[stylist] dividing blind people into groups

Wed Apr 16 19:22:48 UTC 2014

I think these attitudes exist to this day everywhere. Being married to a
partial, I deal all the time with people treating us differently
including family and friends. And despite the fact that Ross uses
nonvisual tools like a cane and JAWS and Braille, many think he's better
off because he can see a bit. It's very frustrating. And we get those
people who think he cares for me because he's the one with some sight.
And people know I'm a stay-at-home parent who is alone with a small
child for 8 hours a day, and yet many think Ross cares for me. Even
other blind people have said I'm lucky to have a partner who can still
see, and how he can do things for me. As if. So we are not as ahead as
we think about attitudes and perceptions. In our world, sight always
trumps blindness, no matter what you prove, what you do, what you say.
We have a lot of work to do still.

Bridgit

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barbara
Hammel
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 9:58 AM
To: Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

If it was that way by the time I went there, I didn't notice.  The
pervasive 
attitude that those with some vision were more capable was still
definitely 
there.  But from comments I heard from a child who attends a school for
the 
blind out east, those sorts of attitudes must still exist. Barbara

Writing free verse is like playing tennis with the net down.--Robert
Frost -----Original Message----- 
From: Jacobson, Shawn D
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 7:11 AM
To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

The case I heard about in a convention speech was that partials could
take 
the food carts from the cafeteria where most students ate, to the
cottage 
(where the youngest students (five to seven years old) lived and ate.

I also remember that cane travel was taught differently to totally blind

students than to partially sighted ones (no sleep shades).  There was a 
mobility miles contest where you competed to see who walked the most
miles 
with their canes.  For the contest, there were two classes. "Rams" was
the 
class for the totally blind and "Ramblers" was the class for the
partials.

Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley 
Bramlett
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:07 PM
To: Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

really? What types of chores did they give to the partials? That's a
shame 
they did not treat the totals and partials with similar respects.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jacobson, Shawn D
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 12:41 PM
To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

Donna

At the Iowa school for the blind, there were also the chores reserved
for 
the partially sighted that totally blind kids wanted to do.  Mr. Gashel
(who 
also went to Iowa Braille) talked about that in one of the convention 
speeches he gave to the NFB of Maryland.

Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Applebutter 
Hill
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 9:23 PM
To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

Shawn,
I never went to a school for the blind, but to show you how perceptions 
differ, I'm going to share something I heard many years ago. I got my
first 
guide dog in 1971, and there was one other partially sighted person on
my 
class, who actually lived in the town I was living in. She was in her
50s 
and went to Overbrook School for the Blind. She said that the partials
were 
slaves to the staff and were expected to do things for themselves
because 
they had sight and do things for the totally blind kids also. When you
said 
the partials were on top, I couldn't help remembering.
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jacobson,

Shawn D
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 3:14 PM
To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

What I remember from the braille school was that there was a pecking
order 
by how much you could see.  The high partials were generally on top with
the 
totally blind on the bottom.  When we had mobility training there were
the 
totally blind (Rams) and the partially sighted (Ramblers) and they were
in 
different classes for our mobility milers contest.

And then there were the religious differences (mostly Catholic or
Protestant 
or Jewish).

Point being, sighted folk will put us into bins according to their own 
tastes.

Shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Atty Rose
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:46 PM
To: Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

I really don't think I can add anything to Donna's remarks, she said it
so 
well. I just want to say that there is power in numbers. I am one of
those 
who write letters and call my senators and congress-people.  Sometimes
when 
we feel isolated we can feel like we're the only ones, but there is a
whole 
vast group of visually impaired people. And even though we don't always
agree   with one another, we don't have to to stand by one another.

Perhaps we have issues with the NFB, but here we are on their list
talking 
to people who care about what we say.

And if they sent out a notice to call our reps, I'd be dialing away.

Change takes time and Scheril is right about fighting for it. Sometimes
we 
have to take a rest from the battle. I'm resting right now on the NFB
rights 
thing. I am fortunate to belong to a blind group that doesn't care what
you 
see, what your philosaphies are or your life preferences and so I feel 
content doing all I can for them.

The time will come for us to gather a group and approach the upper
eshilons 
of the NFB and speak up again. Maybe we're down but never out.

Life is one long adventure!
Atty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid

> Very eloquently said.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Applebutter Hill
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:31 AM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
>
> Thea,
> I understand your perspective, but I disagree with dividing us up into

> sub-groups. All of the examples you gave are still viewed as blind by 
> the general public. Even more importantly, we are already the smallest

> minority; we are what is referred to as a "low-incidence disability. 
> Because of this and the geographic separation, we are already in a 
> position of not posing much of a threat to the public. We aren't out 
> there protesting regularly, sitting in or even (though I don't 
> recommend this ) throwing rocks. When the calls come for us to write 
> letters to our elected officials, sign petitions and the like, a very 
> small percentage of us actually take action (even if you limit it to 
> the NFB membership). I know for certain that the subset that is 
> willing to take the time out of their busy days to sign a petition, 
> put notices on social media, call Congress, etc. is a diversified 
> group that includes every category you mention. Dividing ourselves is
suicide.
>
> Also, we are essentially expendable, easily overlooked and our issues 
> are at the bottom of the pecking order when it comes to social change.
>
> The goal is to live in a world where blindness is no more of a barrier

> than blonde hair. But, I don't think there are many blind activists 
> who believe that a person can transition from fully sighted to blind 
> without a significant input of work, dedication and perseverance. 
> There is also the shock value of those kind of proclamations, which is

> how everyone else does it. And, the fact that we are discriminated 
> against and that the world isn't opening its arms to welcome us 
> doesn't diminish the truth that, given the proper training and a 
> can-do attitude, blind people can and do flourish despite the barriers

> imposed by a foolish public. Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss 
> Thea
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:48 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
> How the blue blazes can a non-disabled person test for anything 
> regarding the blind, or any other disability? What are people smoking 
> these days? Would you, as a blind person, offer to test for a 
> deaf-user product? Of course you wouldn't. Some people blame certain 
> things on the militant blind, saying they're the ones who made it 
> difficult for the rest of us. If blindness is no more than a nuisance,

> or a characteristic like blond hair, well then, it follows. People 
> with blond hair don't use different technology, so if blindness is 
> truly a mere characteristic like blond hair, as I've heard at the only

> NFB convention I ever went to, then why should it change? We don't 
> need anything. We're rough, tough, independent blind people. Right?
>
> I've always considered blindness a major disability. The day it 
> becomes a mere nuisance or a characteristic like blond hair will be 
> the day when I can get any job, use any computer, drive a car, read 
> any type of print including hand writing, and so forth. Till that day,

> and especially with websites going backwards instead of forwards, I'm 
> afraid I disagree with our more militant friends. I'm not a rough, 
> tough, young independent blind person. I'm on the sunny side of 50, 
> have illnesses and conditions not related to blindness, and frankly, 
> I'm having trouble keeping up with all the changes. I'm doing my best,

> but the last Windows I liked was Windows XP. Not only do I remember 
> text-based DOS and the text adventure games I so much enjoyed, (as an 
> adult in her late twenties), I remember when there were no such things

> as computers. I remember when the most exciting thing I experienced 
> was the Optacon and the talking calculator. I remember the Braille I 
> read in the 70's, and have no idea why they need to unify the whole 
> darn
Braille code.
>
> Gays and lesbians for instance, gained the right to marry and put 
> their spouse under their health insurance at work, and be the next of 
> kin when an emergency happened, and now have many rights they didn't 
> when I was growing up, because they fought for the same things, and 
> they fought in force. One of the complaints I've heard is that the 
> blind community is too busy fighting among themselves and spending 
> their energies whining, etc. The problem with blindness is that it's a

> continuum, not just one condition. Let's say Al's totally blind, never

> so much as seen light, while Tyler sees light and shadows and 
> therefore probably has better mobility. Tessa can see enough to read 
> large print, while Bill can do everything but drive. That's all lumped

> under the general category of blindness. Oh, then there's blind-plus. 
> I.E. Lucy's deaf-blind, Samantha's partially blind and partially deaf,

> and Tiny Tim there, not only uses a wheelchair but is stone cold 
> blind. How does one community address all these needs? Why should the 
> guy who can do everything but drive care about the guy who's never so 
> much as seen light? These men perceive the world totally differently, 
> and their needs are different. I think lumping everyone into the 
> "blindness" community may be filling a small boat with more people 
> than it can handle. I propose the idea that there is a blind 
> community, a partially sighted community, and a blind-plus community. 
> The blind community would comprise totals and those who have so little

> vision, it's not useful to them. Anyway, if we could sort ourselves 
> out, decide what we need, and go after it in force, we could end up 
> getting what we want, couldn't we? Sure, there are more LGBT people 
> than there are blind people, but I'm sure the LGBT community had to 
> work out differences, too. Bisexuals had different needs than 
> transgenders, etc. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. 
> Thea -----Original Message-----
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:15 AM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
> Donna,
>
> I never thought of this but you're absolutely correct. Buildings 
> legally must have so many accessible entrances and bathrooms, but when

> it comes to blind accessibility, it's often lacking. Why are legal 
> standards expected for one disability but not another? Websites and 
> technology should have to adhere to certain standards, and yes, actual

> blind users should be the testers. I get so tired of non-disabled 
> people doing the work, not thinking they need people with a given 
> disability to test, comment and assist.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Applebutter Hill
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 4:19 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
>
> Jim,
> I know what you mean. Getting the most out of our screen readers is a 
> lot of hard work, because every site is different. It can be 
> exceptionally frustrating to spend hours trying to get something done 
> that we know a sighted person can do in ten minutes. Nevertheless, it 
> is what it is, and it's possible to get a lot further than many screen

> reader users get. I get aggravated when blind people ask me to provide

> them with a web address, when they can Google it in the same amount of

> time as I can. It feels sometimes like they don't realize that I had 
> to go through the same grueling and aggravating process they are 
> trying to avoid to get the knowledge I have and that I have to 
> continue struggling every day despite the stress of it, because it's 
> the only way I can get anywhere.
>
> On the other hand, people who want to build a hospital want their 
> building to be accessible to everyone too, and they don't know how to 
> do it either. The difference is that the architects of brick and 
> mortor facilities have to meet standards which are scrutinized by 
> licensing officials prior to one brick being laid. Website designers, 
> whose jobs involve putting 1s and0s in the right places, are on their 
> own. They either don't consider accessibility or they hire someone to 
> test the accessibility who is not a user of the adaptive software on a

> regular basis. It's difficult to force yourself to not notice things 
> if you can see them, and difficult to be conscious of when your sight 
> has influenced something you do with the screen reader. IMO, websites 
> should be tested for accessibility by blind people and some of them 
> should have average screen reader skills.
>
> Also, there are other accessibility issues in addition to screen 
> readers. Sites need to work for people using magnification and voice 
> recognition as well. Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Homme, 
> James
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:16 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
> Hi,
> I do accessibility work a lot. In my experience, most people want to 
> make their stuff accessible. They just don't know what accessibility 
> is, or how it affects people with disabilities. Most people assume, 
> naturally enough, that whoever wants to can simply just use their 
> stuff. And one of my pet peeves is when someone who should know how to

> use their screen reader better complains that something is 
> inaccessible, because they don't want to take the time to use the help

> available to them. We make ourselves look bad when this happens.
>
> Sorry. I'm a little cranky today. I need to do my journaling.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss 
> Thea
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:43 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
> Think I'll document my experiences with Triond on my new blog, then 
> spread it on Social Media like butter on bread. Hahahaha. Thea
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Atty Rose
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 11:33 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
> Hi Thea,
>
> Welcome. I get so frustrated when this happens. If writing letters 
> isn't working and there is no phone, all you can do really put a claim

> against them, or have all your blind friends write them too. I always 
> write a letter if I run into issues. Even if nothing happens I stand 
> up for our comunity. Sometimes it works great! Sometimes I get nothing
back.
>
> All you can do is your best!
>
> Well met,
> Atty
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Miss Thea" <thearamsay at rogers.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 3:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
>
>> Hi, Donna.
>> There is a place where you can upload photos, but it is still 
>> inaccessible, as you have to drag and drop images.
>>
>> All I want is my name in print--a hardcover or paperback with my John

>> Hancock and a great story inside, that people can get lost in. I 
>> don't
>
>> mind doing the work; I don't mind doing hard work. But I DO mind 
>> wasting my time, and there's not even a way for me to express my 
>> displeasure by cancelling my account. I guess I could just let it go,

>> and concentrate on the things I can do, which is why I'm here. Nice 
>> to
>
>> meet you, too. Thea
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Applebutter Hill
>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 8:11 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> Hi Thea,
>> Welcome to Stylist. I wrote for a bunch of online magazines for 
>> years,
>
>> but not this one. I'm thinking of a couple of things.
>>
>> First, what would a person do if they had their own photos? Is there 
>> an uploader? It seems bogus that they would force people to pick and 
>> choose from stock photos and not have an option to upload photos of 
>> their
> own.
>>
>> I'm saying this, because, if there is an uploader that you can use, 
>> there are sites where you can get free, high quality photos that you 
>> could download and then upload to this site. The captions are usually

>> clear enough to get the idea what the photo is, and as long as you 
>> credit the photographer or the group, you can use them without fear.
>>
>> As far as your efforts to bring this to the attention of the site go,

>> it is something we need to do, but it rarely results in positive 
>> changes. I used to write for Suite 101, which had revenue sharing and

>> required a photo with each article. It was accessible until they re 
>> designed their site. I wrote to them many times, and I was assured 
>> that accessibility was a priority for them. They even asked me to do 
>> beta testing on the new site, which I did. Nothing ever changed. 
>> Ultimately they dropped their journalistic standards, such as they 
>> were, and at that point, I really wasn't interested in writing for 
>> them anyway.
>>
>> Suite 101 is a Canadian company, so they don't fall under our laws. 
>> But, the laws we have in the US are not being enforced even on 
>> government websites. The irony to me was that when Suite 101 started 
>> becoming less accessible, I was in the midst of writing a series of 
>> articles on web accessibility.
>>
>> Anyway, it's nice to meet you, and I look forward to getting to know 
>> you. Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss 
>> Thea
>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 5:36 PM
>> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> Hi, everyone.
>> I'm Thea, I just joined the list, and I write all kinds of stuff: 
>> fiction, nonfiction, and fan fiction. I guess that about covers it, 
>> eh? I used to publish articles and short stories on www.triond.com 
>> but
>
>> they require an image with each submission. I had sighted help for a 
>> while, but once the sighted help disappeared, I found I could not use

>> this site because of its image requirement. It's not a Captcha I have

>> to fill in. This site requires, along with the article, your 
>> selection
>
>> of a category, which you can choose from a combo
>> box: health, news, politics, women ... Then after the body of your 
>> article, you add tags. Let's say you've chosen "women". Your tags 
>> could be birth control, birth control devices, IUD, etc. Then there's

>> a question mark where a chosen image should go. You hit the "get 
>> image
>
>> suggestions" button, and images are supposed to present themselves. 
>> At this time, you have to be able to see the image and drag it to the

>> question mark. Last but not least, you have to check the box that 
>> says you are the original creator of this work, and click submit.
>> Piece o' cake ... if you can see.
>> Has anyone ever tried or found some way around this difficulty?
>> The site is www.triond.com
>> My emails to them about this barrier have netted me no response.
>> The site is free, and supposedly, you can create a following, if
>> you're prolific enough, and you can earn money, be it ever so small.
>> I don't mind that. I DO mind this inaccessibility, and the company's
>> apparent lack of interest.
>> Anyone ever tried this www.triond.com While I had sighted help, I
>> published articles and stories, so I have a small portfolio if you
>> like.
>> Now the sighted help is gone, and I'm stuck.
>> Any help appreciated,
>> Thea
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