perform them and
>>
>
>> yes I do like the process, I enjoy it for what it is, but what makes
>> me write is to try to evoke some emotion in a listener, take them on
>> a mini-emotional trip. I know there are people who sing better, play
>> better, write better, entertain better, just like they might center
>> an object in a pic or what not better but that's OK with me. My drive
>>
>
>> as a writer is to let others enjoy or feel. They show their
>> appreciation and I enjoy that in return. It isn't about my playing,
>> writing or singing, its what it evokes from others that matters to me
>> and drives me to continue. My wife is no photographer she basically
>> puts whatever she's taking a picture of in the center of the screen
>> and, bam, clicks it and its done. Yet she got really good composition
>> comments from a professional photographer on one of her pics. She
>> doesn't even know what that is.
>> And I don't wish to beat this example to the ground as I'm sure we've
>> all heard it a thousand times if even once, but it is relevant . The
>>
>
>> deaf musician who plays xylophone or whatever it is, in an orchestra.
>> She in no way has the same enjoyment perspective as we do, but she
>> enjoys it in her own way that matters to her and she's living the
>> dream she wants regardless. Isn't that what it is all about? Probably
>> more applicable are blind web designers, beats me how they do it but
>> they are out there, I can't do it, but that isn't my dream either. If
>> we wish to be seen as just people minus a label, we need to be secure
>>
>
>> in ourselves enough to allow us to be who we are as well. There is
>> much more to the picture than pressing a button, there's the people
>> you get to meet while taking it, there is the vacation you are on, the
>>
>
>> triple story house of cards that is about to blow over if a flea jumps
>>
>
>> on it before you can snap its proof of existence... whatever. People
>> want to do things because of the feeling it gives them, how are we to
>> question the origin of that feeling in whatever they decide to use as
>>
>
>> a vehicle. *smile*.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:20:40 -0400
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [stylist] Photography and Sighted Assistance
> Message-ID:<A1D030516FCF4978973BD2A986A112B2 at Rufus>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Lori,
>
> You misunderstand my point. I am not one of those hard core blind
> people
> who are opposed to sighted assistance by any means. My point is that
> there
> are a plethora of jobs where people can fulfill a job without the need
> for
> sighted people to double check the results. This is not to say that I
> do
> not have my supervisor eyeball my outbound grant proposals before they
> are
> submitted. This does not mean that Peter Donahue does not have someone
> sighted double check his web content before it goes live, but in both
> examples, we are fully capable of assessing the work along the way so
> that
> we can set our own standards for what is working and what is not. I
> agree
> that there are partially sighted people who can enlarge the images to
> make
> their own evaluations, but then this becomes something of a dancing
> target,
> because what is sufficient vision and what is the proper magnification
> tool?
> I'm talking about people who cannot see at all or people who cannot see
> well
> enough to determine for themselves what is poor, what is better, and
> what is
> great. I would personally hate to always have to rely on what other
> people
> claim, because beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. This should
> give
> me a sufficient self of fulfillment, but I guess I'm too much of a
> control
> freak and would want to be able to independently gauge for myself that
> this
> photo was great and that photo was whack. Know what I mean? But, as I
> clearly pointed out, I've never given the issue much thought, so I'm
> willing
> to learn.
>
> Joe
>
> ?Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.?--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of loristay
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for
> assistance from others, whether sighted or blind? ?No one is
> completely independent. ?That's the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already
> been raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity,
> wouldn't a person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see
> that the topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
> their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
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> info for stylist:
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> y%40aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> o%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:59:27 -0400
> From: Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<000301cb37ec$9c1766e0$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Some have a difficult time believing that a blind person can identify a
> goal, do what they need to reach it and bbe successful at it. Many of
> these
> people feel better if we keep their roles as pitying folks standing on
> the
> sidelines and cheering those who make our daily existance possible.
> They
> forget that blind and otherwise handicapped people are first and
> foremost
> people. As people we have the right to make our own dreams come true.
> As
> for those other folks, who cares what they think? Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "loristay"<loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
>
> Amen, Pete.
> Lori
> On Aug 7, 2010, at 11:02:27 PM, "Peter Donahue"
> <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> From: "Peter Donahue"<pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 7, 2010 11:02:27 PM EDT
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Hello Elizabeth and everyone,
>
> This reminds me of the reaction I got from some blind individuals I knew
> in Massachusetts when discussing the possibility of blind persons
> becoming
> guide dog instructors. These same people often criticized me for working
> as
> a street musician rather than "being more gainfully employed." It was
> their
> attitude, their unwillingness to explore possibilities, and being
> unsupportive of my dreams and life goals that put myself and a few
> others on
> the streets to begin with.
>
> Not all of us are cut out to be writers or photographers but for God
> sakes if a blind person chooses to become a guide dog trainer, a
> photographer, a writer, or whatever let's support them and quit trying
> to
> steal their dreams! I sent a message similar to this one to the NABS
> List
> earlier this past week concerning a discussion of blind drivers. We're
> federationists and our imaginative spirit and can-do attitude needs to
> shine
> through at all times.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elizabeth Sammons"<antigone at columbus.rr.com>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 9:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
>
> Hi, Robert and all others.
>
> Yes, I'm in complete agreement that this is an interesting discussion,
> and
> of course, knowing us as writers and thinkers, the discussion could and
> should be 100% civil. (Smile.) I simply find it a mockery, a caper that
> either wishes to say "Look at me, I can do this, too," to attract
> attention,
> or else totally missing the idea of good photography. I know you did not
> mean it this way, Robert, and while I agree that listening to a voice, a
> bird song, etc., can help one to find the subject, the difference
> between
> capturing that subject on a picture and making it artistic is the
> difference
> between saying "Look, I know the alphabet and can write a punctuated
> sentence!" and "Look what a fine sentence I just wrote, evoking the mind
> and
> spirit of my subject." I don't feel that people who are blind should put
> themselves out to pursue something for the sake of pursuit rather than
> to do
> a good job any more than as I quoted "Beethoven's Nightmare" the deaf
> group, they could call themselves quote real musicians end quote. For
> the
> record, I think they take themselves with a lot of irony, which makes
> the
> band at least marginally acceptable in my view.
>
> Admittedly, I stand on the more radical edge of this field of thought,
> but
> I'm putting it out boldly for the sake of discussion. If anybody writes
> something that makes me change my mind, I'll smile and let you know,
> though
> please note, I am not particularly trying to say here please change my
> opinion on this matter.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Elizabeth
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:00:59 -0400
> From: Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<000701cb37ec$d3244450$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Of course they do. The difference is they think their dependence on
> others
> is "normal". If blind people want to snap a picture the action, in
> their
> opinion, is abnormal. It's all in the perception of the action. Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "loristay"<loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance from
> others, whether sighted or blind? No one is completely independent.
> That's
> the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
> raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
> person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
> topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:43:22 -0500
> From: Priscilla McKinley<priscilla.mckinley at gmail.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTikWurTEUL00+Sz6P8vDkQjQavO8AL1PXkHeu8tE at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I have been reading this discussion with interest. I know blind
> photographers and artists, but their work is based on usable vision.
> I was totally sighted for half of my life and I have been totally
> blind for the second half of my life, and while I will take pictures
> for family and friends, I would hire someone to take pictures if I
> needed them for a professional writing assignment. After all, I'm a
> writer, not a photographer. I would want the photographs to be the
> best for a sighted audience, as most of my audience would be sighted.
> Sighted people don't want pictures that are fair. They want
> brilliance. And I'm not saying that blind people can't take brilliant
> photographs, but if a person has no sight, it would be next to
> impossible to know the lighting and so on.
>
> This leads to the whole idea of a contest for blind photographers.
> Isn't it more likely that someone with usable vision would do a better
> job than someone without? After all, lighting is everything for
> photography. I have to wonder if Dr. Jernigan would like such a
> contest. If you haven't read it, perhaps you should listen to the
> dishwashing tape where he explains that we are all equal as blind
> people. Would a photography contest illustrate this? Or would it
> cause a divide? If there was such a contest, wouldn't it make more
> sense to put everyone under sleep shades, as Dr. Jernigan insisted
> should be done in the traning centers so that we would be equal as
> blind individuals?
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Priscilla
>
>
>
> On 8/9/10, Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Of course they do. The difference is they think their dependence on
>>
> others
>
>> is "normal". If blind people want to snap a picture the action, in
>>
> their
>
>> opinion, is abnormal. It's all in the perception of the action.
>>
> Judith
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "loristay"<loristay at aol.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>>
>>
>> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance
>>
> from
>
>> others, whether sighted or blind? No one is completely independent.
>>
> That's
>
>> the way of the world.
>> Lori
>> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
>>
> wrote:
>
>> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
>> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
>>
> raised,
>
>> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
>> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently
>>
> measure
>
>> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
>> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
>>
> person
>
>> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
>> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
>> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
>>
> topic
>
>> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>
> sleeves,
>
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/loristay%40aol.
> com
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonli
> ne.net
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/priscilla.mckin
> ley%40gmail.com
>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:53:45 -0500
> From: "Robert Leslie Newman"<newmanrl at cox.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<8C99E3E5EB974B02A6D84E409103A1E3 at RobertLesliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Brad, well written! what you wrote, was in general what I was meaning of
> personal choice, doing it for me and not really caring how someone else
> thought about it. and as I say, I'm mature enough, comfortable in my
> blindness, that I don't need to prove anything to anyone.
>
>
>
> Robert Leslie Newman
> President NFB Writers' division
> Writers' Division Website-
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> Personal Website-
> http://www.thoughtprovoker.info
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of BDM
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
> Since you asked about opinions Robert :). In response to someones recent
> post. I too am not a nay sayer, optimistically an optimist :), and also
> an
> encourager and not complainer by nature. So the following comment is
> meant
> to be taken in that light. I don't quite understand the point of it
> being a
> mockery as a blind photographer, professional or just someone clicking
> pics
> for a visual journal of their own or loved one's lives. I agree with the
> breaking news of fried potatoes thing, that's just folks exposing a lack
> of
> mature insight, or being able to actually think things passed the
> shallow
> threshold of being amazed we breathe on our own. But I'm not getting the
> mockery thing or how could taking pics as a blind person really make us
> happy or be enjoyable. I think it is a matter of the perspective of the
> reasons "why" we do what we do. If I can take a picture and regardless
> if
> I'm blind or not, it makes one say, "What a cool shot that is, I've been
> to
> that place?" Or "That is just a cool sunset shot", and they enjoy it,
> isn't
> that what it is about? I write songs and perform them and yes I do like
> the
> process, I enjoy it for what it is, but what makes me write is to try
> to
> evoke some emotion in a listener, take them on a mini-emotional trip. I
> know
> there are people who sing better, play better, write better, entertain
> better, just like they might center an object in a pic or what not
> better
> but that's OK with me. My drive as a writer is to let others enjoy or
> feel.
> They show their appreciation and I enjoy that in return. It isn't about
> my
> playing, writing or singing, its what it evokes from others that matters
> to
> me and drives me to continue. My wife is no photographer she basically
> puts
> whatever she's taking a picture of in the center of the screen and,
> bam,
> clicks it and its done. Yet she got really good composition comments
> from a
> professional photographer on one of her pics. She doesn't even know what
> that is.
> And I don't wish to beat this example to the ground as I'm sure we've
> all
> heard it a thousand times if even once, but it is relevant .
> The deaf musician who plays xylophone or whatever it is, in an
> orchestra.
> She in no way has the same enjoyment perspective as we do, but she
> enjoys it
> in her own way that matters to her and she's living the dream she wants
> regardless. Isn't that what it is all about?
> Probably more applicable are blind web designers, beats me how they do
> it
> but they are out there, I can't do it, but that isn't my dream either.
> If we
> wish to be seen as just people minus a label, we need to be secure in
> ourselves enough to allow us to be who we are as well. There is much
> more
> to the picture than pressing a button, there's the people you get to
> meet
> while taking it, there is the vacation you are on, the triple story
> house of
> cards that is about to blow over if a flea jumps on it before you can
> snap
> its proof of existence... whatever. People want to do things because of
> the
> feeling it gives them, how are we to question the origin of that
> feeling in
> whatever they decide to use as a vehicle. *smile*.
>
> Brad
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:58:32 -0500
> From: "Robert Leslie Newman"<newmanrl at cox.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Photography and Sighted Assistance
> Message-ID:<67CA3F62CA6D47938988C8A9AFBDE534 at RobertLesliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Joe, After I take a batch of pictures, I always get my wife or a friend
> to
> check out what've got. I bet I delete eight picks for everyone that I
> keep.
> (I now have an IPhone and need to figure out how to get the pics off of
> it.
> Just haven't taken the time to work on it.)
>
>
>
>
> Robert Leslie Newman
> President NFB Writers' division
> Writers' Division Website-
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> Personal Website-
> http://www.thoughtprovoker.info
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:21 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: [stylist] Photography and Sighted Assistance
>
> Lori,
>
> You misunderstand my point. I am not one of those hard core blind
> people
> who are opposed to sighted assistance by any means. My point is that
> there
> are a plethora of jobs where people can fulfill a job without the need
> for
> sighted people to double check the results. This is not to say that I
> do
> not have my supervisor eyeball my outbound grant proposals before they
> are
> submitted. This does not mean that Peter Donahue does not have someone
> sighted double check his web content before it goes live, but in both
> examples, we are fully capable of assessing the work along the way so
> that
> we can set our own standards for what is working and what is not. I
> agree
> that there are partially sighted people who can enlarge the images to
> make
> their own evaluations, but then this becomes something of a dancing
> target,
> because what is sufficient vision and what is the proper magnification
> tool?
> I'm talking about people who cannot see at all or people who cannot see
> well
> enough to determine for themselves what is poor, what is better, and
> what is
> great. I would personally hate to always have to rely on what other
> people
> claim, because beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. This should
> give
> me a sufficient self of fulfillment, but I guess I'm too much of a
> control
> freak and would want to be able to independently gauge for myself that
> this
> photo was great and that photo was whack. Know what I mean? But, as I
> clearly pointed out, I've never given the issue much thought, so I'm
> willing
> to learn.
>
> Joe
>
> ?Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.?--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of loristay
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:03 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>
> What makes you think sighted people don't often ask for assistance from
> others, whether sighted or blind? ?No one is completely independent.
> ?That's
> the way of the world.
> Lori
> On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:38:31 PM, "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Joe Orozco"<jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Date: August 8, 2010 11:38:31 PM EDT
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'"<stylist at nfbnet.org> Dear all,
>
> I haven't followed this thread. Forgive me if this has already been
> raised,
> but how exactly do blind people know how to gauge the quality of their
> product? This can't possibly be something one can independently measure
> without sighted assistance, and at that point, doesn't it become
> counterproductive? If pictures are taken for posterity, wouldn't a
> person
> want that to be preserved at its best? I'm not bashing it, because I
> genuinely don't know how blind people would do it. I'm open to
> enlightenment, though I'm scanning through my e-mail and see that the
> topic
> has been bounced about quite a bit already.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for stylist:
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> y%40aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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> o%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:01:50 -0500
> From: BDM<lists at braddunsemusic.com>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
> Message-ID:<6.2.3.4.2.20100809155108.02a56188 at www.braddunsemusic.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Yep I agree. :) I am fortunate that pre-blindness and post, I've
> always been concerned with my own thoughts and provings rather than
> others.
>
> Brad
>
> At 01:53 PM 8/9/2010, you wrote:
>
>> Brad, well written! what you wrote, was in general what I was meaning
>>
> of
>
>> personal choice, doing it for me and not really caring how someone else
>> thought about it. and as I say, I'm mature enough, comfortable in my
>> blindness, that I don't need to prove anything to anyone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Leslie Newman
>> President NFB Writers' division
>> Writers' Division Website-
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> Personal Website-
>> http://www.thoughtprovoker.info
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of BDM
>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:55 AM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Blindness and photography
>>
>> Since you asked about opinions Robert :). In response to someones
>>
> recent
>
>> post. I too am not a nay sayer, optimistically an optimist :), and also
>>
> an
>
>> encourager and not complainer by nature. So the following comment is
>>
> meant
>
>> to be taken in that light. I don't quite understand the point of it
>>
> being a
>
>> mockery as a blind photographer, professional or just someone clicking
>>
> pics
>
>> for a visual journal of their own or loved one's lives. I agree with
>>
> the
>
>> breaking news of fried potatoes thing, that's just folks exposing a
>>
> lack of
>
>> mature insight, or being able to actually think things passed the
>>
> shallow
>
>> threshold of being amazed we breathe on our own. But I'm not getting
>>
> the
>
>> mockery thing or how could taking pics as a blind person really make us
>> happy or be enjoyable. I think it is a matter of the perspective of the
>> reasons "why" we do what we do. If I can take a picture and regardless
>>
> if
>
>> I'm blind or not, it makes one say, "What a cool shot that is, I've
>>
> been to
>
>> that place?" Or "That is just a cool sunset shot", and they enjoy it,
>>
> isn't
>
>> that what it is about? I write songs and perform them and yes I do
>>
> like the
>
>> process, I enjoy it for what it is, but what makes me write is to try
>>
> to
>
>> evoke some emotion in a listener, take them on a mini-emotional trip. I
>>
> know
>
>> there are people who sing better, play better, write better, entertain
>> better, just like they might center an object in a pic or what not
>>
> better
>
>> but that's OK with me. My drive as a writer is to let others enjoy or
>>
> feel.
>
>> They show their appreciation and I enjoy that in return. It isn't about
>>
> my
>
>> playing, writing or singing, its what it evokes from others that
>>
> matters to
>
>> me and drives me to continue. My wife is no photographer she basically
>>
> puts
>
>> whatever she's taking a picture of in the center of the screen and,
>>
> bam,
>
>> clicks it and its done. Yet she got really good composition comments
>>
> from a
>
>> professional photographer on one of her pics. She doesn't even know
>>
> what
>
>> that is.
>> And I don't wish to beat this example to the ground as I'm sure we've
>>
> all
>
>> heard it a thousand times if even once, but it is relevant .
>> The deaf musician who plays xylophone or whatever it is, in an
>>
> orchestra.
>
>> She in no way has the same enjoyment perspective as we do, but she
>>
> enjoys it
>
>> in her own way that matters to her and she's living the dream she wants
>> regardless. Isn't that what it is all about?
>> Probably more applicable are blind web designers, beats me how they do
>>
> it
>
>> but they are out there, I can't do it, but that isn't my dream either.
>>
> If we
>
>> wish to be seen as just people minus a label, we need to be secure in
>> ourselves enough to allow us to be who we are as well. There is much
>>
> more
>
>> to the picture than pressing a button, there's the people you get to
>>
> meet
>
>> while taking it, there is the vacation you are on, the triple story
>>
> house of
>
>> cards that is about to blow over if a flea jumps on it before you can
>>
> snap
>
>> its proof of existence... whatever. People want to do things because of
>>
> the
>
>> feeling it gives them, how are we to question the origin of that
>>
> feeling in
>
>> whatever they decide to use as a vehicle. *smile*.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>> stylist mailing list
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> stylist:
>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/lists%40braddu
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> nsemusic.com
>
>>
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>
> Brad Dunse
>
> Success in life is a result of good judgment,
> good judgment is a result of experience,
> experience is a result of bad judgment
>
> E Mail: brad at braddunsemusic.com
>
> Website: http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=1464323555
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:26:39 -0400
> From: Chelsea Cook<astrochem119 at gmail.com>
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [stylist] Chris Kuhl's July 4 Piece
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimwbo5qAKCDxmYqS_gVhDswqhpQmLy4OBGyOX5g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Chris,
>
> I read your piece and absolutely loved the interplay of the different
> holidays. The dialogue and characters were clever and interesting.
> I've just been away at Orientation and vacation, so did not have much
> time to post. But don't worry: I enjoyed your writing very much!
> Please keep sharing!
>
> Very busy preparing for college,
> Chelsea Cook
>
>
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