[stylist] Past and past perfect
Bridgit Pollpeter
bpollpeter at hotmail.com
Thu Jun 10 19:04:30 UTC 2010
Lori,
Yes, you are correct. Elements of Style is a good style book that is simple and pretty straight forward, and yes, it is avaiable on NLS and BARD.
Bridgit
> From: stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 11
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:00:11 -0500
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Addressing echo location (Bridgit Pollpeter)
> 2. Past simple and perfect (Bridgit Pollpeter)
> 3. Istanbul, Turkey update (Newman, Robert)
> 4. Re: Past simple and perfect (loristay)
> 5. Re: Past simple and perfect (Alan)
> 6. Re: Istanbul, Turkey update (Donna Hill)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:32:52 -0500
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: writers division <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [stylist] Addressing echo location
> Message-ID: <SNT136-w15308937780D988C079624C4D70 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hey list,
>
>
>
> anyone who uses a cane or dog do use audio cues. We are taught to rely on sound rather than sight. I have also noticed since I lost most my vision that I can often tell when an object is in fromt of me or near me. I believe this is just our other senses kicking in and providing information in a non-visual way.
>
>
>
> Echo location is different than a straight forward audio cue though. Jewel provided a wonderful and detailed description of echo location. It is a complex and unique phenomanon that I do not fully understand. I was always under the impression that echo location can be taught, but according to Jewel, it seems more like some quality a blind person possesses.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I say all this to explain that echo location is different than audio cues and other ways in which the average blind person finds information. Structured Discovery and echo location are two ifferent methods.
>
>
>
> Bridgit
>
> > From: stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 9
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:00:09 -0500
> >
> > Send stylist mailing list submissions to
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> >
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> > stylist-owner at nfbnet.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of stylist digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Introduction of a New Writer (Donna Hill)
> > 2. Past Tense Usage Question (Neil Butters)
> > 3. Writing Prompt for Anthology (Kerry Thompson)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:01:38 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Introduction of a New Writer
> > Message-ID: <4C0E5B52.1000603 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > I think many of us use echolocation to some degree or other, even if we
> > don't think about it that way. As a person with RP, I never had night
> > vision, but had usable central vision in the day. It wasn't until I was
> > an adult living on my own that I noticed a difference in how I perceived
> > things when walking around the house. At night, I am aware of where
> > things are in a much more profound and direct way. There's a physical
> > sense of openness and obstacles/surroundings, but there's something else
> > going on. It's like there's a strong visual sense interpreting things
> > via a dark light. I'm much more accurate in the dark than in the daytime
> > when, even now with no usable vision, I still have light perception.
> > Donna
> >
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >
> >
> > On 6/7/2010 7:55 PM, loristay wrote:
> > > I do know David has pretty good "facial vision" and is excellent at interpreting echoes from his cane tip. He sometimes snaps his fingers inside to see what is around him. But as for going without his cane, he won't.
> > >
> > > We went to a convention once, and David left his cane home, thinking he could depend on me. But I was new to NFB at the time and didn't know what was going on. I went out with another sighted wife to see the ice follies. I totally forgot he didn't have his cane. He thought he could function without it, and nearly knocked into a waiter wheeling a wedding cake down the hall.
> > >
> > > Ever since then, he packs an extra cane when we go to conventions--and I don't leave the sessions any more. Echolocation or not.
> > > Lori
> > > On Jun 7, 2010, at 7:11:16 PM, "Jewel S."<herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: "Jewel S."<herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [stylist] Introduction of a New Writer
> > > Date: June 7, 2010 7:11:16 PM EDT
> > > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > > Echolocation is a complex phenomenon. What you feel through your cane
> > > is kinda like echolocation, but it has more to do with extended touch
> > > through the hand and arm. Echolocation is often done with the click of
> > > the tongue, a clicker (like those used in clicker training of dogs),
> > > or even just footsteps. Ancient monks used a vibrating chant to find
> > > their way in underground tunnels where there was no light. Bats use
> > > echolocation, and dolphins and whales use a similar phenomenon called
> > > sonar.
> > >
> > > Echolocation is also often called "facial vision" because many who
> > > have the ability to use echolocation in navigation as a "feeling" on
> > > their face that lets them know what and where certain things are based
> > > on how far the echo goes out, how spread out it goes, etc.
> > >
> > > Imagine this: A boy in California who used echolocation exclusively
> > > (he refused to use a white cane) could tell you whether the object in
> > > front of him was a car, truck, or van, based on how far the echoing
> > > went, how high it went, and such. He could distinguish between trees
> > > and people, bushes and trash bins, and many other objects. He knew
> > > instantly when he came to a curb (he was an avid roller blader and
> > > cyclist), and could tell you how many steps were in front of him and
> > > how deep they were. In an experiment, he was asked to tell how big an
> > > object was in front of him. Without touching the object, he clicked
> > > his way up and down, side to side, around and around the object, and
> > > was able to give exact dimensions and even gave a guess as to what it
> > > was. And he was right! (it was a half-gallon milk carton). He could
> > > distinguish shapes (such as a round versus an octangonal sign), and
> > > see odd shapes, such as a soccer net).
> > >
> > > With echolocation, a person can navigate the world without the use of
> > > cane, guide dog, or a sighted guide. Echolocation allows for a
> > > different way of seeing and describing objects. A blind person using
> > > echolocation would not describe a building as being "a dull red brick
> > > building" but rather "a tall, brick building with wooden doors and
> > > plastic windows" (the echolocator wouldn't see the colour of the
> > > building, but rather the approximate shape and the materials the
> > > object is made of). Art in a world of echolocator might be created out
> > > of mavious materials in shapes, creating, for example, the "feel" of a
> > > car or a person and a dog (which would "feel" differently).
> > >
> > > But, having not actually learned echolocation, I don't know how brick
> > > "feels" in echoes...or how a dog "feels" different from, say, a fur
> > > coat on a child...see what I mean?
> > >
> > > ~Jewel
> > >
> > > On 6/7/10, loristay<loristay at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Is echolocation related to being aware of where you are via echoes from the
> > >> cane tip? How about from just feeling the presence of something with your
> > >> forehead? (That's what my husband does!)
> > >> Lori
> > >> On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:55:02 PM, "Jewel S."<herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From: "Jewel S."<herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [stylist] Introduction of a New Writer
> > >> Date: June 7, 2010 12:55:02 PM EDT
> > >> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List"<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > >> Hey Helene,
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for the belated welcome. I totally understand. I am soooo
> > >> very busy lately. I don't recall a group called "Fight It" but that
> > >> doesn't mean I wasn't on there...I have a very bad long-term memory;
> > >> can't remember last month, let alone years ago. What is the group
> > >> about?
> > >>
> > >> Your book sounds very interesting; I love dragons! When I have the
> > >> time, I'll certainly look it up. The story about the blind world is
> > >> proving so very difficult to write, because I have never experienced
> > >> echolocation personally, nor will most of my writers, so I have to do
> > >> a lot of research on the subject before I can really describe it to
> > >> the reader. But it is a concept I really love, and I doubt it will
> > >> fade into nothingness. I am hoping to talk to Dr. Kiesh in the future
> > >> sometime to learn about echolocation from him, as he is one of the
> > >> most well-known teachers of the not-well-known sense of location via
> > >> clicks.
> > >>
> > >> ~Jewel
> > >>
> > >> On 6/5/10, helene ryles<dreamavdb at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> hi jewel,
> > >>>
> > >>> welcome to the list. sorry it's taken me such a while to welcome you
> > >>> ut i am not very active at present. i find your stories really
> > >>> interesting. particularly the last one about the blind world where
> > >>> sighted people arae differant. i also write fantasy. part of my book
> > >>> trials of an honorary dragon can be found in the archieves if you are
> > >>> interested enough to dig it out. although i am planning to work on
> > >>> it later on. it is set in a country called nazdonia which is run by
> > >>> dragons whicho think that humans should be airborne like them. there
> > >>> are many disabled characters in my book
> > >>>
> > >>> anyway i also vaguely remember your name from another list you used to
> > >>> subscribe to a few years back called fight it. are you the same jewel
> > >>> or have i got you mixed up with someone else.
> > >>> helene
> > >>>
> > >>> On 22/04/2010, James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR<n6yr at sunflower.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> welcome to our list Jewel.
> > >>>> jc
> > >>>>
> > >>>> At 04:42 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you for the welcome. ~Jewel
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 4/22/10, Judith Bron<jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Jewel, Your writing sounds wonderful. I think when most of us write,
> > >>>>>> our
> > >>>>>> own conflicts enter into whatever format we are writing in. Welcome to
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>> list, Judith
> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>>> From: "Jewel S."<herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> To:<stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:55 PM
> > >>>>>> Subject: [stylist] Introduction of a New Writer
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Some of you likely know me from some of the other listservs...I seem
> > >>>>>>> to be everywhere these days, eh? *grin* So, I'll only give a short
> > >>>>>>> introduction, and one about what brings me to this listserv.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My name is Jewel. I am 25 years old, and live in Raleigh, NC. I am a
> > >>>>>>> member of the Raleigh chapter of the NFB, as well as the North
> > >>>>>>> Carolina Association of Blind Students. I am a research geek, loving
> > >>>>>>> to write about things I research about. So, that brings me to why I'm
> > >>>>>>> here.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I write many different things. Lately, I've been doing a lot on my
> > >>>>>>> blog, Treasure Chest for the Blind (found at
> > >>>>>>> <http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com>), a blog about resources for
> > >>>>>>> blind people, such as alternate screenreaders like NVDA, sources of
> > >>>>>>> e-books, such as NLS' BARD, RFBD, and there will be one soon about
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> Internet Archives, software (games, business tools, home tools, and
> > >>>>>>> much more), and anything else I think people will find of use. It's
> > >>>>>>> really more of a way to allow me to share with other all the amazing
> > >>>>>>> things I have found on the Internet and out in the world, and also a
> > >>>>>>> way for me to write often.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Beyond the blog writing, I also write for my local chapter's
> > >>>>>>> newsletter. My article each month will be a Member Profile. I have
> > >>>>>>> written so far, that was supposed to be in last month's, but was left
> > >>>>>>> out, and will be in this month's newsletter. I've just started doing
> > >>>>>>> this, and am very much enjoying the phone interview process of
> > >>>>>>> learning about the members of my home chapter.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I have also written a lot of poetry. Some of it is crap, but some of
> > >>>>>>> it is not half bad. Much of it can be found at poetry.com under
> > >>>>>>> "Amber
> > >>>>>>> Gaspard," my maiden name. Some of it is quite depressing, poetry
> > >>>>>>> written in my childhood, being raised by an emotionally, verbally,
> > >>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>> occassionally physically abusive mother. I have written poetry about
> > >>>>>>> wanting to destroy a mirror and cut myself with it, about how the
> > >>>>>>> tracks on my arms are reminders of my past, and descriptives of the
> > >>>>>>> verbal abuse. This was a sort of therapy for myself. Some of my
> > >>>>>>> poetry
> > >>>>>>> is more upbeat, however, like descriptives of nature much like
> > >>>>>>> haikus,
> > >>>>>>> and medieval-style poetry about books, reading, and other stuff.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Finally, I have written a few short stories that went nowhere, but
> > >>>>>>> have two books that have been slowly developing over time. The first
> > >>>>>>> is a fantasy about a half-troll child searching for her past after
> > >>>>>>> learning that her mother never knew how she came to be, and her
> > >>>>>>> search
> > >>>>>>> for herself. She really is searching for herself, trying to find
> > >>>>>>> where
> > >>>>>>> she fits in between two different worlds (troll and human), neither
> > >>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> which will accept her. The story is sorta a fantasy adopted-child
> > >>>>>>> story, and a few friends who were adopted said they can really relate
> > >>>>>>> to the story.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The other that has developed over time is a fantasy mystery. Erica is
> > >>>>>>> a young girl who has, for as far back as she can remember, had the
> > >>>>>>> same dream every night, of an old man at a well. As the story
> > >>>>>>> progresses, you learn more about what this dream is (or do you?), and
> > >>>>>>> the story is about Erica trying to understand who she is, what this
> > >>>>>>> dream means to her life, and how it has shaped her entire being.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The first book has been thus far called Unknown Past, and the second
> > >>>>>>> has thus far been called simply "The Well" The first is pure fantasy;
> > >>>>>>> however, the second is loosely based (at least at the beginning) on
> > >>>>>>> my
> > >>>>>>> own life as an abused child and the dream that I often had as a child
> > >>>>>>> and my own search for the meaning of the dream.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I have also written a children's book about a rabbit who lives near a
> > >>>>>>> farm and decides one day to live on the farm, since the grass is
> > >>>>>>> always greener, and quickly learns that he is much better off being
> > >>>>>>> what he is, a rabbit, after trying to be a cat, dog, horse, chicken,
> > >>>>>>> and other farm animals. It is a story of acceptance of self, at the
> > >>>>>>> same time teaching about farm animals.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> One last story that is not developed much at all, but is only an idea
> > >>>>>>> is about a world where everyone is blind, where everyone has always
> > >>>>>>> been blind, where there is no such ting as humans seeing with eyes
> > >>>>>>> like people do in the real world. Instead of vision, people have
> > >>>>>>> echo,
> > >>>>>>> a form of echolocation that sometimes is seen in children who are
> > >>>>>>> born
> > >>>>>>> totally blind. But then a sighted child is born, then another, and
> > >>>>>>> schools for the echo-impaired (those who see with their eyes, but
> > >>>>>>> can't use echolocation) open, and the world slowly tries to help
> > >>>>>>> these
> > >>>>>>> poor impaired people who have eyes like animals. It is kinda a role
> > >>>>>>> reversal that has a subtle message of teaching sighted people what it
> > >>>>>>> is like to be a minority as blind people are.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> So, that's my stories and such, and I hope to share my writing, learn
> > >>>>>>> from others, and enjoy this list.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Later,
> > >>>>>>> ~Jewel
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
> > >>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > >>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> stylist mailing list
> > >>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Writers Division web site:
> > >>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > >>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> stylist mailing list
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> > >>>>>>
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Writers Division web site:
> > >>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > >>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> stylist mailing list
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Writers Division web site:
> > >>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > >>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> stylist mailing list
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> > >>>> stylist:
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> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Writers Division web site:
> > >>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>>
> > >>> stylist mailing list
> > >>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Writers Division web site:
> > >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>
> > >> stylist mailing list
> > >> stylist at nfbnet.org
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> > >> stylist:
> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/loristay%40aol.com
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Writers Division web site:
> > >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>
> > >> stylist mailing list
> > >> stylist at nfbnet.org
> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
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> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
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> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
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> > >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 11:46:09 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP1463DA052BE351712648F7E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about the past simple and past perfect tenses.
> >
> > I know when a story is told in the past simple, the past perfect is used for flashbacks or anything else that happened previously. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that seem to ignore that rule in flashback paragraphs. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, which is a short story written in the past simple.
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, cne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Kerry Thompson <uinen at earthlink.net>
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [stylist] Writing Prompt for Anthology
> > Message-ID:
> > <12344641.1276015997650.JavaMail.root at wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Hi friends,
> >
> > If I have posted the below already, please excuse me. I haven't been feeling well recently, and find myself somewhat confused.
> >
> > Chris Kuell suggests the following writing prompt for those who might be interested in writing for the anthology:
> >
> > Clear your mind and imagine that you are traveling in a car. Unfortunately, your car breaks down in front of an old house. The house is abandoned, the grass long or maybe covered with snow. Despite the outer disrepair, the inside of the house, aside from being dusty and smelling of time, is relatively intact. The generations and families that once resided there are gone.
> >
> > Write a piece of prose or poetry about a holiday that took place in that house. The holiday should be the one closest to your birthday. Try to incorporate as many senses as possible.
> >
> > He adds:
> >
> > Okay, just please encourage people to be creative, and not to take the prompt literally. Rather, use it as a springboard for your muse. Write something creative in the genre, style and form of your choice. The only elements are house, family, and holiday. I'd also add that if people would like constructive feedback, please say so and encourage members to give it. That way we not only get material for the anthology, but improved material for the anthology.
> >
> > Solidarity and Peace,
> > Kerry
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> >
> >
> > End of stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 9
> > **************************************
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:59:36 -0500
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: writers division <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [stylist] Past simple and perfect
> Message-ID: <SNT136-w6285E6C05567479B85AECC4D70 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>
> Dear list,
>
>
>
> There are rules that apply for all tenses. More is involved than how we feel the words should sound. A great style book to refer to is by White and Strunk. It is simple, but provides rules of grammar and style.
>
>
>
> I do not always explain things properly. Many have given good examples, but again, I point out there are specific rules for usage.
>
>
>
> Simple definition, we all get past tense: I walked to the store to find the flowers Annie liked.
>
> Past perfect places verbs to show that we are in the past, but talking about something even more in the past (yes, I know I am not using proper grammar here! *smile*)
>
> Annie had bought the flowers when she use to walk through the park.
>
>
>
> The first sentence is in the past, but the second shows something further away. Like a reminiscent. If you said Annie bought the flowers when walking through the park, the action is in that moment even thought it is past tense. Saying Annie had bought places the tense in a time not current. Like if I am in 1978, but talking about something in 1971. Is that clear as mud?
>
>
>
>
> And yes, it is possible to switch from these tenses from sentence to sentence as long as it makes sense. Here is an example from my own writing:
>
>
> Her mom pressed the call light and prepared for the inevitable wait. She stared at the wires and tubes that stuck all over her daughter. (it switches here because the mother is recalling something from the past even though the over-all tense is past) The main line sticking from her daughter?s protruding collar bone had taken an hour to put in. Her mom recalled the frustration of the nurse who attempted to glide the line through her daughter?s collapsed veins. Sweat had formed on the nurse?s brow and she had seemed ready to give up. The blood that spurted from her daughter?s vein had made her nauseous, but she had gripped the bed until she had almost passed out. Her daughter had laid there unable to cry from the dehydration that left her face hollow.
>
>
> Basically this is a way to identify the past when already in the past.
>
>
>
> Bridgit
>
> > From: stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 10
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:00:10 -0500
> >
> > Send stylist mailing list submissions to
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> >
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> > stylist-owner at nfbnet.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of stylist digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Neil Butters)
> > 2. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Angela Fowler)
> > 3. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Neil Butters)
> > 4. Re: Past Tense Usage Question (loristay)
> > 5. Re: Past Tense Usage Question (loristay)
> > 6. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Donna Hill)
> > 7. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Donna Hill)
> > 8. Fw: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into theUnited
> > States Association of Blind athletes (Judith Bron)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:06:28 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP34366E92E288C355340366E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs. Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or "he had allowed...?"
> >
> > Thanks for the help.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:50:52 -0700
> > From: "Angela Fowler" <fowlers at syix.com>
> > To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <88084C6062E24884A048297CB1406AC6 at AngelaPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > Angela
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that
> > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off;
> > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as
> > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but
> > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > "he had allowed...?"
> >
> > Thanks for the help.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:12:55 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP12D436DC4FC0FC43893E09E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > Hi Angela and Everybody,
> >
> > >From a grammar book I use:
> >
> > Past tense: I ate pizza last night.
> > Past perfect tense: I had eaten pizza just before you arrived.
> >
> > And it continued rather unhelpfully:
> >
> > If you think clearly about what you're trying to say, usually the choice of
> > verb tenses will be obvious.
> >
> > But as I said in my question, I've seen flashback paragraphs in which both
> > the past simple and perfect seem to have been used interchangeably.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Angela Fowler" <fowlers at syix.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:50 PM
> > To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> >
> > > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > > Angela
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know
> > > that
> > > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > > off;
> > > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy
> > > as
> > > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"
> > > but
> > > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > > "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/neil.butters%40sympatico.ca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:20:39 -0400
> > From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <2F323C67.DDBC.4FCF.8798.1D35A30BA514 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > The past perfect is used properly here. ?Its presence in the first sentence indicates when the action took place, that is, in the past of the past tense. ?Once you know when the action is taking place, you don't need the past perfect anymore. ?It gets intrusive after awhile.
> > Lori
> > On Jun 8, 2010, at 11:46:09 AM, "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Date: June 8, 2010 11:46:09 AM EDT
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about the past simple and past perfect tenses.
> >
> > I know when a story is told in the past simple, the past perfect is used for flashbacks or anything else that happened previously. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that seem to ignore that rule in flashback paragraphs. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, which is a short story written in the past simple.
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, cne?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/loristay%40aol.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:44:15 -0400
> > From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <78A94068.EFEC.49F1.8635.B2EE92518B39 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > On second review, the past perfect is indicated here in more than one sentence: ?Billy Boy and I were watching--is one. ?Another is I still had a hard time ... ?And the third is he'd always seemed, where he'd is an abbreviation for he had. ?But I do maintain that usually one will indicate via the past perfect that the scene is in the past (i.e. not in the present action), and that after that, it isn't as necessary to use the word "had."
> > Lori
> > On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:20:39 PM, loristay <loristay at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 17:08:40 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <4C0EB158.8080401 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Interesting question. I do this myself, but don't have a rule I can
> > assign to it. I hope there is one, because it sure does get wordy and
> > cumbersome if you are really supposed to use the past perfect every time.
> > Donna
> >
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >
> >
> > On 6/8/2010 1:06 PM, Neil Butters wrote:
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs. Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > > http://www.pctools.com/
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======
> > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > http://www.pctools.com/
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> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:25:21 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <4C0EC351.1000004 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Hi Angela,
> > The past and past perfect tenses give you a way of differentiating
> > between something that happened and something else that happened before
> > that point. "When I was six, we lived (past tense) in Palmer township.
> > We had moved (past perfect) there when I was three." I don't remember
> > specifically calling it "simple" though that's just as good a word as any.
> >
> > If you are talking about the errands you did yesterday, you might say,
> > "I went to the store yesterday. I had already been to the doctor's."
> >
> > There's also a future perfect tense to indicate a point in the future
> > when something is already in the past, "By next Tuesday, I will have
> > talked to several people about this."
> >
> > And, of course, there is a present perfect, "I have taken care of that."
> > "I have talked to him about this." "He has been a member of NFB for ten
> > years." This is the one which confuses me the most. After all, it's
> > present tense but clearly all of the actions were at least initiated in
> > the past. The best way I can describe the connection here is that the
> > present perfect is used to suggest an ongoing state. It's easy to see it
> > in the sentence in which the man has been a member for ten years. The
> > other sentences present me with a bit more of a challenge to explain.
> > Think of the difference in these sentences: I took care of that
> > problem." "I have taken care of that problem." " Both sentences are
> > correct and essentially have the same meaning. Saying it in the past
> > tense, however, has a sense of fait accompli. Using the present perfect
> > suggests to me that there is still a sense of basking in the
> > accomplishment. With the sentences "I have talked to him about that" and
> > it's simple past cousin "I talked to him about that," the first one
> > conjures up images of an ongoing frustration. "John is having problems
> > with Mark's drinking, and I have talked to Mark about that." It's like
> > the futility is still hanging in the air. If I say, "John is having
> > problems with Marks drinking, I talked to Mark about that," I get the
> > sense that the speaker has either washed their hands of the matter or
> > believes their talk made a difference.
> >
> > These little nuances of meaning and inference -- my interpretation is
> > probably not the same as someone elses's -- are IMO what makes it so
> > challenging to communicate. When we talk face to face or on the phone,
> > our tone of voice, inflection and body language help sort out the
> > subtleties, but the written word stands without such helpers.
> >
> > Perhaps someone else will weigh in on this.
> >
> > In all three perfect tenses, some form of "to have" is used in
> > conjunction with the past participle of a verb.
> > HTH,
> > Donna
> >
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >
> >
> > On 6/8/2010 1:50 PM, Angela Fowler wrote:
> > > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > > Angela
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > > To:stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that
> > > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off;
> > > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as
> > > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but
> > > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > > "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======
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> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:26:24 -0400
> > From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> > To: LoriStay at aol.com
> > Cc: Stylist <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Fw: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into
> > theUnited States Association of Blind athletes
> > Message-ID: <000701cb07d7$5bbe43b0$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Great article. Enjoy, JB
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Nancy Lynn
> > To: ACB List ; ccb list ; Mikes Mess List
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 8:52 AM
> > Subject: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into theUnited States Association of Blind athletes
> >
> >
> > Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into the United States Association of Blind
> > Athletes Hall of Fame.
> > June 8, 2010
> > Longtime educator inducted into Blind Athletes Hall of Fame
> > By Kenton Brooks
> > Phoenix Sports Writer
> > - Stephen Kearney remembers being curious on that first day when he stepped onto
> > the campus for his first day to work at the Oklahoma School for the Blind in Muskogee.
> > "I always wondered where they kept the dogs," he said. "I wanted to know how a guide
> > dog works."
> > But there were no dogs for the children because of their blindness.
> > That day, though, started an association with blind athletes that lasted 38 years
> > until his retirement in 2009. Along the way, he' s traveled around the world to such
> > places such as Greece and China in coaching and working with these special athletes.
> > It also took him to the University of Delaware this past weekend to receive induction
> > into the United States Association of Blind Athletes Hall of Fame. He was the head
> > coach of the gold medal-winning goalball team in the 1984 Paralympics in New York.
> > The Paralympics, held once every four years and two weeks after the Olympics, are
> > multi-sport events for athletes with physical disabilities including blindness. Goalball
> > is a sport where three-member teams try to roll a ball equipped with bells into an
> > opposing team's net.
> > He's had other duties in working at the Paralympics. But coaching that 1984 goalball
> > team to a gold medal will always remain a highlight for Kearney.
> > No other men's team from USA has won gold in the sport since.
> > Oklahoma City native John Cutliff was on the six-member squad that also included
> > athletes from Missouri, Illinois, New Mexico, Kentucky and New Jersey.
> > "I picked the best guys from other teams," the 61-year-old Kearney recalled.
> > Kearney's team rallied from early losses and went through the loser's bracket to
> > beat Egypt for the gold medal in 1984.
> > "Because of the all effort we put in, it was exciting for the guys to accomplish
> > their goal," he said. "It was a great experience."
> > A Tuisa native, Kearney didn't need or have any special training or education to
> > work with blind athletes.
> > "My name was put in with 10 other people at the same time at the (Northeastern State
> > University) placement office," he said. "Our packets were sent to the (School for
> > the Blind) as they were looking to start the recreation program. I was the first
> > resume and V.R. Carter (then the superintendent of the school) called and wanted
> > to know if I wanted a job. I gave myself a half of the year.
> > "I was lucky to be the first on the list. I have no idea why I was. It was an opportunity
> > to do something positive and fun with kids who had disabilities. There wasn't the
> > stress these other coaches get into or how they move school to school. And 38 years
> > later, here I am."
> > Kearney learned about patience over those 38 years.
> > "If you've got vision, you can learn by sight but with these kids, you've got to
> > go through the motions and explain it to them," he said. "Once they get it, it's
> > a pretty neat accomplishment to see them being able to do things and react like anyone
> > else."
> > Kearney, who majored in physical education and business, eventually became the school's
> > wrestling coach.
> > "I didn't know I would go in this direction," he said. "If it hadn't been for the
> > School for the Blind, I wouldn't have been able to travel all over the world like
> > I have. It's been an unique deal, a fun deal. I just happened to be in the right
> > spot. The School for the Blind has been very good to me."
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> >
> >
> > End of stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 10
> > ***************************************
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:15:53 -0500
> From: "Newman, Robert" <robert.newman at nebraska.gov>
> To: "stylist at nfbnet.org" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [stylist] Istanbul, Turkey update
> Message-ID:
> <035C5B0A5D7CF446BCE9916BDB0AAB4F2023544FFE at STNEMAIL01.stone.ne.gov>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>
> Robert Leslie Newman
> NFB Writers' Division President
> Division Website- http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> Personal Website- Http://www.thoughtprovoker.infoHI you all, I am sitting out on my front porch, Cabin 22. Today was a shortish day, 13 hours. Yestertday was 14 and Monday was 15.5. (We start off the day at 7:00 AM by having coffie in Capin 21 and laying out the days schedule; each day brings changes and so the next day's schedule always needs adjustments.
>
> One big change in today's lineup was squeezing in a 3 hour visit to a new Traffic Park; a newly created training/educational symulation of various types of tipical street crossings, streets and roads; with a tunnel, a round-about, a petdestrion bridge, a hospital, railroad crossing, sidewalks, audible traffic signnal, and more. It is a new effort to teach children (disabled and non-disabled) to travel the streets of Istanbul in full awearness and safty )for both the people walking and driving). And believe it or not, it was all scaled to children! The buildings were kid size; you, or I could stand up in them, but had to duck to get in the door.And -- there were even electric vehicles that you can drive on the streets, to learn proper management of driving on the streets and honoring the walker. (Yeah, I did drive one, it was like a 4 wheeled open sided car with bycicle handlebars instead of a steeringwheel,using my left hand to steer and work the gas lever and had my cane out feeling for the curbs; the speed was less than a walking speed.) The project mannager had learned we were in town and invited us to come and check out the place and to try and get us to advise them as to how to train blind children in this park. We did make some obsurvations, but felt that it needed mor time and talked him into hiring one of our students!
>
> Two days ago, it was a visit from the Red Cressent(like our Red Cross). This guy wanted our advice on the training of disabled trainees in a new program to put out trained customer service reps to be employed in call centers for the Red Cressent.
>
>
>
> Here is something that is culture shocking- we have 33 students- all but 4 are teachers of the blind. 2 of these non-teachers are blind consumers. One of these is a 33 year old woman. She came to us with no blindness skills what so ever- never used a cane, only went to elementary school, did not know Braille, was not allowed to cook or clean or care for children or -- this lady is anice person, with no life. she lives with her parents. We started training with her on Monday of the first week and worked with her in all our skill areas. At first she was timmid and scared, but game.On Saturday we worked a half day and the students were off on Sunday. Their assignment was to write a pargraphabout what they learn during the first week. On Monday during our evening seminar (8:30-10:30 PM) she shared her paragraph (She spoke it, not having enough Braille yet to write and read it. She said- "All these years, they lyed to me. Everyone told me I could not do anything, because I am blind. And here I was given nothing but encouragement and I have learned many new skills. I can walk by myself, I can cook. I can learn to read and write Braille. And I can care for a baby (our local cordinator has a 2 month old boy and taught this woman to change him, feed him and care for him)." And yu all know what!? This lady is the sister of one of our first year students, a guy that assisted us on our second training, he is blind, a college grad and works for a privat rehab service and he never even told us he had a older sister that was blind. Woo, wait until she gets home! (Today we left the camp and walked along the Marmera Sea and went about a mile to a Chi House (a tea house). I lead and guess who kept right up with me!?! This newly formed, blossuming blind woman.
>
> We have 2 more full days. tommorrow will be another long one- classes until eight and then it is music and dancing. (These peple are wild dancers and love to sing; you get them working or walking and you'll find them singing. And well, Friday will be yet another super long one- At the last of the day- starting at 7:30 PM is the closing cermony and they've hooked the opening of the Camp for summer to our's. They say we can expect 600 people- lots of polititions and others. (Our ceremony was going to be like 300 people- interesting, our program has gotten the attention of the President of Turkey and was placed on one of his watch lists and so where our earlier 2 closings had some local dignitaries (maybe 50 people), this one will have state folks here too.
>
> Well, it is going on 11:00 PM Turkey time and we get up at 6:00 and do our staff meeting at 7:00. Enough for now.
>
> I'll be home next week this time.
>
> Later
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 20:25:30 -0400
> From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Past simple and perfect
> Message-ID: <C3E4E3A4.D56B.4D11.A436.247DAA7AF1DE at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-13"
>
> The book you want is "The Elements of Style," by Strunk and White. ?I believe it is available from NLS .
> Lori
>
> On Jun 9, 2010, at 3:59:36 PM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [stylist] Past simple and perfect
> Date: June 9, 2010 3:59:36 PM EDT
> To: "writers division" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>
> Dear list,
>
>
>
> There are rules that apply for all tenses. More is involved than how we feel the words should sound. A great style book to refer to is by White and Strunk. It is simple, but provides rules of grammar and style.
>
>
>
> I do not always explain things properly. Many have given good examples, but again, I point out there are specific rules for usage.
>
>
>
> Simple definition, we all get past tense: I walked to the store to find the flowers Annie liked.
>
> Past perfect places verbs to show that we are in the past, but talking about something even more in the past (yes, I know I am not using proper grammar here! *smile*)
>
> Annie had bought the flowers when she use to walk through the park.
>
>
>
> The first sentence is in the past, but the second shows something further away. Like a reminiscent. If you said Annie bought the flowers when walking through the park, the action is in that moment even thought it is past tense. Saying Annie had bought places the tense in a time not current. Like if I am in 1978, but talking about something in 1971. Is that clear as mud?
>
>
>
>
> And yes, it is possible to switch from these tenses from sentence to sentence as long as it makes sense. Here is an example from my own writing:
>
>
> Her mom pressed the call light and prepared for the inevitable wait. She stared at the wires and tubes that stuck all over her daughter. (it switches here because the mother is recalling something from the past even though the over-all tense is past) The main line sticking from her daughter?s protruding collar bone had taken an hour to put in. Her mom recalled the frustration of the nurse who attempted to glide the line through her daughter?s collapsed veins. Sweat had formed on the nurse?s brow and she had seemed ready to give up. The blood that spurted from her daughter?s vein had made her nauseous, but she had gripped the bed until she had almost passed out. Her daughter had laid there unable to cry from the dehydration that left her face hollow.
>
>
> Basically this is a way to identify the past when already in the past.
>
>
>
> Bridgit
>
> > From: stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 10
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:00:10 -0500
> >?
> > Send stylist mailing list submissions to
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> >?
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> >?
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > stylist-owner at nfbnet.org
> >?
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of stylist digest..."
> >?
> >?
> > Today's Topics:
> >?
> > 1. Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Neil Butters)
> > 2. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Angela Fowler)
> > 3. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Neil Butters)
> > 4. Re: Past Tense Usage Question (loristay)
> > 5. Re: Past Tense Usage Question (loristay)
> > 6. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Donna Hill)
> > 7. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Donna Hill)
> > 8. Fw: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into theUnited
> > States Association of Blind athletes (Judith Bron)
> >?
> >?
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:06:28 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP34366E92E288C355340366E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >?
> > Hello All,
> >?
> > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs. Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> >?
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >?
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or "he had allowed...?"
> >?
> > Thanks for the help.
> >?
> > Neil
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:50:52 -0700
> > From: "Angela Fowler" <fowlers at syix.com>
> > To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <88084C6062E24884A048297CB1406AC6 at AngelaPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >?
> > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two??
> > Angela
> >?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> >?
> > Hello All,
> >?
> > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that
> > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> >?
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off;
> > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as
> > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >?
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but
> > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > "he had allowed...?"
> >?
> > Thanks for the help.
> >?
> > Neil
> >?
> >?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >?
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:12:55 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP12D436DC4FC0FC43893E09E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >?
> > Hi Angela and Everybody,
> >?
> > >From a grammar book I use:
> >?
> > Past tense: I ate pizza last night.
> > Past perfect tense: I had eaten pizza just before you arrived.
> >?
> > And it continued rather unhelpfully:
> >?
> > If you think clearly about what you're trying to say, usually the choice of?
> > verb tenses will be obvious.
> >?
> > But as I said in my question, I've seen flashback paragraphs in which both?
> > the past simple and perfect seem to have been used interchangeably.
> >?
> > Neil
> >?
> >?
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Angela Fowler" <fowlers at syix.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:50 PM
> > To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> >?
> > > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > > Angela
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know?
> > > that
> > > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me?
> > > off;
> > > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy?
> > > as
> > > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"?
> > > but
> > > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > > "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for?
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/neil.butters%40sympatico.ca
> > >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:20:39 -0400
> > From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <2F323C67.DDBC.4FCF.8798.1D35A30BA514 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >?
> > The past perfect is used properly here. ?Its presence in the first sentence indicates when the action took place, that is, in the past of the past tense. ?Once you know when the action is taking place, you don't need the past perfect anymore. ?It gets intrusive after awhile.
> > Lori
> > On Jun 8, 2010, at 11:46:09 AM, "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >?
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Date: June 8, 2010 11:46:09 AM EDT
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Hello All,
> >?
> > I have a question about the past simple and past perfect tenses.
> >?
> > I know when a story is told in the past simple, the past perfect is used for flashbacks or anything else that happened previously. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that seem to ignore that rule in flashback paragraphs. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, which is a short story written in the past simple.
> >?
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >?
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, cne?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >?
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/loristay%40aol.com
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:44:15 -0400
> > From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <78A94068.EFEC.49F1.8635.B2EE92518B39 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >?
> > On second review, the past perfect is indicated here in more than one sentence: ?Billy Boy and I were watching--is one. ?Another is I still had a hard time ... ?And the third is he'd always seemed, where he'd is an abbreviation for he had. ?But I do maintain that usually one will indicate via the past perfect that the scene is in the past (i.e. not in the present action), and that after that, it isn't as necessary to use the word "had."
> > Lori
> > On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:20:39 PM, loristay <loristay at aol.com> wrote:
> >?
> >?
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 17:08:40 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <4C0EB158.8080401 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >?
> > Interesting question. I do this myself, but don't have a rule I can?
> > assign to it. I hope there is one, because it sure does get wordy and?
> > cumbersome if you are really supposed to use the past perfect every time.
> > Donna
> >?
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >?
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >?
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >?
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >?
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >?
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >?
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >?
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >?
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >?
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >?
> >?
> > On 6/8/2010 1:06 PM, Neil Butters wrote:
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs. Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off; he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > > http://www.pctools.com/
> > > =======
> > >
> > >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > =======
> > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > http://www.pctools.com/
> > =======
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:25:21 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <4C0EC351.1000004 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >?
> > Hi Angela,
> > The past and past perfect tenses give you a way of differentiating?
> > between something that happened and something else that happened before?
> > that point. "When I was six, we lived (past tense) in Palmer township.?
> > We had moved (past perfect) there when I was three." I don't remember?
> > specifically calling it "simple" though that's just as good a word as any.
> >?
> > If you are talking about the errands you did yesterday, you might say,?
> > "I went to the store yesterday. I had already been to the doctor's."
> >?
> > There's also a future perfect tense to indicate a point in the future?
> > when something is already in the past, "By next Tuesday, I will have?
> > talked to several people about this."
> >?
> > And, of course, there is a present perfect, "I have taken care of that."?
> > "I have talked to him about this." "He has been a member of NFB for ten?
> > years." This is the one which confuses me the most. After all, it's?
> > present tense but clearly all of the actions were at least initiated in?
> > the past. The best way I can describe the connection here is that the?
> > present perfect is used to suggest an ongoing state. It's easy to see it?
> > in the sentence in which the man has been a member for ten years. The?
> > other sentences present me with a bit more of a challenge to explain.?
> > Think of the difference in these sentences: I took care of that?
> > problem." "I have taken care of that problem." " Both sentences are?
> > correct and essentially have the same meaning. Saying it in the past?
> > tense, however, has a sense of fait accompli. Using the present perfect?
> > suggests to me that there is still a sense of basking in the?
> > accomplishment. With the sentences "I have talked to him about that" and?
> > it's simple past cousin "I talked to him about that," the first one?
> > conjures up images of an ongoing frustration. "John is having problems?
> > with Mark's drinking, and I have talked to Mark about that." It's like?
> > the futility is still hanging in the air. If I say, "John is having?
> > problems with Marks drinking, I talked to Mark about that," I get the?
> > sense that the speaker has either washed their hands of the matter or?
> > believes their talk made a difference.
> >?
> > These little nuances of meaning and inference -- my interpretation is?
> > probably not the same as someone elses's -- are IMO what makes it so?
> > challenging to communicate. When we talk face to face or on the phone,?
> > our tone of voice, inflection and body language help sort out the?
> > subtleties, but the written word stands without such helpers.
> >?
> > Perhaps someone else will weigh in on this.
> >?
> > In all three perfect tenses, some form of "to have" is used in?
> > conjunction with the past participle of a verb.
> > HTH,
> > Donna
> >?
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >?
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >?
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >?
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >?
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >?
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >?
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >?
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >?
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >?
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >?
> >?
> > On 6/8/2010 1:50 PM, Angela Fowler wrote:
> > > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > > Angela
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > > To:stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know that
> > > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me off;
> > > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as
> > > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed," but
> > > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > > "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > > http://www.pctools.com/
> > > =======
> > >
> > >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > =======
> > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > http://www.pctools.com/
> > =======
> >?
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:26:24 -0400
> > From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> > To: LoriStay at aol.com
> > Cc: Stylist <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Fw: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into
> > theUnited States Association of Blind athletes
> > Message-ID: <000701cb07d7$5bbe43b0$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >?
> > Great article. Enjoy, JB
> > ----- Original Message -----?
> > From: Nancy Lynn?
> > To: ACB List ; ccb list ; Mikes Mess List?
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 8:52 AM
> > Subject: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into theUnited States Association of Blind athletes
> >?
> >?
> > Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into the United States Association of Blind
> > Athletes Hall of Fame.
> > June 8, 2010
> > Longtime educator inducted into Blind Athletes Hall of Fame
> > By Kenton Brooks
> > Phoenix Sports Writer
> > - Stephen Kearney remembers being curious on that first day when he stepped onto
> > the campus for his first day to work at the Oklahoma School for the Blind in Muskogee.
> > "I always wondered where they kept the dogs," he said. "I wanted to know how a guide
> > dog works."
> > But there were no dogs for the children because of their blindness.
> > That day, though, started an association with blind athletes that lasted 38 years
> > until his retirement in 2009. Along the way, he' s traveled around the world to such
> > places such as Greece and China in coaching and working with these special athletes.
> > It also took him to the University of Delaware this past weekend to receive induction
> > into the United States Association of Blind Athletes Hall of Fame. He was the head
> > coach of the gold medal-winning goalball team in the 1984 Paralympics in New York.
> > The Paralympics, held once every four years and two weeks after the Olympics, are
> > multi-sport events for athletes with physical disabilities including blindness. Goalball
> > is a sport where three-member teams try to roll a ball equipped with bells into an
> > opposing team's net.
> > He's had other duties in working at the Paralympics. But coaching that 1984 goalball
> > team to a gold medal will always remain a highlight for Kearney.
> > No other men's team from USA has won gold in the sport since.
> > Oklahoma City native John Cutliff was on the six-member squad that also included
> > athletes from Missouri, Illinois, New Mexico, Kentucky and New Jersey.
> > "I picked the best guys from other teams," the 61-year-old Kearney recalled.
> > Kearney's team rallied from early losses and went through the loser's bracket to
> > beat Egypt for the gold medal in 1984.
> > "Because of the all effort we put in, it was exciting for the guys to accomplish
> > their goal," he said. "It was a great experience."
> > A Tuisa native, Kearney didn't need or have any special training or education to
> > work with blind athletes.
> > "My name was put in with 10 other people at the same time at the (Northeastern State
> > University) placement office," he said. "Our packets were sent to the (School for
> > the Blind) as they were looking to start the recreation program. I was the first
> > resume and V.R. Carter (then the superintendent of the school) called and wanted
> > to know if I wanted a job. I gave myself a half of the year.
> > "I was lucky to be the first on the list. I have no idea why I was. It was an opportunity
> > to do something positive and fun with kids who had disabilities. There wasn't the
> > stress these other coaches get into or how they move school to school. And 38 years
> > later, here I am."
> > Kearney learned about patience over those 38 years.
> > "If you've got vision, you can learn by sight but with these kids, you've got to
> > go through the motions and explain it to them," he said. "Once they get it, it's
> > a pretty neat accomplishment to see them being able to do things and react like anyone
> > else."
> > Kearney, who majored in physical education and business, eventually became the school's
> > wrestling coach.
> > "I didn't know I would go in this direction," he said. "If it hadn't been for the
> > School for the Blind, I wouldn't have been able to travel all over the world like
> > I have. It's been an unique deal, a fun deal. I just happened to be in the right
> > spot. The School for the Blind has been very good to me."
> >?
> >?
> > ------------------------------
> >?
> > _______________________________________________
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> >?
> >?
> > End of stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 10
> > ***************************************
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 22:54:23 -0500
> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Past simple and perfect
> Message-ID: <EB18F81C969745CE95175D264ED015D2 at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-13";
> reply-type=original
>
> It is also available from RFB&D.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "loristay" <loristay at aol.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 7:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Past simple and perfect
>
>
> The book you want is "The Elements of Style," by Strunk and White. I believe
> it is available from NLS .
> Lori
>
> On Jun 9, 2010, at 3:59:36 PM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [stylist] Past simple and perfect
> Date: June 9, 2010 3:59:36 PM EDT
> To: "writers division" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>
> Dear list,
>
>
>
> There are rules that apply for all tenses. More is involved than how we feel
> the words should sound. A great style book to refer to is by White and
> Strunk. It is simple, but provides rules of grammar and style.
>
>
>
> I do not always explain things properly. Many have given good examples, but
> again, I point out there are specific rules for usage.
>
>
>
> Simple definition, we all get past tense: I walked to the store to find the
> flowers Annie liked.
>
> Past perfect places verbs to show that we are in the past, but talking about
> something even more in the past (yes, I know I am not using proper grammar
> here! *smile*)
>
> Annie had bought the flowers when she use to walk through the park.
>
>
>
> The first sentence is in the past, but the second shows something further
> away. Like a reminiscent. If you said Annie bought the flowers when walking
> through the park, the action is in that moment even thought it is past
> tense. Saying Annie had bought places the tense in a time not current. Like
> if I am in 1978, but talking about something in 1971. Is that clear as mud?
>
>
>
>
> And yes, it is possible to switch from these tenses from sentence to
> sentence as long as it makes sense. Here is an example from my own writing:
>
>
> Her mom pressed the call light and prepared for the inevitable wait. She
> stared at the wires and tubes that stuck all over her daughter. (it switches
> here because the mother is recalling something from the past even though the
> over-all tense is past) The main line sticking from her daughter?s
> protruding collar bone had taken an hour to put in. Her mom recalled the
> frustration of the nurse who attempted to glide the line through her
> daughter?s collapsed veins. Sweat had formed on the nurse?s brow and she had
> seemed ready to give up. The blood that spurted from her daughter?s vein had
> made her nauseous, but she had gripped the bed until she had almost passed
> out. Her daughter had laid there unable to cry from the dehydration that
> left her face hollow.
>
>
> Basically this is a way to identify the past when already in the past.
>
>
>
> Bridgit
>
> > From: stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 10
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:00:10 -0500
> >
> > Send stylist mailing list submissions to
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > stylist-request at nfbnet.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > stylist-owner at nfbnet.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of stylist digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Neil Butters)
> > 2. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Angela Fowler)
> > 3. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Neil Butters)
> > 4. Re: Past Tense Usage Question (loristay)
> > 5. Re: Past Tense Usage Question (loristay)
> > 6. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Donna Hill)
> > 7. Re: Past Simple and Perfect Usage (Donna Hill)
> > 8. Fw: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into theUnited
> > States Association of Blind athletes (Judith Bron)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:06:28 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP34366E92E288C355340366E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know
> > that when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else
> > that took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many
> > stories told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback
> > paragraphs. Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in
> > the same paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event.
> > Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the
> > past simple:
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > off; he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy
> > Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"
> > but not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had
> > watched...?" Or "he had allowed...?"
> >
> > Thanks for the help.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:50:52 -0700
> > From: "Angela Fowler" <fowlers at syix.com>
> > To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <88084C6062E24884A048297CB1406AC6 at AngelaPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past perfect
> > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > Angela
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know
> > that
> > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else that
> > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > off;
> > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy
> > as
> > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"
> > but
> > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?" Or
> > "he had allowed...?"
> >
> > Thanks for the help.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:12:55 -0400
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP12D436DC4FC0FC43893E09E2D60 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > Hi Angela and Everybody,
> >
> > >From a grammar book I use:
> >
> > Past tense: I ate pizza last night.
> > Past perfect tense: I had eaten pizza just before you arrived.
> >
> > And it continued rather unhelpfully:
> >
> > If you think clearly about what you're trying to say, usually the choice
> > of
> > verb tenses will be obvious.
> >
> > But as I said in my question, I've seen flashback paragraphs in which both
> > the past simple and perfect seem to have been used interchangeably.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Angela Fowler" <fowlers at syix.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:50 PM
> > To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> >
> > > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past
> > > perfect
> > > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > > Angela
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know
> > > that
> > > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else
> > > that
> > > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were
> > > watching
> > > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > > off;
> > > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy
> > > Boy
> > > as
> > > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"
> > > but
> > > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?"
> > > Or
> > > "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > > <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > > <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/neil.butters%40sympatico.ca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:20:39 -0400
> > From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <2F323C67.DDBC.4FCF.8798.1D35A30BA514 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > The past perfect is used properly here. ?Its presence in the first
> > sentence indicates when the action took place, that is, in the past of the
> > past tense. ?Once you know when the action is taking place, you don't need
> > the past perfect anymore. ?It gets intrusive after awhile.
> > Lori
> > On Jun 8, 2010, at 11:46:09 AM, "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > From: "Neil Butters" <neil.butters at sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Date: June 8, 2010 11:46:09 AM EDT
> > To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have a question about the past simple and past perfect tenses.
> >
> > I know when a story is told in the past simple, the past perfect is used
> > for flashbacks or anything else that happened previously. But I have read
> > many stories told in the past simple that seem to ignore that rule in
> > flashback paragraphs. Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt,
> > which is a short story written in the past simple.
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as
> > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, cne?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/loristay%40aol.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:44:15 -0400
> > From: loristay <loristay at aol.com>
> > To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Tense Usage Question
> > Message-ID: <78A94068.EFEC.49F1.8635.B2EE92518B39 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > On second review, the past perfect is indicated here in more than one
> > sentence: ?Billy Boy and I were watching--is one. ?Another is I still had
> > a hard time ... ?And the third is he'd always seemed, where he'd is an
> > abbreviation for he had. ?But I do maintain that usually one will indicate
> > via the past perfect that the scene is in the past (i.e. not in the
> > present action), and that after that, it isn't as necessary to use the
> > word "had."
> > Lori
> > On Jun 8, 2010, at 3:20:39 PM, loristay <loristay at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were watching
> > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > off; he
> > allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy Boy as
> > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 17:08:40 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <4C0EB158.8080401 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Interesting question. I do this myself, but don't have a rule I can
> > assign to it. I hope there is one, because it sure does get wordy and
> > cumbersome if you are really supposed to use the past perfect every time.
> > Donna
> >
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >
> >
> > On 6/8/2010 1:06 PM, Neil Butters wrote:
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know
> > > that when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything
> > > else that took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read
> > > many stories told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback
> > > paragraphs. Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in
> > > the same paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event.
> > > Here is an example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the
> > > past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were
> > > watching them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He
> > > ran me off; he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time
> > > picturing Billy Boy as one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a
> > > clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"
> > > but not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had
> > > watched...?" Or "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > > http://www.pctools.com/
> > > =======
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======
> > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > http://www.pctools.com/
> > =======
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:25:21 -0400
> > From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> > To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > Message-ID: <4C0EC351.1000004 at epix.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Hi Angela,
> > The past and past perfect tenses give you a way of differentiating
> > between something that happened and something else that happened before
> > that point. "When I was six, we lived (past tense) in Palmer township.
> > We had moved (past perfect) there when I was three." I don't remember
> > specifically calling it "simple" though that's just as good a word as any.
> >
> > If you are talking about the errands you did yesterday, you might say,
> > "I went to the store yesterday. I had already been to the doctor's."
> >
> > There's also a future perfect tense to indicate a point in the future
> > when something is already in the past, "By next Tuesday, I will have
> > talked to several people about this."
> >
> > And, of course, there is a present perfect, "I have taken care of that."
> > "I have talked to him about this." "He has been a member of NFB for ten
> > years." This is the one which confuses me the most. After all, it's
> > present tense but clearly all of the actions were at least initiated in
> > the past. The best way I can describe the connection here is that the
> > present perfect is used to suggest an ongoing state. It's easy to see it
> > in the sentence in which the man has been a member for ten years. The
> > other sentences present me with a bit more of a challenge to explain.
> > Think of the difference in these sentences: I took care of that
> > problem." "I have taken care of that problem." " Both sentences are
> > correct and essentially have the same meaning. Saying it in the past
> > tense, however, has a sense of fait accompli. Using the present perfect
> > suggests to me that there is still a sense of basking in the
> > accomplishment. With the sentences "I have talked to him about that" and
> > it's simple past cousin "I talked to him about that," the first one
> > conjures up images of an ongoing frustration. "John is having problems
> > with Mark's drinking, and I have talked to Mark about that." It's like
> > the futility is still hanging in the air. If I say, "John is having
> > problems with Marks drinking, I talked to Mark about that," I get the
> > sense that the speaker has either washed their hands of the matter or
> > believes their talk made a difference.
> >
> > These little nuances of meaning and inference -- my interpretation is
> > probably not the same as someone elses's -- are IMO what makes it so
> > challenging to communicate. When we talk face to face or on the phone,
> > our tone of voice, inflection and body language help sort out the
> > subtleties, but the written word stands without such helpers.
> >
> > Perhaps someone else will weigh in on this.
> >
> > In all three perfect tenses, some form of "to have" is used in
> > conjunction with the past participle of a verb.
> > HTH,
> > Donna
> >
> > Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> > http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
> >
> > Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> > http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
> >
> > Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> > http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
> >
> > Follow me on Twitter:
> > www.twitter.com/dewhill
> >
> > Join Me on LinkedIn:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
> >
> > Or, FaceBook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
> >
> > Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> > http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >
> > Apple I-Tunes
> >
> > phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >
> > Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > www.padnfb.org
> >
> >
> > On 6/8/2010 1:50 PM, Angela Fowler wrote:
> > > Whoa, this one's over my head. Obviously the past simple and past
> > > perfect
> > > are forms of the past tense, but what is the difference between the two?
> > > Angela
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Neil Butters
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:06 AM
> > > To:stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [stylist] Past Simple and Perfect Usage
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I have a question about using the past simple and past perfect. I know
> > > that
> > > when a story is told in the past simple, flashbacks or anything else
> > > that
> > > took place previously use the past perfect. But I have read many stories
> > > told in the past simple that abandon that rule in flashback paragraphs.
> > > Typically, the author switches from the perfect to simple in the same
> > > paragraph even though the whole thing describes a past event. Here is an
> > > example from The Last Great Clown Hunt, a story told in the past simple:
> > >
> > > I had glimpsed the stilt dancers only once. Billy Boy and I were
> > > watching
> > > them through a gap in the big top when the shaman caught us. He ran me
> > > off;
> > > he allowed Billy Boy to stay. I still had a hard time picturing Billy
> > > Boy as
> > > one of them. To me he'd always seemed like a clown wannabe.
> > >
> > > So why is the past perfect used in the first sentence, "I had glimpsed,"
> > > but
> > > not in subsequenbt sentences? Why not "Billy Boy and I had watched...?"
> > > Or
> > > "he had allowed...?"
> > >
> > > Thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > > <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Writers Division web site:
> > > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > > <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > > stylist mailing list
> > > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > stylist:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > > http://www.pctools.com/
> > > =======
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======
> > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15170)
> > http://www.pctools.com/
> > =======
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:26:24 -0400
> > From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> > To: LoriStay at aol.com
> > Cc: Stylist <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: [stylist] Fw: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into
> > theUnited States Association of Blind athletes
> > Message-ID: <000701cb07d7$5bbe43b0$3302a8c0 at dell5150>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Great article. Enjoy, JB
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Nancy Lynn
> > To: ACB List ; ccb list ; Mikes Mess List
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 8:52 AM
> > Subject: Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into theUnited States
> > Association of Blind athletes
> >
> >
> > Stephen Kearney was recently inducted into the United States Association
> > of Blind
> > Athletes Hall of Fame.
> > June 8, 2010
> > Longtime educator inducted into Blind Athletes Hall of Fame
> > By Kenton Brooks
> > Phoenix Sports Writer
> > - Stephen Kearney remembers being curious on that first day when he
> > stepped onto
> > the campus for his first day to work at the Oklahoma School for the Blind
> > in Muskogee.
> > "I always wondered where they kept the dogs," he said. "I wanted to know
> > how a guide
> > dog works."
> > But there were no dogs for the children because of their blindness.
> > That day, though, started an association with blind athletes that lasted
> > 38 years
> > until his retirement in 2009. Along the way, he' s traveled around the
> > world to such
> > places such as Greece and China in coaching and working with these special
> > athletes.
> > It also took him to the University of Delaware this past weekend to
> > receive induction
> > into the United States Association of Blind Athletes Hall of Fame. He was
> > the head
> > coach of the gold medal-winning goalball team in the 1984 Paralympics in
> > New York.
> > The Paralympics, held once every four years and two weeks after the
> > Olympics, are
> > multi-sport events for athletes with physical disabilities including
> > blindness. Goalball
> > is a sport where three-member teams try to roll a ball equipped with bells
> > into an
> > opposing team's net.
> > He's had other duties in working at the Paralympics. But coaching that
> > 1984 goalball
> > team to a gold medal will always remain a highlight for Kearney.
> > No other men's team from USA has won gold in the sport since.
> > Oklahoma City native John Cutliff was on the six-member squad that also
> > included
> > athletes from Missouri, Illinois, New Mexico, Kentucky and New Jersey.
> > "I picked the best guys from other teams," the 61-year-old Kearney
> > recalled.
> > Kearney's team rallied from early losses and went through the loser's
> > bracket to
> > beat Egypt for the gold medal in 1984.
> > "Because of the all effort we put in, it was exciting for the guys to
> > accomplish
> > their goal," he said. "It was a great experience."
> > A Tuisa native, Kearney didn't need or have any special training or
> > education to
> > work with blind athletes.
> > "My name was put in with 10 other people at the same time at the
> > (Northeastern State
> > University) placement office," he said. "Our packets were sent to the
> > (School for
> > the Blind) as they were looking to start the recreation program. I was the
> > first
> > resume and V.R. Carter (then the superintendent of the school) called and
> > wanted
> > to know if I wanted a job. I gave myself a half of the year.
> > "I was lucky to be the first on the list. I have no idea why I was. It was
> > an opportunity
> > to do something positive and fun with kids who had disabilities. There
> > wasn't the
> > stress these other coaches get into or how they move school to school. And
> > 38 years
> > later, here I am."
> > Kearney learned about patience over those 38 years.
> > "If you've got vision, you can learn by sight but with these kids, you've
> > got to
> > go through the motions and explain it to them," he said. "Once they get
> > it, it's
> > a pretty neat accomplishment to see them being able to do things and react
> > like anyone
> > else."
> > Kearney, who majored in physical education and business, eventually became
> > the school's
> > wrestling coach.
> > "I didn't know I would go in this direction," he said. "If it hadn't been
> > for the
> > School for the Blind, I wouldn't have been able to travel all over the
> > world like
> > I have. It's been an unique deal, a fun deal. I just happened to be in the
> > right
> > spot. The School for the Blind has been very good to me."
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > stylist mailing list
> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> >
> >
> > End of stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 10
> > ***************************************
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:34:42 -0400
> From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Newman, Robert" <robert.newman at nebraska.gov>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Istanbul, Turkey update
> Message-ID: <4C10F802.5050807 at epix.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi Robert,
> What a wonderful thing -- many wonderful things, really -- you are
> doing! Thanks for sharing. I'm saving these posts in hopes of doing an
> article about it for Suite 101.
> Blessings,
> Donna
>
> Donna's articles on Suite 101:
> http://www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
>
> Free Download: "Love of My Life"
> http://www.passionsandpossibilities.com/guest-blogger-donna-hill-advocate-for-the-blind/
>
> Read my articles on American Chronicle:
> http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3885
>
> Follow me on Twitter:
> www.twitter.com/dewhill
>
> Join Me on LinkedIn:
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dwh99
>
> Or, FaceBook:
> http://www.facebook.com/donna.w.hill.
>
> Hear clips from "The Last Straw" at:
> http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
>
> Apple I-Tunes
>
> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
>
> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> www.padnfb.org
>
>
> On 6/9/2010 4:15 PM, Newman, Robert wrote:
> >
> >
> > Robert Leslie Newman
> > NFB Writers' Division President
> > Division Website- http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > Personal Website- Http://www.thoughtprovoker.infoHI you all, I am sitting out on my front porch, Cabin 22. Today was a shortish day, 13 hours. Yestertday was 14 and Monday was 15.5. (We start off the day at 7:00 AM by having coffie in Capin 21 and laying out the days schedule; each day brings changes and so the next day's schedule always needs adjustments.
> >
> > One big change in today's lineup was squeezing in a 3 hour visit to a new Traffic Park; a newly created training/educational symulation of various types of tipical street crossings, streets and roads; with a tunnel, a round-about, a petdestrion bridge, a hospital, railroad crossing, sidewalks, audible traffic signnal, and more. It is a new effort to teach children (disabled and non-disabled) to travel the streets of Istanbul in full awearness and safty )for both the people walking and driving). And believe it or not, it was all scaled to children! The buildings were kid size; you, or I could stand up in them, but had to duck to get in the door.And -- there were even electric vehicles that you can drive on the streets, to learn proper management of driving on the streets and honoring the walker. (Yeah, I did drive one, it was like a 4 wheeled open sided car with bycicle handlebars instead of a steeringwheel,using my left hand to steer and work the gas lever and had my cane o
> > ut feeling for the curbs; the speed was less than a walking speed.) The project mannager had learned we were in town and invited us to come and check out the place and to try and get us to advise them as to how to train blind children in this park. We did make some obsurvations, but felt that it needed mor time and talked him into hiring one of our students!
> >
> > Two days ago, it was a visit from the Red Cressent(like our Red Cross). This guy wanted our advice on the training of disabled trainees in a new program to put out trained customer service reps to be employed in call centers for the Red Cressent.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is something that is culture shocking- we have 33 students- all but 4 are teachers of the blind. 2 of these non-teachers are blind consumers. One of these is a 33 year old woman. She came to us with no blindness skills what so ever- never used a cane, only went to elementary school, did not know Braille, was not allowed to cook or clean or care for children or -- this lady is anice person, with no life. she lives with her parents. We started training with her on Monday of the first week and worked with her in all our skill areas. At first she was timmid and scared, but game.On Saturday we worked a half day and the students were off on Sunday. Their assignment was to write a pargraphabout what they learn during the first week. On Monday during our evening seminar (8:30-10:30 PM) she shared her paragraph (She spoke it, not having enough Braille yet to write and read it. She said- "All these years, they lyed to me. Everyone told me I could not do anything, because I am b
> > lind. And here I was given nothing but encouragement and I have learned many new skills. I can walk by myself, I can cook. I can learn to read and write Braille. And I can care for a baby (our local cordinator has a 2 month old boy and taught this woman to change him, feed him and care for him)." And yu all know what!? This lady is the sister of one of our first year students, a guy that assisted us on our second training, he is blind, a college grad and works for a privat rehab service and he never even told us he had a older sister that was blind. Woo, wait until she gets home! (Today we left the camp and walked along the Marmera Sea and went about a mile to a Chi House (a tea house). I lead and guess who kept right up with me!?! This newly formed, blossuming blind woman.
> >
> > We have 2 more full days. tommorrow will be another long one- classes until eight and then it is music and dancing. (These peple are wild dancers and love to sing; you get them working or walking and you'll find them singing. And well, Friday will be yet another super long one- At the last of the day- starting at 7:30 PM is the closing cermony and they've hooked the opening of the Camp for summer to our's. They say we can expect 600 people- lots of polititions and others. (Our ceremony was going to be like 300 people- interesting, our program has gotten the attention of the President of Turkey and was placed on one of his watch lists and so where our earlier 2 closings had some local dignitaries (maybe 50 people), this one will have state folks here too.
> >
> > Well, it is going on 11:00 PM Turkey time and we get up at 6:00 and do our staff meeting at 7:00. Enough for now.
> >
> > I'll be home next week this time.
> >
> > Later
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Writers Division web site:
> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
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> > stylist at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> End of stylist Digest, Vol 74, Issue 11
> ***************************************
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