[stylist] Canes and Dogs
Bridgit Pollpeter
bpollpeter at hotmail.com
Thu May 12 23:03:37 UTC 2011
Judith,
I never said you did or did not agree with anything, I just addressed
your argument and the way it was portrayed.
You seem to be the only one pulling examples into this discussion that
fly out of left field. Screaming bigots in Times Square, crying
children in public places and now airport security "molesting babies."
It just seems like these comments are a stretch.
Again, I guess I need to spell everything out so I'm not wrongly accused
of anything. I'm addressing arguments you made here and not you as a
person, or what your intentions are. I'm simply responding to your
comments and how I perceive them.
You said it is inappropriate to take a guide dog in certain situations.
I merely made a rebuttal stating that no one has a legal right to deny a
guide dog in public places.
I also tried to explain how denying a blind person access to a public
place because of a guide dog is illegal and discriminatory just like if
a person was denied access based on ethnicity.
And I said your argument, not you, your argument, paralleled those who
insist cane users can not take their canes onto a plane. Being a cane
user yourself, I assumed you do not believe this, but based on your
argument made here, it can be said that it is the same as being denied
use of your cane.
I think a lot of misunderstandings on Stylist are because of word choice
and how tone is conveyed, but also, some of us take comments out of
context and interpret them wrongly to be personal attacks, or just
simply do not understand the argument being made.
I do not know you as a person beyond what you say on this list. I can
respond, and react, to comments you make, but I try to not attack anyone
as an individual. This is unfair, and knowing how it feels to be judged
without someone learning who you are, I do not like to make personal
attacks.
I did not address your personal life; I did not attack your work or
character; I did not insinuate you are close-minded and do not afford
others their opinions. A public discussion will have agreements and
disagreements, and disagreements, even if made with passion, are not
automatic judgments on a person's character.
So please do not interpret my comments made about your argument as
personal attacks on your person.
As blind people, I think we all have been through the gambit of
scenarios with our blindness. I've only been blind for 8 years, but
I've encountered all types of attitudes, and I have evolved myself.
None of us have a patent on dealing with perceptions and attitudes
towards blindness. We are in it together.
And of course we are not only blind people. We deal with perceptions
about a plethora of things like gender, religion and race. I always say
that as a woman, we always end up at the bottom of the barrel regardless
of disability or race. Having something else like blindness just adds
another level to our struggle as females to receive equal respect in
this world. As a girl, I'm perceived as more vulnerable especially
since I'm also blind. The attitudes I get are often different than what
my husband gets as a blind male.
So we all understand the struggle for acceptance and equality on some
level. I enjoy these discussions, and it is nice to learn about things
unfamiliar. When we allow our personal feelings to direct comments
towards others on a personal level, we cross over into an inappropriate
defense.
I also think using far-out examples takes the discussion down a bizarre
alley that begins to take us off course. Although, I like it when we
think outside the box. *grin*
Bridgit
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 17:20:16 -0400
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <300363A209294001AAA854B137937F2B at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything else
doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
they've
already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in Florida my in
laws
were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin, resembling an
Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late father in law had
reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the person at the desk
told
them that my mother in law could not stay. They didn't allow people
described with the N word to be guests in their hotel. My father in law
toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's a big difference between a
dog
and a Jew with a darker complexion or a Jew who looks as white as an
Aryian.
Today all public establishments are mandated to allow guide dogs into
their
establishment. However the person using the guide dog has to make their
own
determination as to weather or not they want to take their animal there.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Judith,
> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
> How
> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
feeling
> is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me, that person
knows
> I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are amenable to the
> presence of my dog, I will make the choice based upon this fact. If,
> however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will not bring my dog. I
> believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and they may agree to
let
> me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not do so for fear
that
> they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my approach and, by no means,
do
> I believe this is the only way to handle it. It is my way. I am not
one
> who believes, as I have stated previously, that if you do not accept
my
> dog you don't accept me!
> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
welcome
> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both state
and
> federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual accompanied
by a
> service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health or
safety
> of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of
> policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is out of control and
I
> do not take immediate action to correct the behavior. Period. End of
> Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you would be if a
> restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would attempt to
educate
> them, but if they persisted in their discrimination, they would find
> themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in 33 other states,
> discrimination based upon disability is a criminal offense!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 01:47:38 -0500
From: jack and bakey <braille_cat at jammerman.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID:
<mailman.41.1305219613.15051.stylist_nfbnet.org at nfbnet.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
Well with the caveat that you do so safely! Take my word for it.
Yall do not wanna get run over. I have and do Not recommend it.
Jack
> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Justin Williams" <justin.williams2 at gmail.com
>To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Thu, 12 May 2011 01:30:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>I found that it doesn't matter what mode of mobility to choose to
get from
>point a to point b, just as long as you get there.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Donna Hill
>Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
>To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>Here, here. Well stated, Bridgit. Supporting one another is
allowing for
>different choices and applauding success regardless of the
method.
>Donna
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter
>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 3:50 PM
>To: stylist at nfbnet.org
>Subject: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>At the risk of being taken out of context and accused of
intolerance and
>asserting my way is the only way, I will make a comment on this
topic.
>In fact, perhaps I should point-blank state that I only speak
from my
>personal experience, but I'm not suggesting or implying my way is
best.
>Hopefully this is good enough for some who like to interpret my
post on
>alternative skills as being close-minded and not allowing others
to
>express their opinions.
>For those of us who use a cane, it is the only way we know how to
to
>travel with an independent tool. I learned the cane and have
never used
>a dog- the cane is what I am familiar with. I'm not so arrogant
to
>assume that another method is not as effective though.
>I've met many blind people who believe a dog is not an effective
tool
>nor can a person be truly independent with a dog. These people
are
>ignorant of how a dog is used, and to be honest, anyone unwilling
to be
>open-minded is hurting themselves and society.
>The person who wrote into the editor obviously is a moron who is
>intolerant and probably not a great example of a competent,
positive
>blind person.
>Of course when I make recommendations to people, I will tell them
to use
>a cane with the small metal tip and make sure it is at least up
to their
>chin, but only because this is what I know and what has worked
for me.
>None of us can speak much on any method we are not familiar with.
>My goal is for any blind person to be as independent as possible,
and if
>a dog, or some other method, works to accomplish that for you,
then
>there is nothing wrong with it. Judgment does go both ways, but
no one
>should question a persons motives and claim they can not be
independent
>due to a tool or method. To be honest, I see way to much
judgment and
>intolerance among blind people, especially in the NFB.
>In the Federation, our ultimate goal is suppose to be
independence and
>reaching our full potential. If we are doing that, why should it
matter
>what tools and methods we use?
>I believe officially supporting one tool, method, skill, is just
opening
>the gate to prejudice and judgment. Obviously you have to use
what is
>most efficient, but if you are reaching independence and success,
no one
>should be stating that one way is better, or the only way. We
just
>create more problems by these attitudes.
>I think it was good a response was made to this fools comments.
There
>are cane and dog users who are great, and there are others who
could use
>some help to learn each respective tool better. But don't assume
one is
>better than another. Both are viable, efficient tools when used
>properly.
>Bridgit
>_______________________________________________
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:33:50 -0400
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
Message-ID: <B71ECF4122084DF1A3B439E4F75852E8 at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Bridget, I'm not against dog users or a blind person taking their dog
anywhere they choose. If you read my email last night I said that I
stand
corrected. I never had a problem taking a cane on a plane, but that was
before the TSA decided they had the right to molest babies so that they
could acccompany their parents' on a flight. Bridget, lets not get off
on
the TSA, but there are lots of things that are going on in this world
that
lots of people could say are bigotted towards one group or another.
I've
had to deal with a lot of them. Judith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:22 AM
Subject: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
> Judith,
>
> Standing in the middle of Times Square screaming you hate a certain
> country is a ludicrous analogy to make when discussing when a guide
dog
> user should, and should not, take their dog. Your argument is that
the
> bigot in Times Square looks silly, which means you imply dog users
> appear silly at times. If I were a dog user, I would be offended by
> this rationale.
>
> As many have pointed out on the list, guide dog users have every right
> in this country to take their dog wherever they go. You say there is
an
> appropriate and an inappropriate time to take a dog, but the examples
> you list are not inappropriate environments to take a guide dog.
>
> And one would assume those who frequently use their guide dog
especially
> long-time guide dog users would have no uncomfortable feelings about
> taking their dog in the scenarios listed.
>
> You say, "All I'm saying is that if bringing your dog is inappropriate
> in certain situations perhaps you should think twice before bringing
> it." I think the point is that a guide dog is just like the cane-
there
> is not an inappropriate situation for bringing a guide dog. Yes, yes,
I
> know if it is raining or a friends house may not be the best time, but
> I'm speaking to your examples and all public places.
>
> When we cane users are denied our canes on a flight, we whip out ADA
> guidelines and prepare for some butt kicking. It is the same with a
> dog. Those with guide dogs have every right to bring their trained
> guide dog into any public place. To me, your argument sounds a lot
like
> those who say cane users shouldn't bring their cane for certain
> situations.
>
> It is about independence. Something, I'm afraid to say, not every
> person calling themselves a Federationist truly understands. Guide
dogs
> and canes were developed so blind people could experience true
> independent mobility.
>
> In another post, you say if going to a public place like the theatre,
> you should leave the cane and dog at home and navigate by memory.
What
> if things are rearranged? How do you avoid throngs of people? What
if
> there is an object in your way that is not usually there? Leaving
your
> independent tool at home because it may make those around you
> uncomfortable is insane. And yes, you could use sighted guide, but
> again, what if you need to use the bathroom? What about an emergency
> and you need to leave quickly? I hate standing there unable to move
> much because I'm waiting for sighted assistance.
>
> A dog and cane give us that freedom. No one should ever feel like
they
> can't bring their dog with them, and no one should ever deny a dog
> entrance into a public setting.
>
> Though it may not have been your intent, your post reads as though you
> are uncomfortable with blindness and sticking out in a crowd because a
> guide dog makes people feel awkward. The dog, like the cane, is a
badge
> of independence.
>
> Bridgit
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:23:38 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <B51DFC027FDF4857B74AF0111D3C9CD8 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Donna, I didn't mention shopping, banking or visits to the Utilities
to
> pay
> a bill. Those are public activities in public places. There is no
> reason
> why you can't take your guide dog or baby with you to any of these
> activities. Yes, you have the right to take a dog to the movies,
> theater or
> a restaurant, but if the presence of a dog is going to make you feel
> uncomfortable then why would you want that? I have the civil right to
> stand
> in Times Square and scream, "I hate a certain foreign country!" But
> aside
> from making myself look like an idiot what will be proven? From the
> conversation on this thread most dog users are also proficient in
> travelling
> with a cane. All I'm saying is that if bringing your dog is
> inappropriate
> in certain situations perhaps you should think twice before bringing
> im. ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:34:27 -0400
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
Message-ID: <564C59CD24EB40F6860E705A4B26D325 at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Bridget, read my last post. JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:34 AM
Subject: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
> Judith,
>
> You miss the point of Marion's comments. You said that if a
restaurant
> told you your guide dog is not suppose to be in their establishment
that
> you apologize and promise to not bring it next time.
>
> As pointed out, this is illegal. No public establishments , including
> restaurants, have any right to deny a guide dog unless it poses a
> threat.
>
> So, in your example, the restaurant was verbally saying the dog is not
> allowed.
>
> Based on this, you can replace denying a service animal with an ethnic
> group.
>
> If you are denied access to a public place because of your ethnicity,
> that establishment would be breaking the law. Just like if they deny
> access to a guide dog.
>
> I fail to see the confusion. Either way, the establishment is
> discriminating and denying entrance to a person, which in this country
> is illegal.
>
> True, a guide dog owner has the choice to take or not take their dog,
> but regardless of this, no public place can legally deny a guide dog,
> just like they can not deny service due to race, religion, gender,
> sexual orientation or ethnicity.
>
> Bridgit
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 17:20:16 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <300363A209294001AAA854B137937F2B at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything
else
> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
> they've
> already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in Florida my in
> laws
> were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin, resembling
an
> Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late father in law
had
>
> reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the person at the desk
> told
> them that my mother in law could not stay. They didn't allow people
> described with the N word to be guests in their hotel. My father in
law
>
> toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's a big difference between
a
> dog
> and a Jew with a darker complexion or a Jew who looks as white as an
> Aryian.
> Today all public establishments are mandated to allow guide dogs into
> their
> establishment. However the person using the guide dog has to make
their
> own
> determination as to weather or not they want to take their animal
there.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
>> How
>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
> feeling
>> is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me, that person
> knows
>> I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are amenable to the
>> presence of my dog, I will make the choice based upon this fact. If,
>> however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will not bring my dog.
I
>
>> believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and they may agree to
> let
>> me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not do so for fear
> that
>> they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my approach and, by no
means,
> do
>> I believe this is the only way to handle it. It is my way. I am not
> one
>> who believes, as I have stated previously, that if you do not accept
> my
>> dog you don't accept me!
>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
> welcome
>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both
state
> and
>> federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual accompanied
> by a
>> service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health or
> safety
>> of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of
>> policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is out of control
and
> I
>> do not take immediate action to correct the behavior. Period. End of
>> Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you would be if a
>> restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would attempt to
> educate
>> them, but if they persisted in their discrimination, they would find
>> themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in 33 other states,
>> discrimination based upon disability is a criminal offense!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 07:41:46 -0500
From: Brad Dunse' <lists at braddunsemusic.com>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <130520415778913350 at t14.hostbaby.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>I think perhaps the writer of this old love song pretty
>much summarized the point of this topic.
>When you consider the topic , its not a denomination of travel
>religion, very simpley either you believe you can get there or you
>don't, and how that is done according to your own abilities,
>immediate circumstances, obstacles, safety etc. is personal choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0WDS-EQoIM
Brad
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:53:55 -0400
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <18FFC8E1AAA2401BAF954A2354FFBB53 at marion27df4b2a>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
Judith,
My point in making the analogy of your Judaism is to bring this
issue
into terms more people can understand. Let me offer a true story.
I was leaving my wife's house when we were dating and called for a
cab.
When I got into the cab with my guide dog, the cab driver told me he
would
not transport me because he didn't allow dogs in his cab. We sat in
Merry's
driveway for a half hour as I attempted to convince the driver that all
would be okay and that there was a law that required him to transport
me.
After the half hour, frustrated with his unwillingness to carry me, I
called
the sheriff's office and spoke with the dispatcher who, interestingly
enough, claimed there was no such law. I gave him the statute number and
began quoting the law verbatim, including the penalty clause. (Florida's
law
is a criminal statute.) The driver, realizing he might be in serious
trouble, decided to take me home.
When I arrived home, I again contacted the sheriff's office and
asked
that a deputy come to my home so I could file a report. Again, I was
told
that no law had been broken that was under the jurisdiction of the
sheriff's
office. I again cited and quoted the law to no avail. I finally asked
the
person to have a sergeant contact me.
when the sergeant called he stated that, although he was aware of
the
law, he didn't feel it had been broken because, after all, the driver
did
finally transport me. Here is the actual conversation that ensued.
"Sir, with all due respect, are you African American?"
Yes, but what bearing has that?"
"If you entered a cab and the driver asserted that he would not carry an
African American and it took you a half hour and threats of filing
criminal
charges against him before he would transport you, would you say you
were
discriminated against?"
"I will be right over to take your complaint!"
The case went to court, the driver's attorney asserted that he did
not
violate the law since he did eventually transport me. the driver was
found
guilty of vilating Florida's anti discrimination laws, was fined $500,
and
ordered to serve 20 hours of community service.
The point of all of this is to say that we are more conscious of how
discrimination based upon race, ethnicity, or religion occurs than that
of
disability. If we question the behavior by substituting one of these
other
characteristics and believe it would be discriminatory, we are better
able
to assess those actions as they pertain to us as disabled individuals.
Many blind people will assert, "If they don't want me at that place,
why
should I go?" If blacks were to have said the same thing as it pertains
to
Woolworth's or the Freedom Riders as it pertains to buses and terminals,
where would civil rights be today. BTW, May 16 at 9:00 pm on PBS will be
a
documentary on the Freedom Riders. I believe every blind person should
watch
this program, as it is also part of our heritage! Discrimination, no
matter
what the reason, is offensive and founded in ignorance. As leaders in
the
Federation - and as grass roots members - we must be committed to
removing
the ignorance by every means possible! This includes education, when
appropriate, and litigation when necessary. One of my adages is, "It is
better to educate than to litigate! I will educate when I can and
litigate
when I must!"
Fraternally yours,
Marion
----- Original Message -----
From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything
else
> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
they've
> already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in Florida my in
> laws were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin,
resembling
> an Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late father in
law
> had reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the person at the
desk
> told them that my mother in law could not stay. They didn't allow
people
> described with the N word to be guests in their hotel. My father in
law
> toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's a big difference between
a
> dog and a Jew with a darker complexion or a Jew who looks as white as
an
> Aryian. Today all public establishments are mandated to allow guide
dogs
> into their establishment. However the person using the guide dog has
to
> make their own determination as to weather or not they want to take
their
> animal there.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
How
>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
feeling
>> is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me, that person
>> knows I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are amenable to
the
>> presence of my dog, I will make the choice based upon this fact. If,
>> however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will not bring my dog.
I
>> believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and they may agree to
let
>> me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not do so for fear
that
>> they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my approach and, by no
means, do
>> I believe this is the only way to handle it. It is my way. I am not
one
>> who believes, as I have stated previously, that if you do not accept
my
>> dog you don't accept me!
>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
welcome
>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both
state
>> and federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual
accompanied
>> by a service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health
or
>> safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable
modification
>> of policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is out of control
and
>> I do not take immediate action to correct the behavior. Period. End
of
>> Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you would be if a
>> restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would attempt to
educate
>> them, but if they persisted in their discrimination, they would find
>> themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in 33 other states,
>> discrimination based upon disability is a criminal offense!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations
where
>>> a dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a
friend
>>> it's appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your guide
>>> dog. If you are going to a public place like a restaurant or theater
let
>>> your mind guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says that
>>> dogs are not welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing him this
>>> time, but promise not to bring him again. If you are going to the
>>> theater or a concert ask friends if your dog might get in the way of
>>> others at the event. If yes then let your dog take care of his
bodily
>>> functions, leave him plenty of water, make sure the heat is on in
the
>>> winter and the air conditioner in the summer and wait for your ride.
>>> For those of you who think I'm not sensitive to guide dog users, let
me
>>> present an analogy.
>>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want to
go
>>> to a movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys
cry.
>>> The same goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a
>>> gathering of adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby
is
>>> inappropriate. There is no question that you love your baby and it
hurts
>>> to be apart from him or her, but you have the freedom to say no to
an
>>> invitation that would require you to leave your child with a sitter.
>>> Judith
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>> Marion,
>>>>
>>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so
I
>>>> know you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is
not
>>>> the question
>>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a
little
>>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see
that
>>>> the sentence you
>>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
several
>>>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
>>>> discussion. I won't spend
>>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor
one, I
>>>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather
than an
>>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed
discussions
>>>> on other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home
and
>>>> why it might not be
>>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
that
>>>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that
way
>>>> or regarding a
>>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
>>>> least by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for
the
>>>> obvious issue of how
>>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Steve,
>>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide
dog
>>>>> to a
>>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not
understood
>>>>>why my
>>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to
describe a
>>>>>visit
>>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
independent
>>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether
or
>>>>>not
>>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
>>>>>that, if
>>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and,
therefore,
>>>>>has no
>>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
either.
>>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>>>>>person
>>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
that
>>>>> a
>>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just
as I
>>>>>would
>>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
other
>>>>>tool
>>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which
the
>>>>>tool
>>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on
a
>>>>>nail;
>>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have
worked
>>>>>better
>>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
comments,
>>>>> it
>>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog
user
>>>>>with
>>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am
as
>>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog.
Furthermore, I
>>>>>am a
>>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to
maintain
>>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked
to
>>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my
guide
>>>>>dog. I
>>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest
answer.
>>>>>All
>>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say,
"No!" to
>>>>>such
>>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>>>>>enough
>>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
alright;
>>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when
I am
>>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
asserts,
>>>>>"If
>>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such
assertions
>>>>>are
>>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
>>>>>means
>>>>>using my cane.
>>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane
rather
>>>>> than my
>>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is
very
>>>>>nice.
>>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out
when it
>>>>>is
>>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home
and
>>>>>take my
>>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate
room
>>>>>for a
>>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like
to
>>>>>imbibe
>>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
for
>>>>>my
>>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>>>>>know -
>>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
suffice
>>>>> it to
>>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
subject.
>>>>>As
>>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since
I
>>>>>was
>>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin)
If
>>>>>I'm
>>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I
>>>>>have
>>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not
consider a
>>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I
don't
>>>>>think
>>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
rum!
>>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's
all a
>>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
>>>>> white
>>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though,
so
>>>>>it
>>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or
some
>>>>>rum!
>>>>
>>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a
cane
>>>>>> user
>>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who
has
>>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and
the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>>> magazine
>>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see
anything
>>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might
be
>>>>>> done in
>>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him
to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know
how
>>>>>> to use
>>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I
thought he
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
>>>>>> those of
>>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working
together,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I
can
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
dinner
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not
return
>>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as
a
>>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't
even
>>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they
drive a
>>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
had
>>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I
mean I
>>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
bumping
>>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm
right
>>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
before
>>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to
Take
>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come
at
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
blind
>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip
flops
>>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to
>>>>>>>meet a
>>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
host
>>>>>>>or a
>>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
home.
>>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do
you
>>>>>>>need
>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle
to
>>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in
the
>>>>>>>way at
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
driver.
>>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
flops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.ja
cobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/marion.gwizdala
%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jaco
bson%40visi.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>>> stylist:
>>>>
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ne.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
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>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
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<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:58:03 -0400
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <D6130D434BF24B149A733629505F654D at marion27df4b2a>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Donna,
As for zoos, NAGDU is working with the American Zoological
Association
to offer our resources to assist in creating better policies. Part of
this
is to offer our members to help habituate the animals to the presence of
service dogs. systematic desensitization can help resolve this issue if
the
zoos are willing to take the time to do so. Such is in the best interest
of
all concerned, including the animals!
Fraternally yours,
Marion
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Marion,
> Thanks for pointing out my misstatement implying that the service
animals
> are the ones with the rights. It is indeed important to get it right.
> Also,
> thanks for the update. I'm glad to here the neonatal etc. exclusion is
no
> longer a blanket exclusion. Personally, I don't mind keeping my dog
out of
> the primate house, but having been at many zoos and other animal
exhibits,
> I
> don't think there's any reason for a blanket exclusion.
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:23 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
> Donna,
> I would like to clarify your statements and, for the sake of this
list,
> state that, although it may seem off-topic, as professional or
aspiring
> writers, we need to be as well informed as possible, so please indulge
me.
> First of all, I will begin at the end of your message. In the
interest
> of accuracy, service animals have no rights under the law. Disabled
> individuals have the rights and one of those rights is to be
accompanied
> by
> a service animal, as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act
and
> its
> implementing regulations.
> As I mentioned in the previous post, places of public accommodation
are
> required to allow individuals with disabilities accompanied by a
service
> animal into any place the general public is allowed unless the
presence of
> the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others
that
> cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of policies,
practices,
> or
>
> procedures or is out of control and the handler does not take
immediate
> action to control the animal. In the case of a direct threat, the
threat
> must be clear and present and not based upon an assumption of such a
> threat.
>
> In the case of a hospital, for instance, if visitors, staff, or other
> patients are required to wear protective barriers, such as masks,
gloves,
> gowns, etc., it is not reasonable to expect a dog to undergo such
> procedures, so the dog may be excluded. It is no longer a heuristic
that
> neo-natal, ICUs, or psychiatric units can exclude a service dog. It
must
> be
> demonstrated that the dog's presence poses a real threat.
> As for the second reason for exclusion - the animal is out of
control
> and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the behavior
-
> if
> a dog barks repeatedly in a movie theater or wanders off-leash, an
entity
> may exclude the service animal. In either case, the entity must allow
the
> person with a disability the option to continue to enjoy the goods and
> services of the entity without the dog being present.
> As for the zoo issue, NAGDU is currently working on that one! many
zoos
> have attempted to skirt the ADA by asserting that the USDA, not the
DOJ,
> has
>
> jurisdiction. I have been in contact with the USDA and am hoping for
an
> authoritative reply that will contradict this assertion. Furthermore,
we
> are
>
> in the process of visiting some zoos that have non-compliant policies
and
> will be filing test cases in federal court soon! Stay tuned!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users
> National Federation of the Blind
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>> You write, "If the Maitredee says that dogs are not welcome in a
>> restaurant
>> apologize for bringing him this time, but promise not to bring him
>> again."
>
>> I
>> think you will find that this sentence and your baby comparison cause
a
>> lot
>> of problems with guide dog users. It is illegal, and has been for
many
>> years, for any establishment open to the public to deny entrance to
those
>> using service animals. Restaurants, motels, grocery stores,
hospitals,
>> libraries, sports/concert venues, public transportation and so on
have no
>> justifiable excuse for such intolerance, though unfortunately guide
dog
>> users still face such discrimination. There are very few acceptions,
and
>> Marion would be able to clarify this more accurately than I; neonatal
and
>> ICU wards in hospitals come to mind, and I know zoos that prefer
guide
>> dogs
>> not be brought into the primate houses. You may exclude a guide dog
from
>> your private home -- unless you have opened it as a location for a
>> meeting
>> to which the public is invited. Prior to the ADA, this matter was
>> addressed
>> state by state, but it was addressed. I received a booklet containing
the
>> state laws regarding guide dogs when I got my first dog in 1971.
>>
>> It is shocking and offensive, to say the least, to hear a
suggestion--
>> especially from a fellow Federationist -- that we apologize and
acquiesce
>> to
>> the ignorance of such people. I do hope you will adjust your thinking
on
>> this matter. I suppose any piece of information can slip by
unnoticed,
>> especially when it is not directly pertenant to an individual, though
I
>> am
>> still shocked, as many people who have no reason to personally know
this
>> are
>> aware that service dogs are protected from this sort of
discrimination by
>> law.
>> Donna
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
>> Behalf Of Judith Bron
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:08 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations
where a
>> dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a friend
>> it's
>> appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your guide dog.
If
>> you are going to a public place like a restaurant or theater let your
>> mind
>> guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says that dogs are
not
>> welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing him this time, but
promise
>> not to bring him again. If you are going to the theater or a concert
ask
>> friends if your dog might get in the way of others at the event. If
yes
>> then let your dog take care of his bodily functions, leave him plenty
of
>> water, make sure the heat is on in the winter and the air conditioner
in
>> the
>>
>> summer and wait for your ride. For those of you who think I'm not
>> sensitive
>>
>> to guide dog users, let me present an analogy.
>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want to
go
>> to
>
>> a
>>
>> movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys cry.
The
>> same
>>
>> goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a gathering
of
>> adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby is
inappropriate.
>> There is no question that you love your baby and it hurts to be apart
>> from
>> him or her, but you have the freedom to say no to an invitation that
>> would
>> require you to leave your child with a sitter. Judith
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Marion,
>>>
>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so
I
>>> know
>>
>>> you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is not
the
>>> question
>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a little
>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see
that
>>> the
>>> sentence you
>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
several
>>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
>>> discussion.
>>> I won't spend
>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor
one, I
>>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather than
an
>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed
discussions on
>>> other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home and
why
>>> it
>>> might not be
>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
that
>>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that
way or
>>> regarding a
>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
least
>>> by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for the
obvious
>>> issue of how
>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve,
>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide
dog to
>>>> a
>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not understood
why
>>>>my
>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to describe
a
>>>>visit
>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
independent
>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether
or
>>>>not
>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
>>>>that,
>>>>if
>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and,
therefore,
>>>>has
>>>>no
>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
either.
>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>>>>person
>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
that
>>>> a
>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just as
I
>>>>would
>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
other
>>>>tool
>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which
the
>>>>tool
>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on a
>>>>nail;
>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have
worked
>>>>better
>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
comments,
>>>> it
>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog
user
>>>>with
>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am
as
>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog.
Furthermore, I
>>>>am
>>
>>>>a
>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to
maintain
>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked
to
>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my guide
>>>>dog.
>>>>I
>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest
answer.
>>>>All
>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say, "No!"
to
>>>>such
>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>>>>enough
>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
alright;
>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when I
am
>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
asserts,
>>>>"If
>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such assertions
are
>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
means
>>>>using my cane.
>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane rather
>>>> than
>>>> my
>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is
very
>>>>nice.
>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out when
it
>>>>is
>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home and
>>>>take
>>>>my
>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate
room
>>>>for
>>>>a
>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like
to
>>>>imbibe
>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
for
>>>>my
>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>>>>know -
>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
suffice
>>>> it
>>>> to
>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
subject.
>>>>As
>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since
I
>>>>was
>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin) If
I'm
>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I
have
>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not
consider a
>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I don't
>>>>think
>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
rum!
>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's
all a
>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
white
>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though,
so it
>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or
some
>>>>rum!
>>>
>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a
cane
>>>>> user
>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who
has
>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and the
>>>>> other
>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>> magazine
>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see
anything
>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might be
>>>>> done
>>>>> in
>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him
to
>>>>> be
>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know
how to
>>>>> use
>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I thought
he
>>>>> was
>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
those
>>>>> of
>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>> understand
>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working together,
and
>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I
can
>>>>> think
>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
dinner I
>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not return
>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as
a
>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't
even
>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they drive
a
>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
had
>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I mean
I
>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
bumping
>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm
right
>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
before
>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>
>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to
Take
>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come
at
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
blind
>>>>>>person
>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip
flops
>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to
meet
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
host
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
home.
>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do you
>>>>>>need
>>>>>>your
>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle
to
>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in the
way
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
driver.
>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
flops.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>
>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>>stylist:
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obson
> %
>> 40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Writers Division web site:
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>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:01:36 -0400
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <CF472423B3804118A1E22991BB1F7427 at marion27df4b2a>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Donna,
Another point is that Mr. Hendel, as i have previously stated, has
my
email address. He asked me another question concerning guide dogs in
restaurants. If he truly wanted to ask a question and receive an
authoritative answer, why did he not contact me as he had in the past?
This
all leads me to believe he didn't really ask a question, but couched his
aggression in rhetoric.
Fraternally yours,
Marion
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Hi Marion,
> I think Mr. H's tone is inflammatory, and it is difficult to envision
how
> it
> could be interpreted otherwise. If he wasn't venting and truly had
> questions
> about why guide dog users do certain things, he might have phrased it
like
> this:
>
> Block quote
> I am a white cane user with friends who use guide dogs. Sometimes, I
don't
> understand what's going on, and I don't feel comfortable asking them
> directly. For instance, why do you need to take a guide dog into a
> restaurant? If you're not walking there, how is the dog helping? I'm
not
> saying they shouldn't take their dogs, just confused about how they
are
> being used.
> Block quote end
>
> Just a thought.
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:36 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
> Steve,
> Thank you for your message and explanation. In an effort to keep
the
> thread on topic for this list, I would like to discuss how the words
we
> choose set a tone that might be misinterpreted through the choice of
> words.
> It is my opinion that I did not misinterpret Mr. Hendel's comments.
Not
> only
>
> did he begin by asserting that guide dog users "drag" their dogs to
places
> he believes they should not, he goes on to assert that there is no
need
> for
> a dog in a particular circumstance due to the lack of independent
travel.
> I
> fail to understand how he can make an assertion that going to a
restaurant
> does not involve independent travel, especially after he describes the
> assistance one might receive once arriving. Either one travels
> independently
>
> or, in his words, someone "helps you find a table". It is true that
some
> restaurants escort all of their patrons to a table, but escorting and
> "helping you find a table" are different to me. Again, to keep this
> on-topic
>
> for this list, it is important to choose words that effectively
> communicate
> our intended affect. I believe Mr. hendel either did very well at
> communicating an argumentative, intolerant attitude or completely
missed
> the
>
> mark!
> I would also like to say that I am not one who talks (or writes)
behind
> another's back. Therefore, when I wrote my message to Mr. Hammond, the
> Matilda Ziegler Editor, I copied Mr. Hendel, since he had contacted me
on
> another NAGDU-related issue. Interestingly, it involved an
acquaintance of
> his who uses a guide dog and an issue with a restaurant! As of this
> writing,
>
> Mr. Hendel has not responded to advise me that I misunderstood his
> message.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Marion,
>>
>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so I
>> know
>
>> you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is not
the
>> question
>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a little
>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see that
the
>> sentence you
>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
several
>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
discussion.
>> I won't spend
>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor one,
I
>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather than
an
>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed discussions
on
>> other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home and
why it
>> might not be
>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
that
>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that way
or
>> regarding a
>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
least
>> by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for the
obvious
>> issue of how
>> words can be interpreted.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>
>>>Steve,
>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide dog
to
>>> a
>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not understood
why
>>>my
>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to describe
a
>>>visit
>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
independent
>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether
or
>>>not
>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
that,
>>>if
>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and, therefore,
has
>>>no
>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
either.
>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
person
>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
that a
>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just as
I
>>>would
>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
other
>>>tool
>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which
the
>>>tool
>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on a
>>>nail;
>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have worked
>>>better
>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
comments,
>>> it
>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog user
>>>with
>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am
as
>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog. Furthermore,
I
>>>am
>
>>>a
>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to maintain
>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked to
>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my guide
dog.
>>>I
>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest answer.
All
>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say, "No!"
to
>>>such
>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>>>enough
>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
alright;
>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when I
am
>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
asserts,
>>>"If
>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such assertions
are
>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
means
>>>using my cane.
>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane rather
than
>>> my
>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is very
>>>nice.
>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out when
it
>>>is
>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home and
take
>>>my
>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate room
for
>>>a
>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like to
>>>imbibe
>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
for my
>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
know -
>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
suffice it
>>> to
>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
subject.
>>>As
>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since I
was
>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin) If
I'm
>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I
have
>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not consider
a
>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I don't
>>>think
>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
rum!
>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's all
a
>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
white
>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though, so
it
>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or some
>>>rum!
>>
>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a cane
>>>> user
>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who
has
>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and the
>>>> other
>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>> magazine
>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see anything
>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might be
done
>>>> in
>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him
to be
>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know how
to
>>>> use
>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I thought
he
>>>> was
>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
those
>>>> of
>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>> understand
>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working together,
and
>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I can
>>>> think
>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
dinner I
>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not return
>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as a
>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't even
>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they drive
a
>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
had
>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I mean
I
>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
bumping
>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm right
>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
before
>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>
>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to Take
>>>>>Your
>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come
at
>>>>>this
>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
blind
>>>>>person
>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip flops
>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to
meet
>>>>>a
>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
host or
>>>>>a
>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
home.
>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do you
need
>>>>>your
>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle to
>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in the
way
>>>>>at
>>>>>the
>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
driver.
>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
flops.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>
>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jaco
bson%
> 40visi.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
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%40v
> erizon.net
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
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on%40
> visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:15:40 -0400
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <75EA815871034D85900B3762C673601A at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
Thanks Brad. You brought closure to this issue. I think. Judith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Dunse'" <lists at braddunsemusic.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>>I think perhaps the writer of this old love song pretty much
summarized
>>the point of this topic.
>
>>When you consider the topic , its not a denomination of travel
religion,
>>very simpley either you believe you can get there or you don't, and
how
>>that is done according to your own abilities, immediate circumstances,
>>obstacles, safety etc. is personal choice.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0WDS-EQoIM
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:35:54 -0400
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <AC1B580007374006AB64F0686E97AE81 at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
Marion, You can litigate laws and how people should respond to others,
but
ultimately how a person behaves depends on that person. Some people are
just plain stupid or uneducated to understand. Here's a story that
turhned
out all right, but the amount of stupidity involved is mind boggling.
Years ago I went to a health center for medical care. One day I walked
in,
up to the desk and gave my name and the doctor I had an appointment to
see.
The woman behind the desk said, "Please fill out these forms."
I responded, "I'm sorry, I'm legally blind and unable to fill out the
forms."
She said, "No problem, I'll just put down that you're beligerant and
refuse
to fill them out."
Huh? I told her, "I'm not beligerant and I didn't rrefuse to fill them
out.
I told you I couldn't because I'm legally blind."
She handed me back the clip board and told me to fill them out. I threw
back the clip board. The next thing I knew lots of people, some wearing
little white coats, surrounded me. A man came up to me and asked,
"What's
the problem?"
He asked in that professional tone that makes you suspicious. I asked,
"Who
are you?"
He answered, "I'm a social worker."
I answered, "I am too. What does social work have to do with this?"
He said that I assaulted the woman. He may have been right. I
explained my
disability and that she insisted that I fill out the forms even though
I'm
not capable of it. Another woman came over and filled out the forms for
me.
The questions, if anyone had looked, were already answered in my file.
As I
left the reception area to see the doctor this lady said, "Legally blind
people can fill out forms! My mother is legally blind and drives a
car!"
I simply told her, "Honey, I'm not your mother."
I don't look blind, but my vision has gotten progressively worse since
my
exacerbation. If this person looked in the file or asked my Primary
care
physician she would have been told I'm legally blind. The point to all
of
this is people don't think when they see a white cane, wheelchair or
hearing
aid. Perhaps their reaction reflects an element of fear that if they
get
too close to the person using such aids they might catch whatever that
person has. Perhaps its plain stupidity. I'll never know. Just keep
in
mind that the law might read one thing but if a person is ignorant of
the
law it doesn't matter. Judith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Judith,
> My point in making the analogy of your Judaism is to bring this
issue
> into terms more people can understand. Let me offer a true story.
> I was leaving my wife's house when we were dating and called for a
cab.
> When I got into the cab with my guide dog, the cab driver told me he
would
> not transport me because he didn't allow dogs in his cab. We sat in
> Merry's driveway for a half hour as I attempted to convince the driver
> that all would be okay and that there was a law that required him to
> transport me. After the half hour, frustrated with his unwillingness
to
> carry me, I called the sheriff's office and spoke with the dispatcher
who,
> interestingly enough, claimed there was no such law. I gave him the
> statute number and began quoting the law verbatim, including the
penalty
> clause. (Florida's law is a criminal statute.) The driver, realizing
he
> might be in serious trouble, decided to take me home.
> When I arrived home, I again contacted the sheriff's office and
asked
> that a deputy come to my home so I could file a report. Again, I was
told
> that no law had been broken that was under the jurisdiction of the
> sheriff's office. I again cited and quoted the law to no avail. I
finally
> asked the person to have a sergeant contact me.
> when the sergeant called he stated that, although he was aware of
the
> law, he didn't feel it had been broken because, after all, the driver
did
> finally transport me. Here is the actual conversation that ensued.
>
> "Sir, with all due respect, are you African American?"
> Yes, but what bearing has that?"
> "If you entered a cab and the driver asserted that he would not carry
an
> African American and it took you a half hour and threats of filing
> criminal charges against him before he would transport you, would you
say
> you were discriminated against?"
> "I will be right over to take your complaint!"
>
> The case went to court, the driver's attorney asserted that he did
not
> violate the law since he did eventually transport me. the driver was
found
> guilty of vilating Florida's anti discrimination laws, was fined $500,
and
> ordered to serve 20 hours of community service.
> The point of all of this is to say that we are more conscious of
how
> discrimination based upon race, ethnicity, or religion occurs than
that of
> disability. If we question the behavior by substituting one of these
other
> characteristics and believe it would be discriminatory, we are better
able
> to assess those actions as they pertain to us as disabled individuals.
> Many blind people will assert, "If they don't want me at that
place,
> why should I go?" If blacks were to have said the same thing as it
> pertains to Woolworth's or the Freedom Riders as it pertains to buses
and
> terminals, where would civil rights be today. BTW, May 16 at 9:00 pm
on
> PBS will be a documentary on the Freedom Riders. I believe every blind
> person should watch this program, as it is also part of our heritage!
> Discrimination, no matter what the reason, is offensive and founded in
> ignorance. As leaders in the Federation - and as grass roots members -
we
> must be committed to removing the ignorance by every means possible!
This
> includes education, when appropriate, and litigation when necessary.
One
> of my adages is, "It is better to educate than to litigate! I will
educate
> when I can and litigate when I must!"
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything
else
>> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
>> they've already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in
Florida
>> my in laws were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin,
>> resembling an Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late
>> father in law had reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the
>> person at the desk told them that my mother in law could not stay.
They
>> didn't allow people described with the N word to be guests in their
>> hotel. My father in law toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's
a
>> big difference between a dog and a Jew with a darker complexion or a
Jew
>> who looks as white as an Aryian. Today all public establishments are
>> mandated to allow guide dogs into their establishment. However the
>> person using the guide dog has to make their own determination as to
>> weather or not they want to take their animal there.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Judith,
>>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
How
>>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
>>> feeling is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me,
that
>>> person knows I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are
>>> amenable to the presence of my dog, I will make the choice based
upon
>>> this fact. If, however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will
not
>>> bring my dog. I believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and
they
>>> may agree to let me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not
do
>>> so for fear that they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my
approach
>>> and, by no means, do I believe this is the only way to handle it. It
is
>>> my way. I am not one who believes, as I have stated previously, that
if
>>> you do not accept my dog you don't accept me!
>>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
welcome
>>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both
state
>>> and federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual
>>> accompanied by a service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to
the
>>> health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable
>>> modification of policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is
out
>>> of control and I do not take immediate action to correct the
behavior.
>>> Period. End of Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you
>>> would be if a restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would
>>> attempt to educate them, but if they persisted in their
discrimination,
>>> they would find themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in
33
>>> other states, discrimination based upon disability is a criminal
>>> offense!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations
where
>>>> a dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a
friend
>>>> it's appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your
guide
>>>> dog. If you are going to a public place like a restaurant or
theater
>>>> let your mind guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says
>>>> that dogs are not welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing
him
>>>> this time, but promise not to bring him again. If you are going to
the
>>>> theater or a concert ask friends if your dog might get in the way
of
>>>> others at the event. If yes then let your dog take care of his
bodily
>>>> functions, leave him plenty of water, make sure the heat is on in
the
>>>> winter and the air conditioner in the summer and wait for your
ride.
>>>> For those of you who think I'm not sensitive to guide dog users,
let me
>>>> present an analogy.
>>>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want
to go
>>>> to a movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys
cry.
>>>> The same goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a
>>>> gathering of adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby
is
>>>> inappropriate. There is no question that you love your baby and it
>>>> hurts to be apart from him or her, but you have the freedom to say
no
>>>> to an invitation that would require you to leave your child with a
>>>> sitter. Judith
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Marion,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence
so I
>>>>> know you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that
is
>>>>> not the question
>>>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a
little
>>>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see
that
>>>>> the sentence you
>>>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
>>>>> several ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates
fair
>>>>> discussion. I won't spend
>>>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor
one,
>>>>> I just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather
than
>>>>> an
>>>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed
discussions
>>>>> on other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home
and
>>>>> why it might not be
>>>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
>>>>> that out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in
that
>>>>> way or regarding a
>>>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
>>>>> least by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for
the
>>>>> obvious issue of how
>>>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Steve,
>>>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide
dog
>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not
understood
>>>>>>why my
>>>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to
describe a
>>>>>>visit
>>>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
independent
>>>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning
whether or
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be
argued
>>>>>>that, if
>>>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and,
therefore,
>>>>>>has no
>>>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
>>>>>>either.
>>>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>>>>>>person
>>>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just
as I
>>>>>>would
>>>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
other
>>>>>>tool
>>>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for
which
>>>>>>the tool
>>>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on
a
>>>>>>nail;
>>>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have
worked
>>>>>>better
>>>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
>>>>>> comments, it
>>>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog
user
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I
am as
>>>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog.
Furthermore,
>>>>>>I am a
>>>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to
maintain
>>>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked
to
>>>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under
any
>>>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my
guide
>>>>>>dog. I
>>>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest
answer.
>>>>>>All
>>>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say,
"No!"
>>>>>>to such
>>>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me
well
>>>>>>enough
>>>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
>>>>>>alright;
>>>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when
I
>>>>>>am
>>>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
asserts,
>>>>>>"If
>>>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such
assertions
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
>>>>>>means
>>>>>>using my cane.
>>>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane
rather
>>>>>> than my
>>>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is
very
>>>>>>nice.
>>>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out
when
>>>>>>it is
>>>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home
and
>>>>>>take my
>>>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate
room
>>>>>>for a
>>>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like
to
>>>>>>imbibe
>>>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
for
>>>>>>my
>>>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>>>>>>know -
>>>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
suffice
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
>>>>>>subject. As
>>>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life
since I
>>>>>>was
>>>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin)
If
>>>>>>I'm
>>>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand,
I
>>>>>>have
>>>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not
consider
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I
don't
>>>>>>think
>>>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
>>>>>>rum!
>>>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's
all
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
>>>>>> white
>>>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though,
so
>>>>>>it
>>>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or
some
>>>>>>rum!
>>>>>
>>>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a
cane
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one
who
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and
the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>>>> magazine
>>>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see
anything
>>>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might
be
>>>>>>> done in
>>>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted
him to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know
how
>>>>>>> to use
>>>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I
thought
>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
>>>>>>> those of
>>>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working
together,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I
can
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
dinner
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not
return
>>>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised
as a
>>>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't
even
>>>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they
drive a
>>>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
had
>>>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I
mean I
>>>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
>>>>>>>>>bumping
>>>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm
right
>>>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
before
>>>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to
Take
>>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by
Alena
>>>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I
come at
>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
blind
>>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I
have
>>>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip
flops
>>>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe
to
>>>>>>>>meet a
>>>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
host
>>>>>>>>or a
>>>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
>>>>>>>>home.
>>>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do
you
>>>>>>>>need
>>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle
to
>>>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in
the
>>>>>>>>way at
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
driver.
>>>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
>>>>>>>>flops.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.j
acobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/marion.gwizdala
%40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
obson%40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>> stylist:
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>> stylist mailing list
>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>> stylist:
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
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>
> _______________________________________________
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<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 10:56:06 -0400
From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
Message-ID:
<20110512145613.77AF22F80A2 at relay04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yes, yes, yes! There are those who marvel at the fact that I can tie my
own
shoes while "praising" me for being so independent. There's also the
"you
don't look blind" and "you're doing so well with your handicap; not like
..." Both of these make me feel like they're trying to get me to be a
traitor to my own kind, by culling me from the herd. What? I'm supposed
to
be flattered that you see most blind people as subhuman and I'm just a
little better than that in your estimation? It really aggravates the
heck
out of me. I haven't found an appropriate way to talk/write about this
one.
Dr. Maurer in one of his speeches mentioned that his wife's dentist
asked
who brushed her teeth for her. All I can say is that we have a long,
long
way to go.
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Justin Williams
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 1:30 AM
To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
Well said. Well said. I have walked miles through city; rain or shine;
daye or night. I found that as a blind person, my determination is
looked
at with either awe, or slight resentment. "You are so independent." It
is
a phrase I have often heard. "You don't let your blindness stop you."
of
course not. I mean really, would you sit at home if you were blind I
have
often wondered. I have found that women act as if because I am able to
walk
around by my-self, I don't need them or something so I not worth dating
because they can't mother me. Either I am given too much credit, or not
enough. Any of you folks experience some of this?
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Donna Hill
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
To: cosmoscat at earthlink.net; 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
Hi Kerry,
Good points. I wonder where such a story would lead? In my family, there
are
three blind people with different choices for mobility. I use a guide
dog;
my brother and sister-in-law use canes. We all occasionally go sighted
guide
for one reason or another. Between guide dogs, I use a cane.
We are accepting of one another's choices. My brother often jokes that
when
they start training beagles, he'll get a guide dog. Once when I
questioned
him about his choice many years ago, he took a long sigh and said,
"Donna,
do you see this cane? When I come home from work, I hang it on the back
of
the door, and it doesn't bother me for the rest of the night." His
comments
opened my eyes to the fact that people, even those who genuinely love
dogs,
have a variety of reasons for the choices they make.
I used to think he was less independent than I, because I could tell my
dog
to take me to the bank or store or post office or whatever, and he can't
do
that with his cane. For a time, he would actually say unprovoked that I
was
more independent than he was, but it wasn't true. He had chosen a career
path that took him to the same address every day; I had chosen one that
required me to travel and rarely return to the same location. My
increased
mobility had nothing to do with my ability or his lack of it. If he had
chosen a different path, he would have accomplished his goals as a cane
user.
My brother and sister-in-law know that I love the whole "having a dog"
thing; they also know that I have and can use a cane -- even if I have
named
it Bielsebub. Nowadays, with me living in the middle of nowhere and
totally
dependent on sighted people to drive me to town, there's no doubt in my
mind
that their choice of staying in the city has allowed them to be more
independent.
In my opinion, the reason behind the lack of support which is shown to
people who have made different choices is rooted in the residual
discomfort
they have with their own blindness. I don't exclude myself from this.
With
people being born blind and losing vision gradually or suddenly at every
stage of life, the adjustment and ability to thrive is on a continuum.
We
have all experienced discrimination and in many cases countless
humiliations. Our abilities to fully overcome these is affected by many
things. We're lucky to occasionally find someone who is on the same
section
of the road as we are.
I think that, when you are receiving flack for going sighted guide, it
has
more to do with the judger's lack of independence than your own -- and I
mean mental independence here. Bridgit's story about getting flack for
holding hands with her husband is a rather poignant case in point.
The public perception is largely negative about the ability of blind
people
to be, act, travel or whatever independently. Fighting against this
causes
some of us to categorize other blind people who choose to use a
different
form of mobility as a manifestation of the social stereotype. While it
would
be great for our cause if we could all stand up as one -- equally
independent, equally well-adjusted, equally successful by the world's
and
our own standards and so on -- that's not realistic. It's not Bridgit's
responsibility to make sure every time anyone sees her and her husband
in
public it is obvious that each can travel independently. Similarly, it's
not
your responsibility to refrain from going sighted guide just so no
prejudiced sighted person looks at you and thinks that blind people
"can't
travel independently." It's also not my job to leave my dog home because
someone at a restaurant might not be comfortable with a dog.
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kerry Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 2:13 PM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
Hi friends,
In my limited experience, cane users are often smug and self-righteous,
as the letter writer seems to be, contemptuous of dog users.
To say, for example, that no independent travel occurs in the scenario
described makes no sense at all. Even if the cab draws right up to the
door of the house, it can't draw right up to the door of the restaurant.
The traveler has to make his way across the sidewalk and find the door
of the restaurant. The sidewalk may well be crowded and the cab driver
might or might not be willing to assist. Then, as Bridgid points out,
inside the restaurant the traveler might need to go to the restroom or
(showing my age here) use the pay phone. While the traveler's dinner
companion or a member of the wait staff might be willing or able to
guide the traveler, surely being able to make such excursions
independently would be preferable.
Then, at the end of the evening, as Marion points out, the traveler may
not go straight home.
I don't understand the letter writer's attitude. No matter how you look
at it, the traveler's guide dog is just as necessary to him in the given
scenario as a cane user's cane would be to him in the same situation.
But the letter writer's tone if not perhaps his actual words certainly
seem to imply that a guide dog user is not independent. This is the
attitude I've often seen coming from cane users. And yet, as everyone
here agrees, guide dog use and cane use, and even reliance on a sighted
guide, are all equally valid methods of travel. Which one any given
person chooses depends on the traveler's disposition and needs and, as
Marion and Bridgid each note, on the immediate circumstances.
But, you know, it's a funny thing. Dog users seem in general to be open
to cane use, while cane users seem all too often to be contemptuous of
dog use. It reminds me of a situation in fandom. People who love
Engelbert Humperdink often also like Tom Jones. But Tom Jones fans are
often hostile to Engelbert. The two situations make just about as much,
which is to say as little, sense.
I wonder... Has anyone ever written a story exploring the conflict, for
lack of a more precise word, between cane advocates and dog advocates?
And BTW as a matter of interest, why do both camps look down on those of
us who use sighted guides? I have never felt that leaning on a friend's
or family member's arm diminishes me as a human being.
Kerry
_______________________________________________
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:49:07 -0400
From: "PAUL BAVER" <pebaver at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
Message-ID: <0CC3713C35194F529320B8C424750B05 at DENNEY>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
There you go Brad it couldn't be said more clearly, Paul E Baver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Dunse'" <lists at braddunsemusic.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>>I think perhaps the writer of this old love song pretty much
summarized
>>the point of this topic.
>
>>When you consider the topic , its not a denomination of travel
religion,
>>very simpley either you believe you can get there or you don't, and
how
>>that is done according to your own abilities, immediate circumstances,
>>obstacles, safety etc. is personal choice.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0WDS-EQoIM
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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> stylist at nfbnet.org
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------------------------------
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End of stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13
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