[stylist] sight

Sat Apr 19 14:45:07 UTC 2014

I got a lot of that. They thought I was faking it, because sometimes I could
see things, and other times I couldn't. No one knew anything about RP in
those days, and I didn't understand how the field restriction was effecting
me for years.
Donna

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Atty Rose
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 10:46 AM
To: Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: [stylist] sight

When I could see everyone thought i could see better than I do. Heck, people
think it now!

It is a funny sort of feeling.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Applebutter Hill" <applebutterhill at gmail.com>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups

> That's the truth, sight trumps blindness, and in some cases, this puts a
> real burden on the one who has some sight. Not because they have to do
> things for a blind person, but because the reality of having tiny bits of
> sight is a hinderance to developing nonvisual skills. I don't know how
> Ross
> feels about this, but it's been a big deal in my life. You're constantly
> told to "use your eyes" even when they are terribly unreliable. I'm much
> more comfortable getting around in the dark when my residual vision isn't
> fighting for my conscious attention.
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit
> Pollpeter
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:23 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> I think these attitudes exist to this day everywhere. Being married to a
> partial, I deal all the time with people treating us differently including
> family and friends. And despite the fact that Ross uses nonvisual tools
> like
> a cane and JAWS and Braille, many think he's better off because he can see

> a
> bit. It's very frustrating. And we get those people who think he cares for
> me because he's the one with some sight.
> And people know I'm a stay-at-home parent who is alone with a small child
> for 8 hours a day, and yet many think Ross cares for me. Even other blind
> people have said I'm lucky to have a partner who can still see, and how he
> can do things for me. As if. So we are not as ahead as we think about
> attitudes and perceptions. In our world, sight always trumps blindness, no
> matter what you prove, what you do, what you say.
> We have a lot of work to do still.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barbara
> Hammel
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 9:58 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
>
> If it was that way by the time I went there, I didn't notice.  The
> pervasive
> attitude that those with some vision were more capable was still
> definitely
> there.  But from comments I heard from a child who attends a school for
> the
> blind out east, those sorts of attitudes must still exist. Barbara
>
>
>
>
> Writing free verse is like playing tennis with the net down.--Robert Frost
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacobson, Shawn D
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 7:11 AM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> The case I heard about in a convention speech was that partials could take
> the food carts from the cafeteria where most students ate, to the cottage
> (where the youngest students (five to seven years old) lived and ate.
>
> I also remember that cane travel was taught differently to totally blind
>
> students than to partially sighted ones (no sleep shades).  There was a
> mobility miles contest where you competed to see who walked the most miles
> with their canes.  For the contest, there were two classes. "Rams" was the
> class for the totally blind and "Ramblers" was the class for the partials.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
> Bramlett
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:07 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> really? What types of chores did they give to the partials? That's a shame
> they did not treat the totals and partials with similar respects.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacobson, Shawn D
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 12:41 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> Donna
>
> At the Iowa school for the blind, there were also the chores reserved for
> the partially sighted that totally blind kids wanted to do.  Mr. Gashel
> (who
> also went to Iowa Braille) talked about that in one of the convention
> speeches he gave to the NFB of Maryland.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Applebutter
> Hill
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 9:23 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> Shawn,
> I never went to a school for the blind, but to show you how perceptions
> differ, I'm going to share something I heard many years ago. I got my
> first
> guide dog in 1971, and there was one other partially sighted person on my
> class, who actually lived in the town I was living in. She was in her 50s
> and went to Overbrook School for the Blind. She said that the partials
> were
> slaves to the staff and were expected to do things for themselves because
> they had sight and do things for the totally blind kids also. When you
> said
> the partials were on top, I couldn't help remembering.
> Donna
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jacobson,
>
> Shawn D
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 3:14 PM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> What I remember from the braille school was that there was a pecking order
> by how much you could see.  The high partials were generally on top with
> the
> totally blind on the bottom.  When we had mobility training there were the
> totally blind (Rams) and the partially sighted (Ramblers) and they were in
> different classes for our mobility milers contest.
>
> And then there were the religious differences (mostly Catholic or
> Protestant
> or Jewish).
>
> Point being, sighted folk will put us into bins according to their own
> tastes.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Atty Rose
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:46 PM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> I really don't think I can add anything to Donna's remarks, she said it so
> well. I just want to say that there is power in numbers. I am one of those
> who write letters and call my senators and congress-people.  Sometimes
> when
> we feel isolated we can feel like we're the only ones, but there is a
> whole
> vast group of visually impaired people. And even though we don't always
> agree   with one another, we don't have to to stand by one another.
>
> Perhaps we have issues with the NFB, but here we are on their list talking
> to people who care about what we say.
>
> And if they sent out a notice to call our reps, I'd be dialing away.
>
> Change takes time and Scheril is right about fighting for it. Sometimes we
> have to take a rest from the battle. I'm resting right now on the NFB
> rights
> thing. I am fortunate to belong to a blind group that doesn't care what
> you
> see, what your philosaphies are or your life preferences and so I feel
> content doing all I can for them.
>
> The time will come for us to gather a group and approach the upper
> eshilons
> of the NFB and speak up again. Maybe we're down but never out.
>
> Life is one long adventure!
> Atty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>
>
>> Very eloquently said.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Applebutter Hill
>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:31 AM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>>
>> Thea,
>> I understand your perspective, but I disagree with dividing us up into
>
>> sub-groups. All of the examples you gave are still viewed as blind by
>> the general public. Even more importantly, we are already the smallest
>
>> minority; we are what is referred to as a "low-incidence disability.
>> Because of this and the geographic separation, we are already in a
>> position of not posing much of a threat to the public. We aren't out
>> there protesting regularly, sitting in or even (though I don't
>> recommend this ) throwing rocks. When the calls come for us to write
>> letters to our elected officials, sign petitions and the like, a very
>> small percentage of us actually take action (even if you limit it to
>> the NFB membership). I know for certain that the subset that is
>> willing to take the time out of their busy days to sign a petition,
>> put notices on social media, call Congress, etc. is a diversified
>> group that includes every category you mention. Dividing ourselves is
> suicide.
>>
>> Also, we are essentially expendable, easily overlooked and our issues
>> are at the bottom of the pecking order when it comes to social change.
>>
>> The goal is to live in a world where blindness is no more of a barrier
>
>> than blonde hair. But, I don't think there are many blind activists
>> who believe that a person can transition from fully sighted to blind
>> without a significant input of work, dedication and perseverance.
>> There is also the shock value of those kind of proclamations, which is
>
>> how everyone else does it. And, the fact that we are discriminated
>> against and that the world isn't opening its arms to welcome us
>> doesn't diminish the truth that, given the proper training and a
>> can-do attitude, blind people can and do flourish despite the barriers
>
>> imposed by a foolish public. Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss
>> Thea
>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:48 AM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> How the blue blazes can a non-disabled person test for anything
>> regarding the blind, or any other disability? What are people smoking
>> these days? Would you, as a blind person, offer to test for a
>> deaf-user product? Of course you wouldn't. Some people blame certain
>> things on the militant blind, saying they're the ones who made it
>> difficult for the rest of us. If blindness is no more than a nuisance,
>
>> or a characteristic like blond hair, well then, it follows. People
>> with blond hair don't use different technology, so if blindness is
>> truly a mere characteristic like blond hair, as I've heard at the only
>
>> NFB convention I ever went to, then why should it change? We don't
>> need anything. We're rough, tough, independent blind people. Right?
>>
>> I've always considered blindness a major disability. The day it
>> becomes a mere nuisance or a characteristic like blond hair will be
>> the day when I can get any job, use any computer, drive a car, read
>> any type of print including hand writing, and so forth. Till that day,
>
>> and especially with websites going backwards instead of forwards, I'm
>> afraid I disagree with our more militant friends. I'm not a rough,
>> tough, young independent blind person. I'm on the sunny side of 50,
>> have illnesses and conditions not related to blindness, and frankly,
>> I'm having trouble keeping up with all the changes. I'm doing my best,
>
>> but the last Windows I liked was Windows XP. Not only do I remember
>> text-based DOS and the text adventure games I so much enjoyed, (as an
>> adult in her late twenties), I remember when there were no such things
>
>> as computers. I remember when the most exciting thing I experienced
>> was the Optacon and the talking calculator. I remember the Braille I
>> read in the 70's, and have no idea why they need to unify the whole
>> darn
> Braille code.
>>
>> Gays and lesbians for instance, gained the right to marry and put
>> their spouse under their health insurance at work, and be the next of
>> kin when an emergency happened, and now have many rights they didn't
>> when I was growing up, because they fought for the same things, and
>> they fought in force. One of the complaints I've heard is that the
>> blind community is too busy fighting among themselves and spending
>> their energies whining, etc. The problem with blindness is that it's a
>
>> continuum, not just one condition. Let's say Al's totally blind, never
>
>> so much as seen light, while Tyler sees light and shadows and
>> therefore probably has better mobility. Tessa can see enough to read
>> large print, while Bill can do everything but drive. That's all lumped
>
>> under the general category of blindness. Oh, then there's blind-plus.
>> I.E. Lucy's deaf-blind, Samantha's partially blind and partially deaf,
>
>> and Tiny Tim there, not only uses a wheelchair but is stone cold
>> blind. How does one community address all these needs? Why should the
>> guy who can do everything but drive care about the guy who's never so
>> much as seen light? These men perceive the world totally differently,
>> and their needs are different. I think lumping everyone into the
>> "blindness" community may be filling a small boat with more people
>> than it can handle. I propose the idea that there is a blind
>> community, a partially sighted community, and a blind-plus community.
>> The blind community would comprise totals and those who have so little
>
>> vision, it's not useful to them. Anyway, if we could sort ourselves
>> out, decide what we need, and go after it in force, we could end up
>> getting what we want, couldn't we? Sure, there are more LGBT people
>> than there are blind people, but I'm sure the LGBT community had to
>> work out differences, too. Bisexuals had different needs than
>> transgenders, etc. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
>> Thea -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bridgit Pollpeter
>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:15 AM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> Donna,
>>
>> I never thought of this but you're absolutely correct. Buildings
>> legally must have so many accessible entrances and bathrooms, but when
>
>> it comes to blind accessibility, it's often lacking. Why are legal
>> standards expected for one disability but not another? Websites and
>> technology should have to adhere to certain standards, and yes, actual
>
>> blind users should be the testers. I get so tired of non-disabled
>> people doing the work, not thinking they need people with a given
>> disability to test, comment and assist.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Applebutter Hill
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 4:19 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>> I know what you mean. Getting the most out of our screen readers is a
>> lot of hard work, because every site is different. It can be
>> exceptionally frustrating to spend hours trying to get something done
>> that we know a sighted person can do in ten minutes. Nevertheless, it
>> is what it is, and it's possible to get a lot further than many screen
>
>> reader users get. I get aggravated when blind people ask me to provide
>
>> them with a web address, when they can Google it in the same amount of
>
>> time as I can. It feels sometimes like they don't realize that I had
>> to go through the same grueling and aggravating process they are
>> trying to avoid to get the knowledge I have and that I have to
>> continue struggling every day despite the stress of it, because it's
>> the only way I can get anywhere.
>>
>> On the other hand, people who want to build a hospital want their
>> building to be accessible to everyone too, and they don't know how to
>> do it either. The difference is that the architects of brick and
>> mortor facilities have to meet standards which are scrutinized by
>> licensing officials prior to one brick being laid. Website designers,
>> whose jobs involve putting 1s and0s in the right places, are on their
>> own. They either don't consider accessibility or they hire someone to
>> test the accessibility who is not a user of the adaptive software on a
>
>> regular basis. It's difficult to force yourself to not notice things
>> if you can see them, and difficult to be conscious of when your sight
>> has influenced something you do with the screen reader. IMO, websites
>> should be tested for accessibility by blind people and some of them
>> should have average screen reader skills.
>>
>> Also, there are other accessibility issues in addition to screen
>> readers. Sites need to work for people using magnification and voice
>> recognition as well. Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Homme,
>> James
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:16 AM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> Hi,
>> I do accessibility work a lot. In my experience, most people want to
>> make their stuff accessible. They just don't know what accessibility
>> is, or how it affects people with disabilities. Most people assume,
>> naturally enough, that whoever wants to can simply just use their
>> stuff. And one of my pet peeves is when someone who should know how to
>
>> use their screen reader better complains that something is
>> inaccessible, because they don't want to take the time to use the help
>
>> available to them. We make ourselves look bad when this happens.
>>
>> Sorry. I'm a little cranky today. I need to do my journaling.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss
>> Thea
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:43 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> Think I'll document my experiences with Triond on my new blog, then
>> spread it on Social Media like butter on bread. Hahahaha. Thea
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Atty Rose
>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 11:33 AM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>> Hi Thea,
>>
>> Welcome. I get so frustrated when this happens. If writing letters
>> isn't working and there is no phone, all you can do really put a claim
>
>> against them, or have all your blind friends write them too. I always
>> write a letter if I run into issues. Even if nothing happens I stand
>> up for our comunity. Sometimes it works great! Sometimes I get nothing
> back.
>>
>> All you can do is your best!
>>
>> Well met,
>> Atty
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Miss Thea" <thearamsay at rogers.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 3:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>
>>
>>> Hi, Donna.
>>> There is a place where you can upload photos, but it is still
>>> inaccessible, as you have to drag and drop images.
>>>
>>> All I want is my name in print--a hardcover or paperback with my John
>
>>> Hancock and a great story inside, that people can get lost in. I
>>> don't
>>
>>> mind doing the work; I don't mind doing hard work. But I DO mind
>>> wasting my time, and there's not even a way for me to express my
>>> displeasure by cancelling my account. I guess I could just let it go,
>
>>> and concentrate on the things I can do, which is why I'm here. Nice
>>> to
>>
>>> meet you, too. Thea
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Applebutter Hill
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 8:11 PM
>>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>
>>> Hi Thea,
>>> Welcome to Stylist. I wrote for a bunch of online magazines for
>>> years,
>>
>>> but not this one. I'm thinking of a couple of things.
>>>
>>> First, what would a person do if they had their own photos? Is there
>>> an uploader? It seems bogus that they would force people to pick and
>>> choose from stock photos and not have an option to upload photos of
>>> their
>> own.
>>>
>>> I'm saying this, because, if there is an uploader that you can use,
>>> there are sites where you can get free, high quality photos that you
>>> could download and then upload to this site. The captions are usually
>
>>> clear enough to get the idea what the photo is, and as long as you
>>> credit the photographer or the group, you can use them without fear.
>>>
>>> As far as your efforts to bring this to the attention of the site go,
>
>>> it is something we need to do, but it rarely results in positive
>>> changes. I used to write for Suite 101, which had revenue sharing and
>
>>> required a photo with each article. It was accessible until they re
>>> designed their site. I wrote to them many times, and I was assured
>>> that accessibility was a priority for them. They even asked me to do
>>> beta testing on the new site, which I did. Nothing ever changed.
>>> Ultimately they dropped their journalistic standards, such as they
>>> were, and at that point, I really wasn't interested in writing for
>>> them anyway.
>>>
>>> Suite 101 is a Canadian company, so they don't fall under our laws.
>>> But, the laws we have in the US are not being enforced even on
>>> government websites. The irony to me was that when Suite 101 started
>>> becoming less accessible, I was in the midst of writing a series of
>>> articles on web accessibility.
>>>
>>> Anyway, it's nice to meet you, and I look forward to getting to know
>>> you. Donna
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss
>>> Thea
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 5:36 PM
>>> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>
>>> Hi, everyone.
>>> I'm Thea, I just joined the list, and I write all kinds of stuff:
>>> fiction, nonfiction, and fan fiction. I guess that about covers it,
>>> eh? I used to publish articles and short stories on www.triond.com
>>> but
>>
>>> they require an image with each submission. I had sighted help for a
>>> while, but once the sighted help disappeared, I found I could not use
>
>>> this site because of its image requirement. It's not a Captcha I have
>
>>> to fill in. This site requires, along with the article, your
>>> selection
>>
>>> of a category, which you can choose from a combo
>>> box: health, news, politics, women ... Then after the body of your
>>> article, you add tags. Let's say you've chosen "women". Your tags
>>> could be birth control, birth control devices, IUD, etc. Then there's
>
>>> a question mark where a chosen image should go. You hit the "get
>>> image
>>
>>> suggestions" button, and images are supposed to present themselves.
>>> At this time, you have to be able to see the image and drag it to the
>
>>> question mark. Last but not least, you have to check the box that
>>> says you are the original creator of this work, and click submit.
>>> Piece o' cake ... if you can see.
>>> Has anyone ever tried or found some way around this difficulty?
>>> The site is www.triond.com
>>> My emails to them about this barrier have netted me no response.
>>> The site is free, and supposedly, you can create a following, if
>>> you're prolific enough, and you can earn money, be it ever so small.
>>> I don't mind that. I DO mind this inaccessibility, and the company's
>>> apparent lack of interest.
>>> Anyone ever tried this www.triond.com While I had sighted help, I
>>> published articles and stories, so I have a small portfolio if you
>>> like.
>>> Now the sighted help is gone, and I'm stuck.
>>> Any help appreciated,
>>> Thea
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
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