[stylist] Canes and dogs
Judith Bron
jbron at optonline.net
Wed May 11 21:50:55 UTC 2011
I stand corrected. I was discussing this issue with my husband over dinner
and he basically agreed with Marion. There are still cases where I, as an
individual would leave my dog home, but that's just me. Judith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Donna,
> I would like to clarify your statements and, for the sake of this list,
> state that, although it may seem off-topic, as professional or aspiring
> writers, we need to be as well informed as possible, so please indulge me.
> First of all, I will begin at the end of your message. In the interest
> of accuracy, service animals have no rights under the law. Disabled
> individuals have the rights and one of those rights is to be accompanied
> by a service animal, as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act and
> its implementing regulations.
> As I mentioned in the previous post, places of public accommodation are
> required to allow individuals with disabilities accompanied by a service
> animal into any place the general public is allowed unless the presence of
> the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others that
> cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of policies, practices,
> or procedures or is out of control and the handler does not take immediate
> action to control the animal. In the case of a direct threat, the threat
> must be clear and present and not based upon an assumption of such a
> threat. In the case of a hospital, for instance, if visitors, staff, or
> other patients are required to wear protective barriers, such as masks,
> gloves, gowns, etc., it is not reasonable to expect a dog to undergo such
> procedures, so the dog may be excluded. It is no longer a heuristic that
> neo-natal, ICUs, or psychiatric units can exclude a service dog. It must
> be demonstrated that the dog's presence poses a real threat.
> As for the second reason for exclusion - the animal is out of control
> and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the behavior -
> if a dog barks repeatedly in a movie theater or wanders off-leash, an
> entity may exclude the service animal. In either case, the entity must
> allow the person with a disability the option to continue to enjoy the
> goods and services of the entity without the dog being present.
> As for the zoo issue, NAGDU is currently working on that one! many zoos
> have attempted to skirt the ADA by asserting that the USDA, not the DOJ,
> has jurisdiction. I have been in contact with the USDA and am hoping for
> an authoritative reply that will contradict this assertion. Furthermore,
> we are in the process of visiting some zoos that have non-compliant
> policies and will be filing test cases in federal court soon! Stay tuned!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users
> National Federation of the Blind
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>> You write, "If the Maitredee says that dogs are not welcome in a
>> restaurant
>> apologize for bringing him this time, but promise not to bring him
>> again." I
>> think you will find that this sentence and your baby comparison cause a
>> lot
>> of problems with guide dog users. It is illegal, and has been for many
>> years, for any establishment open to the public to deny entrance to those
>> using service animals. Restaurants, motels, grocery stores, hospitals,
>> libraries, sports/concert venues, public transportation and so on have no
>> justifiable excuse for such intolerance, though unfortunately guide dog
>> users still face such discrimination. There are very few acceptions, and
>> Marion would be able to clarify this more accurately than I; neonatal and
>> ICU wards in hospitals come to mind, and I know zoos that prefer guide
>> dogs
>> not be brought into the primate houses. You may exclude a guide dog from
>> your private home -- unless you have opened it as a location for a
>> meeting
>> to which the public is invited. Prior to the ADA, this matter was
>> addressed
>> state by state, but it was addressed. I received a booklet containing the
>> state laws regarding guide dogs when I got my first dog in 1971.
>>
>> It is shocking and offensive, to say the least, to hear a suggestion--
>> especially from a fellow Federationist -- that we apologize and acquiesce
>> to
>> the ignorance of such people. I do hope you will adjust your thinking on
>> this matter. I suppose any piece of information can slip by unnoticed,
>> especially when it is not directly pertenant to an individual, though I
>> am
>> still shocked, as many people who have no reason to personally know this
>> are
>> aware that service dogs are protected from this sort of discrimination by
>> law.
>> Donna
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Judith Bron
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:08 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations where a
>> dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a friend
>> it's
>> appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your guide dog. If
>> you are going to a public place like a restaurant or theater let your
>> mind
>> guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says that dogs are not
>> welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing him this time, but promise
>> not to bring him again. If you are going to the theater or a concert ask
>> friends if your dog might get in the way of others at the event. If yes
>> then let your dog take care of his bodily functions, leave him plenty of
>> water, make sure the heat is on in the winter and the air conditioner in
>> the
>>
>> summer and wait for your ride. For those of you who think I'm not
>> sensitive
>>
>> to guide dog users, let me present an analogy.
>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want to go
>> to a
>>
>> movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys cry. The
>> same
>>
>> goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a gathering of
>> adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby is inappropriate.
>> There is no question that you love your baby and it hurts to be apart
>> from
>> him or her, but you have the freedom to say no to an invitation that
>> would
>> require you to leave your child with a sitter. Judith
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Marion,
>>>
>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so I
>>> know
>>
>>> you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is not the
>>> question
>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a little
>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see that
>>> the
>>> sentence you
>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in several
>>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
>>> discussion.
>>> I won't spend
>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor one, I
>>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather than an
>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed discussions on
>>> other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home and why
>>> it
>>> might not be
>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem that
>>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that way or
>>> regarding a
>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at least
>>> by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for the obvious
>>> issue of how
>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve,
>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide dog to
>>>> a
>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not understood why
>>>>my
>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to describe a
>>>>visit
>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no independent
>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether or
>>>>not
>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
>>>>that,
>>>>if
>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and, therefore,
>>>>has
>>>>no
>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane either.
>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>>>>person
>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe that
>>>> a
>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just as I
>>>>would
>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any other
>>>>tool
>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which the
>>>>tool
>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on a
>>>>nail;
>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have worked
>>>>better
>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's comments,
>>>> it
>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog user
>>>>with
>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am as
>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog. Furthermore, I
>>>>am
>>
>>>>a
>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to maintain
>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked to
>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my guide
>>>>dog.
>>>>I
>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest answer.
>>>>All
>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say, "No!" to
>>>>such
>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>>>>enough
>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is alright;
>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when I am
>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who asserts,
>>>>"If
>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such assertions are
>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that means
>>>>using my cane.
>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane rather
>>>> than
>>>> my
>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is very
>>>>nice.
>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out when it
>>>>is
>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home and
>>>>take
>>>>my
>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate room
>>>>for
>>>>a
>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like to
>>>>imbibe
>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best for
>>>>my
>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>>>>know -
>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but suffice
>>>> it
>>>> to
>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the subject.
>>>>As
>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since I
>>>>was
>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin) If I'm
>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I have
>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not consider a
>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I don't
>>>>think
>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes rum!
>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's all a
>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and white
>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though, so it
>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or some
>>>>rum!
>>>
>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a cane
>>>>> user
>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who has
>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and the
>>>>> other
>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>> magazine
>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see anything
>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might be
>>>>> done
>>>>> in
>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him to
>>>>> be
>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know how to
>>>>> use
>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I thought he
>>>>> was
>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that those
>>>>> of
>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>> understand
>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working together, and
>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I can
>>>>> think
>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice dinner I
>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not return
>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as a
>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't even
>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they drive a
>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they had
>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I mean I
>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or bumping
>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm right
>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's before
>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>
>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to Take
>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come at
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a blind
>>>>>>person
>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip flops
>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to meet
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the host
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to home.
>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do you
>>>>>>need
>>>>>>your
>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle to
>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in the way
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw driver.
>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip flops.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>
>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
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>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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